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Featured Proof ALL does not mean all men

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Scott Downey, Nov 12, 2020.

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  1. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 4
    New King James Version
    Walk in Unity
    1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called,
    2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love,
    3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

    4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;

    5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    Jesus told the unbelieving Jews, God was not their FATHER. So when you read of ALL in the new covenant having to do in context with believers, it means ALL of THEM only, not also ALL of the unbelieving world.

    John 8,
    Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
     
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  2. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    The ones that didn't hear Jesus were the ones who were not listening and learning of the Father ..Its as simple as that .You could say those that are learning from reformed teachers are not learning of the bible .
     
  3. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Amen, Scott.

    I clearly see that the reason that many people who physically hear God's words don't "hear" ( believe ) them, is because God is not their Father and they don't have ears to hear ( Matthew 11:15 and many others ).
    Per John 8:43-47, they are of their father the devil, and the lusts of their father they will do.
    Two examples in Scripture that I see God being selective in His treatment of sinners is in Matthew 11:27, while another is in Matthew 13:10-11.

    In Matthew 11:27Jesus Christ reveals God the Father to whomsoever He wills, not to whomsoever we will.
    Specifically stated,
    No man knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and to whomsoever the Son reveals Him to.

    In Matthew 13:10-11 ( aa well as Mark 4:10-12 and Luke 8:9-10 ), Jesus point-blank tells the disciples why He is speaking to the unbelieving Jews in parables...
    Because it was given to the disciples to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God,
    but to those without ( outside of the spiritual body of Christ, or the kingdom of God ), all things are done in parables;

    Why?
    So that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
    Then when I read 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 and I see it telling me that the reason the Spirit is given to believers is so that they might know the things that are freely given to them of God, I count myself blessed to have even been given the privilege to know the Lord.:Notworthy



    So... when I read the Scriptures, I understand that "all" often does not mean all men,
    but that it is contextual depending on who is being addressed or spoken to or about in any passage or letter.

    Many times in my studies I see that "all" means "all that are among you", with respect to believers only.
    I could give specific examples, but I think you already know many of them.
    One is, "to all that be in Rome.." and it further clarifies in as one reads along.
    Another is Ephesians 1:1-2, which addresses the Ephesians as well as all of the faithful in Christ.

    It is for these "ears" that the letters were addressed.



    May God bless you in your continued studies,
    and may you always remember that he is ready, willing and able to deliver you out of all your afflictions in this life, my friend.
     
    #3 Dave G, Nov 12, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2020
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  4. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Yes, God fathers His children according the Holy Spirit, not according to the flesh. The WORLD, FLESH, DEVIL are all tightly bound together. Believers get freed from that entanglement.
    Those in that tangled web are caught by the devil to do his will, only God can grant repentance, they wont repent unless begotten again as a new creation, the old creation is not sufficient to hold Christ in the heart. New Wine cant be poured into OLD Wineskins

    Born again is according to His mercy alone, through the word of God, not according to our words (what we say or confess about Christ).

    1 Peter 1:3
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    1 Peter 1:23
    having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
     
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  5. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I do not see your proof that "all" does not mean All.It's seems ridiculous to say the word does not mean what it clearly means. If you say all the ducks then I know you're speaking of ducks only with no chickens involved. Yet it still means all it just doesn't include Chickens. If it says all men that is exactly what it means. If the word is by it's self it's meaning still means the same thing The word is all inclusive
    MB
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    You are only the 1000th person to come on this board and make that argument. Its needless but yall do it anyway.
     
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  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    @Scott Downey :

    As a good example of "all" not meaning "each and every man, woman and child who ever lived",
    I'd like to use this:

    " But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."
    ( 2 Peter 3:9 ).

    I remember being taught this as a "proof text" for "God not being willing that any of mankind perish,
    but that they all come to repentance" while I was growing up after I'd believed on Christ during the preaching of His word in 1978;
    But it wasn't until recently ( about 5-7 years ago ) that it hit me during my studies...
    The "us-ward" is referring to the "beloved" in verse 8, while the "any" and "all" are in context with the "usward".

    In other words, when the verse is placed back into the text and read in continuity,
    the context doesn't bear out that the "usward" is all men, but all the "beloved" and any of the them.
     
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  8. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Proof Christ died for the sheep, the beloved brethren, similar to what Peter says.
    Paul specifically has in mind the church of believers here, it is in the meaning of 'our'
    Paul is not talking of evangelizing unbelievers here.

    1 Corinthians 15
    New King James Version
    1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

    58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
     
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  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    paul context was indeed towards those now saved in Christ!
     
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  10. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Here's how I understand that in the context that is given in John 8:

    [1] In chapter 8, Jesus is teaching in the Temple area [verse 20].

    [2] There are Pharisees there challenging him as usual, claiming Jesus' testimony of himself was invalid, and questioning who/where Jesus' Father was. [verses 12 - 19]

    [3] Jesus tells the Pharisees that they are going to look for him, but will die in their sin and that where he goes they cannot come. He further explains that unless they believe on him, their worldliness will make them die in their sins. He is giving them an opportunity to trust him and put their faith in him. Jesus continues to tell them that when they crucify him - THEN they will understand who he is. [verses 21-29]

    [4] And Jesus did not lie. Some of the Pharisee WERE saved after they killed him. [At some point after his resurrection and before the book of Acts. [See Acts 15:5]

    [5] At that moment some did believe him and put their faith in him.
    [verse 30]

    [6] THEN he speaks to the ones who BELIEVED him, but apparently did not quite understand everything. [verse 31]

    [7] Jesus explains to those who believed him that IF.....IF......IF they hold to his teachings, THEN they will know the truth and it will set them free [salvation - they weren't saved yet]. They didn't understand. They told him that they were already free because they were Abraham's descendants. Jesus explains about slavery to sin. And Jesus explains that they do not have the same father, but that they DO obey their father. [verses 31-38]

    [8] They STILL don't understand - these Pharisees who believed what he said when he told them upon his crucifixion that they would "get it". And they definitely don't understand at all the relationship between Christ and his Father and themselves and their "father". And while he is addressing those who believed him - his message is for ALL of them - those who "believed him" about his crucifixion and those stubbornly fighting him.

    [9] So, they tell Jesus that Abraham is their father - once more claiming spiritual success by being a Jew. Jesus explains that they aren't behaving like Abraham would have behaved. So they "switch the subject" [like the woman at the well did] and NOW tell Jesus that the ONLY Father they have is God. [verses 39-41]

    [10] Hence, Jesus having to teach here that their father is the devil. He says that this is why his own language is not clear to them - [both those who believed his words and those who didn't] The group he is speaking to is now comprised of men who are fighting against him and those who are fighting to understand fully but are having to battle traditions of men entrenched in their hearts. [verses 42-47]

    They continue and call him a Samaritan [a slur], demon-possessed. and they demand to know who he thinks he is. And Jesus continues to tell them.

    ......................................................................................................

    Jesus TOLD this group that when he was crucified, they would "get it". And some were saved after that. If not, Acts 15:5 would not be true.

    The message of "your father is the devil and you obey him, stop being worldly or you will die in your sins, you must believe who I say I am to live, and if you heed my teachings, you will be set free [saved]" was for all there. But not all responded then or later with submission to those teachings. Some did and will be in heaven. Some did not and will spend eternity in hell.
     
    #10 Scarlett O., Nov 12, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2020
  11. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    People only hear Christ when they are of God. The refers to being regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
    So anyone regenerated will then have the ears to hear what the Spirit expressly says. Including jewish people.

    John 8:47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
    OF GOd --hear God and Christ, as in harkon and obey the gospel of Christ.
    Not OF God, your deaf to God, you turn away and wont listen, meaning you will never believe in Christ. Jesus is telling these unbelievers, they as not of God, since if they were of God, they would love HIM, but they hate HIM or are indifferent and dont care.

    John 8:42
    Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

    anyway this is a little off topic from my original post
     
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  12. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    You don't see how he is talking to both in the gathering of Pharisees? What about the Pharisees saved in Acts 15?

    I didn't think you'd understand what I was saying. I try to stay off of all C/A. I am neither a C nor an A, and I can only read the scriptures in context where Jesus was talking to those didn't believe and those who did, but still had GROSS misunderstanding based on their traditions of men.

    Didn't you see where he said "IF you believe teaching and "you WILL understand when I am crucified." Not all of those Pharisees were later saved but many were. Some of the same ones to whom he said that their father was devil.

    You and I were lost and bound to split hell wide open once. God saved us. Who do you believe our father was when we were hell-bound? Who did we imitate? What lies of the devil did we believe?

    I believe God snatched us from that. That's what makes salvation so profound, so awesome, and so humbling.
     
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  13. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    “For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ…” (1 Thess. 5:9).

    Another scripture showing that the 'us' will obtain salvation while the others, (unbelievers appointed to wrath), versus the church appointed to be saved.

    The 'us' here being who Christ died for, verse 10, not the world did Christ die for. The purpose of Christ dying for 'us' is so that we should live together with Him.
    Christ died for a purpose to bring us to God, not for an indefinite purpose, not for a potential purpose.

    1 Thessalonians 5
    1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
     
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  14. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Another proof Christ died for a purpose, that he died to bring the 'us' to God.
    'us' here is the church to whom Peter writes. Peter is not writing to the unbelieving world.

    1 Peter 3:17-19
    New King James Version
    17 For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

    18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
    19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
     
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  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What about, every, Romans 14:11, "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
    And in Philippians 2:10-11, "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
     
  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    They weren't listening because they didn't have ears to hear. That's not from Reformed teachers, that's straight from Scripture.
     
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  17. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure??
     
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  18. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    things in heaven -- those in heaven
    things in earth --those living on earth
    things under the earth -- those in hell

    All will confess Christ is the Lord, even in hell they will do that
    Acts 15
    v14 God visited the gentiles to take out from them a people for His name. Leaving the rest alone.
    v17 God intends all the gentiles whom He calls, that they will seek the Lord and be saved.
    the later part of v17 signifies who are mentioned in the first part of the verse, and it is not for every single gentile person, just them He calls.
    The Lord is the cause of these gentiles doing the seeking for Him. Not that they sought God on their own.
    v18, God determined all that He would do from ancient days long past, long before any of us existed, from eternity past.

    Acts 15
    12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had [c]become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

    16 ‘After this I will return
    And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
    I will rebuild its ruins,
    And I will set it up;
    17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
    Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
    Says the Lord who does all these things.’
    18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.
     
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  19. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The same word has different usages, man.

    Love not the World, for God so Loved the World.

    What do you say?, that you can't just pick a word up out of the Bible and say it means what it means to you.

    It means what God Said for it to mean, by comparing Scripture with Scripture.

    Saying, "Love not the World, for God so Loved the World" and that YOU KNOW WHAT THE WORD 'WORLD' MEANS, FOR SURE, WITHOUT COMPARING, IS Ig0Nor0Ant.

    'All' does not mean 'all' in the daily Newspaper.

    What happened to Langage and being Literate?

    I beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called,
    2 with
    all >> Total Jesus Perfection?

    It says, "all".


    "you" in verse 1 is "you" in verse 6.

    5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

    6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in
    you all.

    Compare verse 1 & 6. That is the context.

    Even verse 2 isn't saying "all" human beings without exception are to have the Spiritual ability to walk with "any" much less completely "ALL of The Fulness of The Godhead" 2 "with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love,
    3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."
     
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  20. robustheologian

    robustheologian Well-Known Member
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    Honestly, very few people argue that "all" means all universally? "All" means what the context demands. While there is a good amount of scripture where "all" means all in a category, there's also scripture where "all" means all. But I do agree that in most of the scriptures non-Calvinists point to as supporting the application of God's death to everyone, it hardly ever means everyone.
     
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