Proof that damnation sure can follow salvation!

[evangelist-7]

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

In this metaphor of the true vine, the gardener and the branches, Jesus stated,
“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away” (v. 2)
and that the branches are to “abide in me, and I in you” (v. 4).
“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned” (v. 6)

This passage provides a wonderful picture of the believers union with Christ.
We need to note the Greek tenses for the use of “abide” (ESV, Gk. meno)
and the immediate context in this passage. These are:
“Abide in me” (v.4) – a constative aorist imperative, which “may regard the action
[to abide] in its entirety” (Dana & Mantey, 1927/1955, p. 194; Robertson,1932, p. 258).
“Unless it abides in the vine” (v. 4). Present tense, continuous action, i.e. continues to abide.
“Unless you abide in Me” (v. 4). Present tense, continuous action.
“He who abides in Me, and I in him” (v. 5). Present tense, continuous action.
“If anyone does not abide in Me” (v. 6), Present tense, continuous action.

The interpretation is straightforward. We, in union with Christ, are commanded to abide
(remain) in union with Christ and that will continue as long as we continue to abide in Him.
This is not speaking of a Christian who is commanded to abide in Christ as an instant action
and that guarantees one’s eternal state. The eternal salvation state is guaranteed
only as long as the believer continues to abide/remain in union with Christ.

“John thus uses the verb ‘abide’ [remain] to express the need for disciples to continue in
their personal commitment to Jesus; the abiding of Jesus in them is not an automatic process
which is independent of their attitude of Him, but is the reverse side of their abiding in Him.
Just as men are summoned to believe in Jesus, so they are summoned to abide in Jesus,
i.e. to continue believing” (I. Howard Marshall, cited in Ashby, 2002, p. 180).

By use of this vine and gardener metaphor,
John 15:6 makes it clear that the believer who does not continue to abide in Christ,
is thrown away like a branch, gathered up and cast into the fire to burn.
What clearer analogy to damnation, after salvation, could be made?

“Jesus as the vine will fulfil his part of the relation as long as the branches
keep in vital union with him” (Robertson, 1932, p. 258).

Remaining “in me [Jesus]” (v. 6), “shows that his primary thought was of apostate Christians
… An unfaithful Christian suffers the fate of an unfruitful branch”
(C. K. Barrett, cited in Ashby, 2002, p. 180).

FRom ... http://spencer.gear.dyndns.org/2012/10/23/once-saved-always-saved-or-once-saved-lost-again-2/
.

 

[Yeshua1]

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

In this metaphor of the true vine, the gardener and the branches, Jesus stated,
“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away” (v. 2)
and that the branches are to “abide in me, and I in you” (v. 4).
“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned” (v. 6)

This passage provides a wonderful picture of the believers union with Christ.
We need to note the Greek tenses for the use of “abide” (ESV, Gk. meno)
and the immediate context in this passage. These are:
“Abide in me” (v.4) – a constative aorist imperative, which “may regard the action
[to abide] in its entirety” (Dana & Mantey, 1927/1955, p. 194; Robertson,1932, p. 258).
“Unless it abides in the vine” (v. 4). Present tense, continuous action, i.e. continues to abide.
“Unless you abide in Me” (v. 4). Present tense, continuous action.
“He who abides in Me, and I in him” (v. 5). Present tense, continuous action.
“If anyone does not abide in Me” (v. 6), Present tense, continuous action.

The interpretation is straightforward. We, in union with Christ, are commanded to abide
(remain) in union with Christ and that will continue as long as we continue to abide in Him.
This is not speaking of a Christian who is commanded to abide in Christ as an instant action
and that guarantees one’s eternal state. The eternal salvation state is guaranteed
only as long as the believer continues to abide/remain in union with Christ.

“John thus uses the verb ‘abide’ [remain] to express the need for disciples to continue in
their personal commitment to Jesus; the abiding of Jesus in them is not an automatic process
which is independent of their attitude of Him, but is the reverse side of their abiding in Him.
Just as men are summoned to believe in Jesus, so they are summoned to abide in Jesus,
i.e. to continue believing” (I. Howard Marshall, cited in Ashby, 2002, p. 180).

By use of this vine and gardener metaphor,
John 15:6 makes it clear that the believer who does not continue to abide in Christ,
is thrown away like a branch, gathered up and cast into the fire to burn.
What clearer analogy to damnation, after salvation, could be made?

“Jesus as the vine will fulfil his part of the relation as long as the branches
keep in vital union with him” (Robertson, 1932, p. 258).

Remaining “in me [Jesus]” (v. 6), “shows that his primary thought was of apostate Christians
… An unfaithful Christian suffers the fate of an unfruitful branch”
(C. K. Barrett, cited in Ashby, 2002, p. 180).

FRom ... http://spencer.gear.dyndns.org/2012/10/23/once-saved-always-saved-or-once-saved-lost-again-2/
.

And jesus said hell, damnation in this passage where?

 

[evangelist-7]

And jesus said hell, damnation in this passage where?

Sorry, folks, I'm still workin' on a similar cartoon character where the guy is laughing hysterically!
When 'tis finished, I'm be usin' it on all of Jeshua1's posts.
.

 

[SolaSaint]

How do you regain salvation once lost?

 

[webdog]

The OP would do well in reading Secrets Of The Vine by Bruce Wilinson

 

[Deacon]

Evan7 - you've shown you are interested in studying scripture.

Once you've studied a passage and made an interpretation you might continue your study by checking your result against other commentators.

There are plenty of older commentaries offered on the net but don't neglect checking out modern commentaries that are available in part on Google Books.

I think you'll find that you're missing something here.

Rob

 

[BobRyan]

How do you regain salvation once lost?

Romans 11 "quite right they were cut off for unbelief and you stand only by your faith... He is able to graft them in AGAIN IF they do not continue in unbelief"

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18 - forgiveness revoked - also found in Ezek 18 -- is the end of OSAS.

And as for John 15 in this thread - "you are severed from Christ... Fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4 and the cutting off of John 15 - and burned in the fire. Same thing.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gup20]

Romans 11 "quite right they were cut off for unbelief and you stand only by your faith... He is able to graft them in AGAIN IF they do not continue in unbelief"

I hope you realize these were cut off because they didn't have faith, not because they failed in a work. They were cut off for "unbelief" not for failure to keep a law. This echos what Paul says in the first 3 verses of Galatians 3 - that salvation is not obtained through works, and therefore cannot be lost or modified (perfected) through works.

 

[The Biblicist]

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

In this metaphor of the true vine, the gardener and the branches, Jesus stated,
“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away” (v. 2)
and that the branches are to “abide in me, and I in you” (v. 4).
“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned” (v. 6)

This passage provides a wonderful picture of the believers union with Christ.
We need to note the Greek tenses for the use of “abide” (ESV, Gk. meno)
and the immediate context in this passage. These are:
“Abide in me” (v.4) – a constative aorist imperative, which “may regard the action
[to abide] in its entirety” (Dana & Mantey, 1927/1955, p. 194; Robertson,1932, p. 258).
“Unless it abides in the vine” (v. 4). Present tense, continuous action, i.e. continues to abide.
“Unless you abide in Me” (v. 4). Present tense, continuous action.
“He who abides in Me, and I in him” (v. 5). Present tense, continuous action.
“If anyone does not abide in Me” (v. 6), Present tense, continuous action.

The interpretation is straightforward. We, in union with Christ, are commanded to abide
(remain) in union with Christ and that will continue as long as we continue to abide in Him.
This is not speaking of a Christian who is commanded to abide in Christ as an instant action
and that guarantees one’s eternal state. The eternal salvation state is guaranteed
only as long as the believer continues to abide/remain in union with Christ.

“John thus uses the verb ‘abide’ [remain] to express the need for disciples to continue in
their personal commitment to Jesus; the abiding of Jesus in them is not an automatic process
which is independent of their attitude of Him, but is the reverse side of their abiding in Him.
Just as men are summoned to believe in Jesus, so they are summoned to abide in Jesus,
i.e. to continue believing” (I. Howard Marshall, cited in Ashby, 2002, p. 180).

By use of this vine and gardener metaphor,
John 15:6 makes it clear that the believer who does not continue to abide in Christ,
is thrown away like a branch, gathered up and cast into the fire to burn.
What clearer analogy to damnation, after salvation, could be made?

“Jesus as the vine will fulfil his part of the relation as long as the branches
keep in vital union with him” (Robertson, 1932, p. 258).

Remaining “in me [Jesus]” (v. 6), “shows that his primary thought was of apostate Christians
… An unfaithful Christian suffers the fate of an unfruitful branch”
(C. K. Barrett, cited in Ashby, 2002, p. 180).

FRom ... http://spencer.gear.dyndns.org/2012/10/23/once-saved-always-saved-or-once-saved-lost-again-2/
.

What you don't get is that there are a variety of ways that a child of God is "in him."

1. Positionally - judicial by justification
2. Regeneratively- creative act of God - Eph. 2:10
3. Progressively - sanctification - Col. 2:6
4. Purposely - elected before world began - Eph. 1:4
5. Representatively - metaphorically by membership in local church - 1 Cor. 12:27

Context must determine the precise application. This context is about FRUIT PRODUCTION. It is not about regeneration, judicial, elective or representativly but about progressively where production depends totally upon the present progressive incompleted action of "abiding" in him through the power of the Holy Spirit - on going "walk".

Fire is consistent with failure to produce fruit in a Christians's life (1 Cor. 3:15). Complete dependence is consistent with fruit production ("without me ye can do NOTHING) in a Christians life by walking in the Spirit.

Furthermore, look at the consequences for successful fruit production - joy, answered prayer, closer fellowship, etc. but not one word about ENTRANCE INTO HEAVEN!

This is talking about a Christians "walk" IN HIM and its benefits and consequences of failure. Cutting off and burning is part of the growth process as whatever time is not being redeemed (Eph. 5:16) is wasted, lost, burnt forever (1 Cor. 3;16).

 

[Yeshua1]

What you don't get is that there are a variety of ways that a child of God is "in him."

1. Positionally - judicial by justification
2. Regeneratively- creative act of God - Eph. 2:10
3. Progressively - sanctification - Col. 2:6
4. Purposely - elected before world began - Eph. 1:4
5. Representatively - metaphorically by membership in local church - 1 Cor. 12:27

Context must determine the precise application. This context is about FRUIT PRODUCTION. It is not about regeneration, judicial, elective or representativly but about progressively where production depends totally upon the present progressive incompleted action of "abiding" in him through the power of the Holy Spirit - on going "walk".

Fire is consistent with failure to produce fruit in a Christians's life (1 Cor. 3:15). Complete dependence is consistent with fruit production ("without me ye can do NOTHING) in a Christians life by walking in the Spirit.

Furthermore, look at the consequences for successful fruit production - joy, answered prayer, closer fellowship, etc. but not one word about ENTRANCE INTO HEAVEN!

This is talking about a Christians "walk" IN HIM and its benefits and consequences of failure. Cutting off and burning is part of the growth process as whatever time is not being redeemed (Eph. 5:16) is wasted, lost, burnt forever (1 Cor. 3;16).

Many have seen in these passages truths that when the father lifts up and prunes the unproductive branch, means it cuts it back in order to have itget productive fruit produced again, cleans it off and gets rid of the "junk" blocking it from fruit producing!

Also, ANY branches that get 'cut off" are ones like in romans, that were NOT really part of the Vine,imposters, and had to be cast out in order to allow ral branches to get grafted in and established!