Prophets and the Wearing of Hats

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eliyahu: 1 Cor 11:
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head(=Jesus Christ).

HP: What does the list perceive ‘prophesying’ to consist of? There is a NT verse that states, “Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.” In light of these verses and many more related ones, what do you think? Are there prophets today, if so what is their function and should they or should they not wear a hat while in the discourse of their duties?

PS: Has anyone heard or seen anything of a pretty lady in a funky hat sporting a light mustache? :laugh: :tonofbricks:

 

[BobRyan]

In the NT we have several examples of prophets - Agabus for example predicts the sufferings of Paul and Simon and Anna in the temple are given prophetic vision into the mission of Christ.

Numbers 12
6 He said, ""Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream.

In 1Cor 14 we see that we should desire earnestly spiritual gifts but "especially that YOU may prophesy". And then we are told that this unique gift is under God's complete control so that IF one standing is relating a revelation and one sitting is suddenly given one -- the one standing must STOP and yield to the one who has just been given a revelation.

That would be "total chaos" in the watered down definition for prophecy so commonly used today.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

HP: What does the list perceive ‘prophesying’ to consist of? There is a NT verse that states, “Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.” In light of these verses and many more related ones, what do you think? Are there prophets today, if so what is their function and should they or should they not wear a hat while in the discourse of their duties?

PS: Has anyone heard or seen anything of a pretty lady in a funky hat sporting a light mustache? :laugh: :tonofbricks:

Hi HP!

I didn't know that you were referring to me.( There was no chime bell!)

I think Jesus was taliking about Neviim ( Prophets) and Tora( Law in Mt 11:13.

As for the prophets after the Cross we can read Ephesians 4:11, 1 Cor 12:28, 14:31-2, and some Acts verses.
Those are mentioned as Gifts of God given by Lord Jesus when and after He ascended on high.

The Whole Bible is prophesying, the OT prophesied the first coming of Jesus Christ, then NT prophesies the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ had three offices or 3 missions to accomplish on this earth.

He was a prophet and taught the Truth while He was on earth.
Then He offered Himself as a sacrifice to perform His duty as the High Priest.

Then He is coming as King of Kings. Only the third office has not been fulfilled and therefore we are the witnesses and the prophets preaching the Gospel.

Therefore any sermon in the church is deemed to be prophesying.

1 Cor 14:32 the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
Ye must prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be comforted. ( v 31)

Got it? then take off the hat while the sermon is preached, and let your wife wear any hat or covering during the sermon, which are the teachings in 1 Cor 11:1-16.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eliyahu: Therefore any sermon in the church is deemed to be prophesying.

1 Cor 14:32 the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
Ye must prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be comforted. ( v 31)

Got it? then take off the hat while the sermon is preached, and let your wife wear any hat or covering during the sermon, which are the teachings in 1 Cor 11:1-16.

HP: What I was hoping would happen is that we might be able to see into the different ways people look at this issue. You and I happen to basically agree. Some commentators take prophesy as far as to apply to any who are singing in the assembly. If we are offering up our songs to the Lord, I see why it could not be included in praying and prophesying as well, thus being instructed to take off our hats as men as we enter the assembly and are in the act of worshipping our Head, Christ Jesus.

Is there anyone out there that would say that this was just a local cultural problem Paul was addressing, or that the verses mentioned about men removing their head coverings do not apply to us today for whatever reasons?

I know that in the Cowboy Church circles the minister and others exhorting often wear hats, just taking them off when they are praying. I hope that there might be a Cowboy minister on the list that wears his hat in the pulpit that would share with us the freedom he evidently believes he has to wear a hat while prophesying.

 

[Eliyahu]

HP: What I was hoping would happen is that we might be able to see into the different ways people look at this issue. You and I happen to basically agree. Some commentators take prophesy as far as to apply to any who are singing in the assembly. If we are offering up our songs to the Lord, I see why it could not be included in praying and prophesying as well, thus being instructed to take off our hats as men as we enter the assembly and are in the act of worshipping our Head, Christ Jesus.

Is there anyone out there that would say that this was just a local cultural problem Paul was addressing, or that the verses mentioned about men removing their head coverings do not apply to us today for whatever reasons?

I know that in the Cowboy Church circles the minister and others exhorting often wear hats, just taking them off when they are praying. I hope that there might be a Cowboy minister on the list that wears his hat in the pulpit that would share with us the freedom he evidently believes he has to wear a hat while prophesying.

1. We do have our sisters wearing the hats or coverings while they are singing in the church.

2. I haven't seen any Cow Boy church yet, and saw no one wearing hat while preaching the sermon.

3. As for Cultural question, I have answered already in other threads.
Basically, when Paul explained the teachings on Head Covering, he pointed out the reasons why men should not wear the hats, and why women should wear the head-coverings. He didn't mention any cultural reasons at all, but mentioned that the Head of Christ is God the Father, Head of Men is Christ, Head of Woman is Man. Then when he explained about the women's covering, he mentioned the order of the creation and the relationship with angels.

Therefore the Head-Covering is not related to the cultural customs or traditions, but to the Head-ship of the persons, and to the Creation and to the relationship with the angels.
Are God, Creation, Angels the cultural matters?

Many churches have deviated from the church truth too much and cannot understand the teachings which the Early Church followed and kept.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eliyahu 1. We do have our sisters wearing the hats or coverings while they are singing in the church.

HP: Agreed. Paul tells us that if a women’s head is not covered she dishonors her head, so whether singing, prophesying, or praying she would be in order as I read the Scriptures.

Eliyahu: 2. I haven't seen any Cow Boy church yet, no one wearing hat while preaching the sermon.

HP: I have, and currently on a regular every sermon basis.

Eliyahu: 3. As for Cultural question, I have answered already in other threads.
Basically, when Paul explained the teachings on Head Covering, he pointed out the reasons why men should not wear the hats, and why women should wear the head-coverings. He didn't mention any cultural reasons at all, but mentioned that the Head of Christ is God the Father, Head of Men is Christ, Head of Woman is Man. Then when he explained about the women's covering, he mentioned the order of the creation and the relationship with angels.

HP: Well stated as far as I can read. I was just trying to play the advocate role of one that might think that it was a simple cultural issue associated with a specific congregation or time period. I cannot see that it was cultural either.

Eliyahu: Therefore the Head-Covering is not related to the cultural customs or traditions, but to the Head-ship of the persons, and to the Creation and to the relationship with the angels.
Are God, Creation, Angels the cultural matters?

HP: Again, I personally agree with you, and God, angels, and creation are not simply ‘cultural issues.’

Eliyahu: Many churches have deviated from the church truth too much and cannot understand the teachings which the Early Church followed and kept.

HP: What is surprising to me is the level of truth I have observed coming from the pulpit, yet a seeming total disregard to this issue of men wearing a head covering in the assembly while prophesying etc. I am having a bit of a hard time knowing just what significance this issue has overall, and if it is worth myself and my family suffering public humiliation before having my head served up on a platter for having the audacity to even consider bringing up the issue in a 'Cowboy Church?'

Was that a chicken crowing that I heard, or wisdom speaking? :laugh:

 

[Eliyahu]

HP: I have, and currently on a regular every sermon basis.



HP: What is surprising to me is the level of truth I have observed coming from the pulpit, yet a seeming total disregard to this issue of men wearing a head covering in the assembly while prophesying etc. I am having a bit of a hard time knowing just what significance this issue has overall, and if it is worth myself and my family suffering public humiliation before having my head served up on a platter for having the audacity to even consider bringing up the issue in a 'Cowboy Church?'

Was that a chicken crowing that I heard, or wisdom speaking? :laugh:

It is quite interesting to hear about such practices or the reality of Cow Boy Church.
Though I did mention the least commandments cannot be broken ( Mt 5:19) I understand the reality is often beyond the control of the believers. In that case I cannot say anything about the question.

However, when I hear the problem with the Head-Covering, then I often hear the other problems too, such as Mono-Pastoral system, Women's preaching at the Pulpit, or Ordaining the Pastors from colleges of Theology, without checking the qualifications according to 1 Tim 3:1-7.

Often the disobedience to the commandments are connected each other, then it is a whole system of the disobedience to the commandments. In such case I cannot say very much.
The Head-Covering is not the matter of Salvation, but the matter of Obedience after the Salvation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eliyahu: The Head-Covering is not the matter of Salvation, but the matter of Obedience after the Salvation.

HP: Pray for me as I come to your mind that I might use wisdom when and if the Lord would have me to address the issue with them.

 

[Eliyahu]

HP: Pray for me as I come to your mind that I might use wisdom when and if the Lord would have me to address the issue with them.

Yes, I will. I do understand the difficulties of this kind of matter, and therefore you need to be well prepared with Biblical teachings abundantly. Lord will recognize your interest in this teaching.

 

[BobRyan]

Therefore any sermon in the church is deemed to be prophesying.

Let us see if that holds up to scripture

In the NT we have several examples of prophets - Agabus for example predicts the sufferings of Paul and Simon and Anna in the temple are given prophetic vision into the mission of Christ.

Numbers 12
6 He said, ""Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream.

In 1Cor 14 we see that we should desire earnestly spiritual gifts but "especially that YOU may prophesy". And then we are told that this unique gift is under God's complete control so that IF one standing is relating a revelation and one sitting is suddenly given one -- the one standing must STOP and yield to the one who has just been given a revelation.

That would be "total chaos" in the watered down definition for prophecy so commonly used today.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

As for Prophesy, I have found the following verses in NT.

AC 2:17-18

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Ac 21:9
And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
Ro 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
1Co 13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 14:1
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:24
But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
1Co 14:31
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Re 10:11
And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
Re 11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

(All Bible quotes are from www.crosswalk.com)



In Other Words, we are encouraged to prophesy according to the Bible and according to the Holy Spirit.

As I said, all Bible teachings are prophesying the first coming of Jesus and the second coming of Jesus. Even though we study the OT, we are studying the prophesies made in OT times.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: I appreciate the input from all. The issue seems to be centered upon what exactly is prophesy. Are you, BR, saying that it is your opinion that preaching is not prophesying? Just to let you know, the jury must be still out in my mind. I sure did not stand up and expound to those Cowboys the Word of God and their error in wearing their hats in church and in the pulpit today. :laugh: I sure did not wear one, but that is my personal conviction. Is it wrong, according to Scripture, to 'preach' with ones head covered as a man?

Let’s say I was a street corner preacher in the winter with a bald head. Would it be improper or in violation of NT admonitions to wear a hat in those conditions?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

How about a good word study on the word prophet or prophesy? Is preaching prophesy? Is the meaning of prophesy broad enough to encompass preaching, exhorting etc.? Does it even matter if one wears a hat if the truth is clearly being proclaimed?

 

[BobRyan]

HP: I appreciate the input from all. The issue seems to be centered upon what exactly is prophesy. Are you, BR, saying that it is your opinion that preaching is not prophesying?

I find no example of anyone merely "preaching" and then having that summarized as "and so Joe preached a sermon - thus prophesying since prophecy is nothing more than preaching".

Notice that in 1Cor 14 those with the gift of tongues must withold that ministry in the case of a lack of interpretation and must be careful to do it single-file so to speak.

But in the case of Prophecy -- even if one is standing and giving a revelation that must BE SEATED if anyone sitting is given a revelation.

That only works if it is a supernatural event totally owned by God.

Not as in preaching - but as in Stephen suddenly seeing Christ standing at the right hand of the Father or John on Patmos being in the spirit on the Lord's Day and being taken into vision.

As God said "I WILL make myself knows to prophets in a vision or dream".

My thinking is that this statement from God is "gold" when it comes to understanding that unique gift.

In 1Cor 12 prophecy is a very different gift from pastoring or teaching.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: In 1Cor 12 prophecy is a very different gift from pastoring or teaching.

HP: God may be using you to save my skinny neck from the lassos(sp) of a bunch of Cowboys:laugh: I am starting to feel better already!:laugh:

You don't suppose I might be guilty of 'prophet shopping' do you? :laugh:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Let me guess. Hope of Glory, JJump , and even possibly Amy are going to tell me that preaching and prophesying are one in the same.:laugh: :laugh:

 

[DQuixote]

I've heard far too many Christians speak of prophecy as supernatural, folks in a sort-of trance-like state uttering what's going to happen next Tuesday, next year, describing what is going to happen in personal relationships ~~ some receive a "word of knowledge" and utter words in an unknown tongue. I have observed many. I have seen none come true.

To prophesy means to speak or to write. Holy men of old spake; scriptures are God-breathed. It is inspired speech. My speech or song before a congregation is inspired. I'm a messenger.

“Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”

The writers of old wrote, even through or in the book of John. Here's a neat translation:

"... if you read the books of the Prophets and God's Law (the Law of Moses) closely, you will see them culminate in John, teaming up with him in preparing the way for the Messiah of the Kingdom. Looked at in this way, John is the 'Elijah' you've all been expecting to arrive and introduce the Messiah."

Start reading from Matthew 11:1. Who is Jesus talking to? His Jewish followers. He's addressing the Nation of Israel, as well: the Kingdom is at hand! That's what He's offering. He's their King and He's ready to set up the Kingdom. He is sending his messengers forth to preach, to tell, to evangelize, to witness. He is equipping them to do so.

Supernatural predictions of the future are not for today. God could choose to utter a future prediction through someone today, but it would more than likely be a rare occurrence, indeed. Much more likely is inspired speech. I heard a pastor say that within ten years there will be no Christian church buildings. They will all be closed. Supernatural prediction? No. Simply reading the deplorable signs of the times, and inspired to say something about them.

Our avenue of meeting today and tomorrow head on is prayer, not supernatural predicting.

 

[Amy.G]

Let me guess. Hope of Glory, JJump , and even possibly Amy are going to tell me that preaching and prophesying are one in the same.:laugh: :laugh:

Hey, what did I do? I thought you were my friend HP. :tear:
:laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

To prophesy means to speak or to write.

NO text of scripture says that anyone who speaks is a prophet.

NO text of scripture says that anyone who writes is a prophet.

To find the definition of a prophet you have to go to the Bible and read what it says about it.

Hence my quote of God's statement on this subject in the book of Numbers -- instead of just "making stuff up".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

From post 2

In the NT we have several examples of prophets - Agabus for example predicts the sufferings of Paul and Simon and Anna in the temple are given prophetic vision into the mission of Christ.

Numbers 12
6 He said, ""Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream.

In 1Cor 14 we see that we should desire earnestly spiritual gifts but "especially that YOU may prophesy". And then we are told that this unique gift is under God's complete control so that IF one standing is relating a revelation and one sitting is suddenly given one -- the one standing must STOP and yield to the one who has just been given a revelation.

That would be "total chaos" in the watered down definition for prophecy so commonly used today.