Prophets and the Wearing of Hats

[Lacy Evans]

I hope I don't throw a wrench into the gears but how do you get "hat" out of these veres? It is plain (to me) the the covering (or lack of covering) in question has to do with hair length.

1Co 11:13-15
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

 

[Eliyahu]

I hope I don't throw a wrench into the gears but how do you get "hat" out of these veres? It is plain (to me) the the covering (or lack of covering) in question has to do with hair length.

1Co 11:13-15
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

I think this is rightly brought to our attention.

I explained this point in other thread regarding the Head-Covering.
These verses do not contradict with what Paul explained in the previous verses.
Verse 6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

If the long hair can replace the covering, then it contradicts verse 6.

Now we have to return to the original verses:

v 14 : Long hair is a shame to men, and therefore the men's hair shouldn't be long like hippies.

v 15 her hair is given for ( αντι-anti) covering.

The Greek word Anti has four kinds of meanings:
1. Opposition, 2 Replacement, 3 for the sake of, 4 in addition to, on top of.

4th usage is found in John 1:16.
Of His fulness have we all received, and grace for grace ( Grace upon Grace).

In other words, the Long hair is a glory to the women in the normal daily life, and therefore it is given to the women in addition to the head-covering for the worship service ( prophesying and praying). Head covering is to be worn on top of the long hair which is the glory to the women in the normal life.

Otherwise, you will find the contradiction with v 6.

Throughout the history, the Christian churches followed this instructions until the WWI.

 

[BobRyan]

In the NT we have several examples of prophets - Agabus for example predicts the sufferings of Paul and Simon and Anna in the temple are given prophetic vision into the mission of Christ.

Numbers 12
6 He said, ""Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream.

In 1Cor 14 we see that we should desire earnestly spiritual gifts but "especially that YOU may prophesy". And then we are told that this unique gift is under God's complete control so that IF one standing is relating a revelation and one sitting is suddenly given one -- the one standing must STOP and yield to the one who has just been given a revelation.

That would be "total chaos" in the watered down definition for prophecy so commonly used today.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Verse 6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

If the long hair can replace the covering, then it contradicts verse 6.

I still don't see a contradiction. I see it as sarcasm (or perhaps hyperbole). If she is gonna have her hair bobbed off like a man, then let her go ahead and shave it all off. (I would they were even cut off which trouble you.:tear: ) My problem is that there is no mention of a hat at all. But hair is specifically and contextually mentioned as the covering in question.

 

[Eliyahu]

I still don't see a contradiction. I see it as sarcasm (or perhaps hyperbole). If she is gonna have her hair bobbed off like a man, then let her go ahead and shave it all off. (I would they were even cut off which trouble you.:tear: ) My problem is that there is no mention of a hat at all. But hair is specifically and contextually mentioned as the covering in question.

For your better understanding, I think I have to repeat the same explanation which I made on the other thread.

Let's read 1 Cor 11:1-16

1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head(=Jesus Christ). 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.( Katakaluptesthow) 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. 13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. 16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

From the above, when the believers pray or prophesy in the church,

1) Man should not have any covering ( including any hat or vail, or turban, or Jewish Kifa, or Catholic Berretta or biretta)= Wearing those are wrong!

2) Men's wearing any head-covering dishonors the head which is Jesus Christ as the Head of Man is Jesus Christ.

3) If a woman is not covered( Katakaluptetai), she must be shorn ( v 6) = Katakaluptai means covering with some material, not the long hair!
Shaving or shearing is a Sarcasm there ( v6) !

4) Woman should wear the Head-covering because of the Angels ( This may be a lesson to the angels teaching them the obedience) - v 10

5) Long hair is a glory to the woman, because it is given for the Peribolaiou ( Round Covering by itself)
If the bobbed off hair was used for the women with coverings, it is not recommended here.

6) Covering in verse 15 is Peribolaiou and Covering in verse 6 is Katakaluptai, both words are far different!

If the Long Hair could replace the covering ( Kata-kaluptai=covering-down), in verse 6, the woman doesn't have to be shorn ! How could Paul confidently say the sarcasm that Woman must be shaven or shorn without exception if they don't wear the coverings?

Can we imagine that the Early church had the two groups of women, one group with long hair without covering, the other with short hair with the coverings and/or hats ?

But Paul finally says this:

16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.


I am quite sure that nobody can claim the replacement of the covering with the long hair.


The explanation by Paul is not depending on the length of the hair, because he explains everything on the Head-Covering, based on:

1. Headship: Head of Woman is Man, Head of Man is Christ, Head of Christ is God.

2. Woman must wear the covering due to the Angels

3. Woman was created out of Man

4. Long Hair is the shame to man = this doesn't mean that man can wear the Head-Covering as long as he has short hairs.

5. Long Hair is the glory to the woman and given for the covering-around ( during the daily life).

None of these are Culture!

This was not a question at all until after World War I as all the women believers wore the head-covering, but around the time of WWII, the women had to work at the industries and they didn't wear the coverings and then even the churches had the women taken off the coverings.
But the Truth on this head-covering doesn't depend on the Culture, but, as Paul explained, it relates to the Creation and Head-ship.

 

[Lacy Evans]

You'll have to prove the doctrine in English for me to buy it.

I am very suspicious of a doctrine that relies either on going to the Greek, then retranslating (both greek words can simply be translated 'covering' and are sometimes synonymous), or appealing to history.

Lacy

 

[Eliyahu]

You'll have to prove the doctrine in English for me to buy it.

I am very suspicious of a doctrine that relies either on going to the Greek, then retranslating (both greek words can simply be translated 'covering' and are sometimes synonymous), or appealing to history.

Lacy

Apparently the original words for Covering in v6 is different from the Covering mentioned in v 15. Verse 15 doesn't replace v6, otherwise it means that Paul mentioned v6 in vain, but he should have started with "either Covering or Long Hair"
English is the translation from Greek Text, which reflects the translators belief and understanding.

If your logic were correct, Paul must have stated this way instead of Sarcasm,

" For if the woman be not covered, let her have long hair." ( v 6) why did Paul say woman should be shorn or shaven?

If you can try to imagine what the Early Church was look like, you can understand that the believers followed the teachings by Paul and that women wore the coverings. Whether it was a cluture is explained above as well. If you try to understand the passage in obedience to God, the Holy Spirit will answer you with proper interpretation.

If you cannot understand the above explanation, I cannot help you any more.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Can we imagine that the Early church had the two groups of women, one group with long hair without covering, the other with short hair with the coverings and/or hats ?

If your logic were correct, Paul must have stated this way instead of Sarcasm,

" For if the woman be not covered, let her have long hair." ( v 6) why did Paul say woman should be shorn or shaven?

You seem to be assuming the thing you are trying to prove. (ie. you assume that "covered" = wearing a hat)

There would be no "group with long hair but uncovered." Their hair is their covering.

To say if she be not covered (long hair) then let her have long hair, would be redundant.

IMO, Paul said "let her be shaven" as hyperbole. A shaved head is a sign of shame. So if she wants to wear her hair like a man, and refuses to grow it out , then let her go all the way with her rebellion it and shave it bald. Most uncovered women (short haired) are not really interested in having a bald head. (unless they run out of prozac and vodka like Brittany Spears)

It is a case of taking an argument to an extreme to make a point.

In Christ, Lacy

 

[Eliyahu]

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You seem to be assuming the thing you are trying to prove. (ie. you assume that "covered" = wearing a hat)

I didn't say Covering = Wearing a hat. Kata-kaluptetai in verse 6 means " Cover-down or down-cover" and Peribolaiou in verse 15 means " wear-around" They are different words. Paul didn't make v 15 supersede v 6.

More women believers wear a clothe like a veil or a towel ( than a hat). RCC has made many errors but they have a long history and witness the visible customs correctly in this case.
If Paul had said " let her have long hairs" in v 6, it would have not been redundant. Your claim is assuming that Paul is nervous and unkind in teachings and appeals to the easy hyperbole.
I cannot help you any more. But you will see who is correct eventually.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Lacy: "There is logically no difference between a necessary result of faith for which we are responsible and a condition of eternal salvation."​

HP: Would you mind expounding on this a bit? Thanks.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Lacy: "There is logically no difference between a necessary result of faith for which we are responsible and a condition of eternal salvation."​

HP: Would you mind expounding on this a bit? Thanks.

It is my signature so perhaps a new thread would be appropriate since it has nothing to do with the OP. I'd love to discuss it on a new thread.

Lacy

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Lacy: I'd love to discuss it on a new thread.

HP: Great, start one. I'd like to hear what you have to say about it.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Lacy: I'd love to discuss it on a new thread.

HP: Great, start one. I'd like to hear what you have to say about it.

Right now we're moving so give me a few days and I'll start it.

Lacy

 

[hillclimber1]

There are no "prophets" today. No need for them since the completed word. Anyone that calls themselves that today are either deceived or liars.

 

[Eliyahu]

There are no "prophets" today. No need for them since the completed word. Anyone that calls themselves that today are either deceived or liars.

Prophet as a profession may have ceased, but prophesying is encouraged to every believers by Bible.


Ro 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
1Co 11:5 - Show Context
But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her

1Co 13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 14:1
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:3 - Show Context
But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:4 - Show Context
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1Co 14:5 - Show Context
I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
1Co 14:24
But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
1Co 14:31
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Re 10:11
And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
Re 11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
( all Bible quotes from www.crosswalk.com)


The 2 witnesses in Rev 11:3 may be the core portion of True Believers all around the world, not the specific 2 prophets.


REv 10:11 "Prophesy AGain" is quite interesting expression as I believe all OT was prophesying the first coming of Jesus Christ, then NT materialized the OT prophecy and expounded the meanings of them compared with what happened to Jesus, then NT finally prophesied the second coming of Jesus. All the sermons about OT is expounding the first coming of Jesus or the Pre-Incarnate Jesus, then the sermon on NT explains how the OT prophecy came true in NT, and how we should be prepared for the second coming, and what will happen after our death, eventually what will happen at the second coming of Messiah in new millennium. So, the whole Bible is the Prophesying about Jesus Christ.

 

[Lacy Evans]

There are no "prophets" today. No need for them since the completed word. Anyone that calls themselves that today are either deceived or liars.

I'd like to see scripture to back that up.

Lacy

 

[BobRyan]

1 Corinthians 14
1 Pursue love, yet [b]desire earnestly[/b] spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.[/b]
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.[/b]

24 But [b]if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue[/b], has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
27 [b]If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn[/b], and one must interpret;
28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.

29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.
30 But [b]if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent.
31 For you can all prophesy one by one[/b], so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
32 and the [b]spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

37 [b]If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment.[/b]
38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy[/b], and do not forbid to speak in tongues.
40 But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner