TaliOrlando
New Member
Are all Pentecostal Churches Bad??
I know that some speak in tongues under emotions??
What are your toughts ??
I know that some speak in tongues under emotions??
What are your toughts ??
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Pros and Cons about a Pentecostal Church??
- Thread starter TaliOrlando
- Start date
There are points of disagreement I have w/virtually all...but IMO the question is too broad. There are some pentecostal churches that are in or near heretical territory, and others in which my differences with them are not nearly so extreme.
Primary disagreements I have w/most pentecostal churches:
-tongues stuff
-over-reliance on the emotional (it IS possible IMO to go so far the other way; e.g., "this is church. no being happy allowed." That was sarcasm, but most of you probably know what I'm saying)
-"Baptism of Holy Ghost" is a mis-interpretation on their part.
-many pentecostal churches put "all their eggs in one basket" and emphasize the worship and under-emphasize stuff like discipleship.
-(some, though not nearly all pentecostals) have bought into the "Word of Faith" garbage. That stuff is a cancer.
these are more "preference" issues:
-don't like the hollering, theatrical types of preaching.
-many Pentecostal services look "thrown together" to me. I'm kind of a perfectionist when it comes to planning worship services. I'm not a good participant in stuff that looks like it was thrown together.
-pentecostal churches that throw guilt on you if you aren't expressive in your worship REALLY bother me. Not everyone is outward in their expressions. Heck, I don't even holler at football games, so that analogy doesn't fly with me.
-OK this is really trite: have you ever noticed that some of the ugliest churches, decor-wise, are often US pentecostal churches? Watching 5 minutes on TBN seems to prove that point.
Primary disagreements I have w/most pentecostal churches:
-tongues stuff
-over-reliance on the emotional (it IS possible IMO to go so far the other way; e.g., "this is church. no being happy allowed." That was sarcasm, but most of you probably know what I'm saying)
-"Baptism of Holy Ghost" is a mis-interpretation on their part.
-many pentecostal churches put "all their eggs in one basket" and emphasize the worship and under-emphasize stuff like discipleship.
-(some, though not nearly all pentecostals) have bought into the "Word of Faith" garbage. That stuff is a cancer.
these are more "preference" issues:
-don't like the hollering, theatrical types of preaching.
-many Pentecostal services look "thrown together" to me. I'm kind of a perfectionist when it comes to planning worship services. I'm not a good participant in stuff that looks like it was thrown together.
-pentecostal churches that throw guilt on you if you aren't expressive in your worship REALLY bother me. Not everyone is outward in their expressions. Heck, I don't even holler at football games, so that analogy doesn't fly with me.
-OK this is really trite: have you ever noticed that some of the ugliest churches, decor-wise, are often US pentecostal churches? Watching 5 minutes on TBN seems to prove that point.
About Pentecostal churches...
I moved around a lot as a kid in the US and went to quite a lot of them. Some Pentecostal churches aren't that emotional. They may have tongues and prophecy, but no screaming or shouting. I notice the AOG has kind of country style churches and the quieter city church without the yelling. There are plenty of loud yelling Baptist preachers, especially the kind who say 'Anduh' instead of 'And' when they are preaching. I think the 'Andah' thing is more of a loud Baptist preacher thing than a loud Pentecostal thing.
In the Southeast, you get a lot of those preachers who think it's holy for people to shout and yell, dance and get all excited in worship. The Psalms do talk about some of these things, though. But I think some people have a wrong conception and confuse emotion with the work of the Spirit.
As far as your concerns about planning everything in the service, I think that can be a strength of Pentecostals. Did the early church plan everything? Were they instructed to?
I Corinthians 14:26 tells us that when they came together, everyone had a psalm, teaching, revelation, tongue, or interpretation. That was good. All things just needed to be done unto edifying.
Clearly not all of this was planned, since Paul later says that if a prophet is speaking and one sitting by recieves a revelation, the speaking prophet is to be quiet and let the other man speak. So the revelation that comes while one is sitting by was not planned. And I can hardly imagine the amount of work it would have taken for every single person to carefully plan out a liturgy of how every sing one of them would speak in a meeting. It seems more likely that they had a general format for meetings that allowed for open participation within certain guidelines (i.e. those in I Corinthians 14) and did not plan everything out.
Actually, the Azusa Street Revival that the Pentecostal movement came out of had meetings similar to what I describe, with people in the meeting speaking as they felt led of the Spirit. But the movement quickly resorted by to the traditions of men, having one preacher stand up and give a sermon and not allowing the other saints to use their gifts in the meeting, the same thing you see in most churches in the US.
I moved around a lot as a kid in the US and went to quite a lot of them. Some Pentecostal churches aren't that emotional. They may have tongues and prophecy, but no screaming or shouting. I notice the AOG has kind of country style churches and the quieter city church without the yelling. There are plenty of loud yelling Baptist preachers, especially the kind who say 'Anduh' instead of 'And' when they are preaching. I think the 'Andah' thing is more of a loud Baptist preacher thing than a loud Pentecostal thing.
In the Southeast, you get a lot of those preachers who think it's holy for people to shout and yell, dance and get all excited in worship. The Psalms do talk about some of these things, though. But I think some people have a wrong conception and confuse emotion with the work of the Spirit.
As far as your concerns about planning everything in the service, I think that can be a strength of Pentecostals. Did the early church plan everything? Were they instructed to?
I Corinthians 14:26 tells us that when they came together, everyone had a psalm, teaching, revelation, tongue, or interpretation. That was good. All things just needed to be done unto edifying.
Clearly not all of this was planned, since Paul later says that if a prophet is speaking and one sitting by recieves a revelation, the speaking prophet is to be quiet and let the other man speak. So the revelation that comes while one is sitting by was not planned. And I can hardly imagine the amount of work it would have taken for every single person to carefully plan out a liturgy of how every sing one of them would speak in a meeting. It seems more likely that they had a general format for meetings that allowed for open participation within certain guidelines (i.e. those in I Corinthians 14) and did not plan everything out.
Actually, the Azusa Street Revival that the Pentecostal movement came out of had meetings similar to what I describe, with people in the meeting speaking as they felt led of the Spirit. But the movement quickly resorted by to the traditions of men, having one preacher stand up and give a sermon and not allowing the other saints to use their gifts in the meeting, the same thing you see in most churches in the US.
I have a friend that goes to an AoG church, and I have been invited there a time or two, so I asked a similar question here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=32275
I didn't know if you had seen that thread and the responses, it might help you answer your question.
Jamie
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=32275
I didn't know if you had seen that thread and the responses, it might help you answer your question.
Jamie
Link said:About Pentecostal churches...
There are plenty of loud yelling Baptist preachers, especially the kind who say 'Anduh' instead of 'And' when they are preaching. I think the 'Andah' thing is more of a loud Baptist preacher thing than a loud Pentecostal thing.
In the Southeast, you get a lot of those preachers who think it's holy for people to shout and yell, dance and get all excited in worship. The Psalms do talk about some of these things, though. But I think some people have a wrong conception and confuse emotion with the work of the Spirit..
You described our Church to a T. I do a lot of hollaring when I close a sermon and usually end with a few people shouting and most of the Church on their feet yelling back at me. The piano and musicians with get with me and we close in a high spiritual note. That's the way I like it and can only take so much of a solomn sad service with a preacher with no fire in him. You at least have to say it like you believe it or how do you expect anyone else to believe it.
By the way, I'm Baptist...
Pentecostal don't believe in eternal security and most preach works for salvation.
Darron Steele
New Member
Cons: Pentecostal preachers often claim more authority for themselves in the lives of other believers than they are entitled to.
Teach conditional security.
I believe the emotionalism also often takes away from the occasion of worship.
Pros: First, from that, they come to church with the expectation that they should and will enjoy worship. They strongly believe that if they are not happy when entering the church, they should become that way.
Second, an emphasis on holy living is very strong. Calls to live in "holiness" are frequent in these churches.
Third, one thing I believe is worth noticing is Acts 4:24b, describing congregational prayer "they lift vp their voices to God with one accord" -- Geneva Bible edition 1602.
In this congregational prayer, everyone prayed orally. In the New Testament, there is no "leading in prayer" with one person praying and everyone else agreeing. In Pentecostal circles, everyone prays for the concerns listed out loud and individually, and prays their own prayer until the leader says "Amen." This is much closer to the Acts 4:24 pattern than anything I have seen outside Pentecostal/Charismatic circles.
Teach conditional security.
I believe the emotionalism also often takes away from the occasion of worship.
Pros: First, from that, they come to church with the expectation that they should and will enjoy worship. They strongly believe that if they are not happy when entering the church, they should become that way.
Second, an emphasis on holy living is very strong. Calls to live in "holiness" are frequent in these churches.
Third, one thing I believe is worth noticing is Acts 4:24b, describing congregational prayer "they lift vp their voices to God with one accord" -- Geneva Bible edition 1602.
In this congregational prayer, everyone prayed orally. In the New Testament, there is no "leading in prayer" with one person praying and everyone else agreeing. In Pentecostal circles, everyone prays for the concerns listed out loud and individually, and prays their own prayer until the leader says "Amen." This is much closer to the Acts 4:24 pattern than anything I have seen outside Pentecostal/Charismatic circles.
Last edited by a moderator:
Brian30755
New Member
rbell said:There are points of disagreement I have w/virtually all...but IMO the question is too broad.
I agree with rbell; the question is too broad.
There are some pentecostal churches that are in or near heretical territory, and others in which my differences with them are not nearly so extreme.
I agree again. However, you could substitue "pentecostal" with "baptist" and still have a very true statement.
Primary disagreements I have w/most pentecostal churches:
-tongues stuff
-over-reliance on the emotional (it IS possible IMO to go so far the other way; e.g., "this is church. no being happy allowed." That was sarcasm, but most of you probably know what I'm saying)
-"Baptism of Holy Ghost" is a mis-interpretation on their part.
-many pentecostal churches put "all their eggs in one basket" and emphasize the worship and under-emphasize stuff like discipleship.
-(some, though not nearly all pentecostals) have bought into the "Word of Faith" garbage. That stuff is a cancer.
Tongues stuff: I don't like churches that put a big emphasis on it, but I'm still not convinced that it's not a valid gift for today.
Over-reliance on the emotional: I've seen some people in pentecostal churches do some really stupid things, all for show. I also saw a little fat deacon in a country Baptist church try to do backflips down the aisle. (He was able to complete 1/2 of one.) But when people are reminded of the victory they have in Jesus, and they get noticeably happy, I certainly have no problem with that.
I also know what you mean about "this is church, no being happy allowed". Been there, done that. Don't like it.
Baptism of the Holy Ghost: I think I agree with you here. I believe that asking God to fill you with the Holy Spirit is similar to what some people refer to as the "Baptism". I do not, however, believe that speaking in tongues is the "evidence" of being filled with or baptized in the Spirit.
Over-emphasizing worship and under-emphasizing discipleship: This may be true for a lot of pentecostal churches; I don't know. I know it's not true for the one I now attend. Yeah, we have some awesome times of worship, but when the time comes for the Word, we get the Word. They also have excellent Sunday School and "new Christian" classes.
Word of Faith: I don't believe in the "name it and claim it" or "blab it and grab it" philosophy, but I do believe we should boldly confess the promises that God has given us in His Word. To put it simply, I believe if you are praying about something that is not addressed in the Bible, you should pray "if it be Your will". If you are praying about something that IS promised to us as believers, I believe you should NOT pray "if it be Your will", but should simply thank Him for it (yeah, even if you haven't seen it yet). I think a lot of pentecostal churches get wrongly accused of being part of the Word-Faith (your words have magic powers) movement, when all they are really teaching is to believe and stand on the promises that God has given us in His Word.
these are more "preference" issues:
-don't like the hollering, theatrical types of preaching.
It doesn't bother me if a preacher gets excited about what he's preaching. I know Charles Stanley is a great preacher, but to be honest, I can't listen to him for more than about 10 minutes before my mind is wandering.....simply because of his boring style of delivery.
-many Pentecostal services look "thrown together" to me. I'm kind of a perfectionist when it comes to planning worship services. I'm not a good participant in stuff that looks like it was thrown together.
I've seen both. The church I attended before I moved was like that.....more or less "thrown together" services. The one I attend now is really organized and really has it together, and I like that about it.
-pentecostal churches that throw guilt on you if you aren't expressive in your worship REALLY bother me. Not everyone is outward in their expressions. Heck, I don't even holler at football games, so that analogy doesn't fly with me.
I'm totally with you on this one. I've been in some that try to tell you when to lift your hands and worship. I don't like that. (I do lift my hands in worship, but I don't like being told when to do it.) I also don't like when a preacher says "touch 3 people and tell 'em......whatever."
-OK this is really trite: have you ever noticed that some of the ugliest churches, decor-wise, are often US pentecostal churches? Watching 5 minutes on TBN seems to prove that point.
I've only been in a handful of pentecostal churches in my life.....but I can honestly say that the ones I've been in looked a lot better than many Baptist churches I've been inside.
Anyway, back to the original question, "Are all Pentecostal churches bad?", I don't see much difference in asking "Are all Baptist churches bad", or "are all Methodist churches bad".
Brian30755
New Member
Darron Steele said:Third, one thing I believe is worth noticing is Acts 4:24b, describing congregational prayer "they lift vp their voices to God with one accord" -- Geneva Bible edition 1602.
In this congregational prayer, everyone prayed orally. In the New Testament, there is no "leading in prayer" with one person praying and everyone else agreeing. In Pentecostal circles, everyone prays for the concerns listed out loud and individually, and prays their own prayer until the leader says "Amen." This is much closer to the Acts 4:24 pattern than anything I have seen outside Pentecostal/Charismatic circles.
This is one thing I really like about the Pentecostal churches I've been in.
I was raised in a Southern Baptist church. I truly believe that if I had never gone to a Pentecostal church, my prayer life today would probably consist of bowing my head and listening to some 90-year-old Deacon pray the same prayer he's prayed every Sunday for the last 50 years. I don't know where the idea of one person "leading in prayer" and everyone else "listening" (and quite often being critical of, or making fun of, the one doing the praying) came from.
Darron Steele
New Member
Brian30755 said:...I don't believe in the "name it and claim it" or "blab it and grab it" philosophy, ...
This is one thing about Pentecostal philosophy that does really bother me. I tend to forget it until I see it. Basically, often mortals among them seem to think that they are in a position to tell God what to do!
Another thing is the assumption of private revelation. Too many make very bad decisions because they think God has specifically spoken to them and they do not carefully check it against the written word and reject it when at variance -- as Pentecostal preachers warn their people to do.
Of course, I do not believe that this offsets the good things they offer the church both in and outside Pentecostal congregations. Pentecostals are Christians serving the same Lord we do, and that should be enough for us to consider them a `pro.'
Inquiring Mind
New Member
I was told as a child that speaking in tongues was THE sign of TOTAL SANCTIFICATION.
In addition to the problems others have mentioned, emotionalism, overemphasis on spiritual gifts, etc my biggest problem is they like many American evangelicals spend to much time preaching on the "Biblical principles for __________" than preaching on the free gift that God offers His people in Christ.
I guess I am on the opposite side of this. While I strongly agree with you that teaching about the free gift God offers us, I believe that a good minister should also teach/preach about how the Bible teachs us in the way of the principles of today's life.Chemnitz said:In addition to the problems others have mentioned, emotionalism, overemphasis on spiritual gifts, etc my biggest problem is they like many American evangelicals spend to much time preaching on the "Biblical principles for __________" than preaching on the free gift that God offers His people in Christ.
My pastor does a great job of combining the two. He preaches about the salvation of God, but he always teaches us how to better understand how the Bible shows us how to live our day to day "mudane" life.
So, I very much enjoy the "Bibical principles for _______ lessons. It helps me better understand and live my life in a Christ-like way.
Jamie
Jack Matthews
New Member
I've never been in a "Pentecostal" church, as opposed to a "Charismatic" church. I've been in a couple of those. Or perhaps there isn't a real difference? When I think of the term "Pentecostal," the image of women wearing long dresses, no jewelry or makeup, and very plainly dressed men comes to mind. Also, the beehive hairdos that are very distinctively different than anything most other women would wear also come to mind. Charismatics, by comparison, seem to be a lot less hung up on outward appearances.
I'm not convinced the gift of tongues has ceased, considering the fact that there are people who do it in accordance with the scripture, and there is no scriptural support for its having ceased. The only arguments I've seen put forth here against it are human reasoning, not Biblically supported.
I have encountered the Word of Faith theology in Charismatic churches. I've also heard that same theology preached by an independent, fundamentalist Baptist preacher here locally, so that might not necessarily be a Pentecostal distinctive.
I'm not convinced the gift of tongues has ceased, considering the fact that there are people who do it in accordance with the scripture, and there is no scriptural support for its having ceased. The only arguments I've seen put forth here against it are human reasoning, not Biblically supported.
I have encountered the Word of Faith theology in Charismatic churches. I've also heard that same theology preached by an independent, fundamentalist Baptist preacher here locally, so that might not necessarily be a Pentecostal distinctive.
Oh, that's nothing; there was one time when I went to one of the assistant pastors for something, and he was praying over me, and he lifted up my hands. I did not like that at all. (I also am not expressive, and it makes it seem like that somehow does something for God, or something).I've been in some that try to tell you when to lift your hands and worship. I don't like that. (I do lift my hands in worship, but I don't like being told when to do it.)
I go to an IAOG Tabernacle, and otherwise, it is fine, but the worship is a bit too emotional, however the preaching is more straight and intelligent, and not hollering and all that stuff.
I did have another pastor warn that if you don;t pray or read the Bible enough, ou have "no relationship with God" and are "lukewarm" and he will spit you out of His mouth. My wife interpreted that as "God will not use you", rather than losing salvation, but I still say that was way out of line.
It's "turn to the people next ou you and greet them". Nice, but I find it a bit shallow in a large church with a lot of people you don't know. I would rather have a smaller church where you know everybody. That was where I was happiest.I also don't like when a preacher says "touch 3 people and tell 'em......whatever."
Jack writes:
" When I think of the term "Pentecostal," the image of women wearing long dresses, no jewelry or makeup, and very plainly dressed men comes to mind. Also, the beehive hairdos that are very distinctively different than anything most other women would wear also come to mind."
The above was true of the Assemblies of God (Pentecostal) churches 40 years ago except for the plainly dressed men. Now the AOG churches would make most Baptist churches look conservative. By and large, the AOG churches have totally rejected what they were in terms of appearances.
" When I think of the term "Pentecostal," the image of women wearing long dresses, no jewelry or makeup, and very plainly dressed men comes to mind. Also, the beehive hairdos that are very distinctively different than anything most other women would wear also come to mind."
The above was true of the Assemblies of God (Pentecostal) churches 40 years ago except for the plainly dressed men. Now the AOG churches would make most Baptist churches look conservative. By and large, the AOG churches have totally rejected what they were in terms of appearances.