Protestants still follow the pope

[DHK]

there is the Lord of the Sabbath Day who not so long ago lived the Seventh Day as the Sabbath Day of the LORD your God, and even more, rose from the dead thus giving the Seventh Day all the Promises and Prophesies of God come true to it and upon it.
You still don't know which day and still insist it's of no consequence, I know. You see, there is the final clinche to convince one of the "Lord's Day" - it works like the wind; one doesn't know whence, but it convinces with Almighty Power.

GE: It seems as if you are unable to differentiate between the 7th day (Saturday, the Sabbath) and the first day of the week (Sunday), the day Jesus rose again. These facts are clearly set forth in Scripture.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Grahame:
"He rose again that we may be justified before God. .... Has our Lord died in vain? He created one day in the week for our rest and regeneration and we insist on making it a day of labour."

GE:

"He rose again that we may be justified before God....." Ever given it a thought, why, "In the Sabbath's fulness of daylight it being the First Day before . . ."? Because "THUS", in Christ and through Him, in resurrection from the dead and through resurrection from the dead, "God finished all, HIS, WORKS, upon the Seventh Day". Thus He 'created' or "made", "the Sabbath, in Jesus' own words.
Now come you and make it the first or any other of the days of the week, and feel so good.

You show me where you get "He created one day in the week for our rest and regeneration" from in the Bible, and I'll lend you a more sympathetic ear. Because the Bible is it that says God made the Sabbth for His own rest and for His own regeneration. Sundayists never think of it; it is they who "insist on making it a day of labour" -- their, own labour, while God is it who insists on making it THE day of HIS "own rest". That is Bible, not human wining by reason of his own neglect of duty..

 

[BobRyan]

No I don't reject the Sabbath. I believe that Christ is our Sabbath.

Text please.

The Sabbath is the shadow, the type of things to come, of the great antitype who is Christ.

In Genesis 2 the Seventh day "is made a holy day" long before sin and salvation are even in the picture. In Isaiah 66 we are told of the future things to come "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship".

The Sabbath was BEFORE sin and lasts long AFTER all sin and suffering have ended according to Isaiah 66 speaking of the new Earth.

The only "Shadow Sabbaths" that we have are in Lev 23 referencing the ANNUAL Sabbaths based on animal sacrifices - those sacrifices ARE a shadow - a type of Christ and they ended as we are told in Col 2 because the Sacrifices that constituted them ended as we are told in Heb 10.

Grahame said
As Christian believers we are in that Sabbath

Text please.

Grahame said -
We meet on the first day of the week. The day our Lord rose from the dead in remembrance of what he accomplished on that day, the day of his resurrection.

Paul reminds us in !cor 11 "As oft as you do this you do show the Lord's DEATH until He comes" and Christ said "Do this in rememberance of ME" -- both speaking of the Lord's Supper.

But NO text says "gather on week-day-one IN REMEMBRANCE of Christ's resurrection" and NO text says "week day one is to be called the LORD's day in remembrance of Christ's resurrection".

I agree that many "make that up" but we do not find it in scripture. And I prefer all my doctrines "sola scriptura".

Grahame said
By the way Abraham was saved through faith and not by the keeping of any law.

Well now see - we DO agree on something!

Abraham was SAVED by the ONE Gospel "by grace saved through faith not of works lest anyone should boast" JUST as we are...

Heb 4:1 for "the Gospel was preached to US JUST as it was to THEM as well".

For the New Testament clearly states that "The Law was given by Moses". Not Abraham. So those verses you quoted when you stated could not have meant those laws that were given in Exodus. For the simple fact that they had not yet been given to Israel at that time.

That is conjecture not scripture. GOD said that Abraham DID keep His LAWS and COMMANDMENTS and STATUES JUST as He ALSO commanded Israel to keep His "LAWS and COMMANDMENTS and STATUTES" in Deuteronomy.

I think I am going to stick with GOD on that one.

Notice that in Gen 6 and 7 we are told that the CLEAN animals went into the ark by SEVENS and the UNCLEAN by TWOS -- but we do not find the MEANING of that term until we get to Lev 11.

Moses is the author of BOTH Genesis and LEV so HIS READERS had access to BOTH. He did not need to repeat the instruction in LEV 11 IN Genesis for the point to be made.

Grahame
Paul the apostle actually used Abraham as an example of salvation "before" the law was given by Moses. He did this for the specific reason of proving that salvation is by the grace of God through faith and not by the law. That law was given by to the people of Israel.

Paul says of that law "Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith?? God FORBID! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

And HE states in 1Cor 7 "What matters is the KEEPING of the COMMANDMENTS of GOD".

In Romans 4 Paul says "where there is no law NEITHER is there SIN" -- if Abraham was free from all condemnation then he needed NO Savior and NO justification. The point is that even CAIN was under the rule of LAW and so SIN was defined. God says to CAIN "SIN is crouching at your door" yet we do not find the definition of MURDER as sin until AFTER Genesis 4 where God warns Cain about his sin.

Why is it that mankind always wants to put themselves back under the law? As if they are trying to prove that they are worthy in some way, even if it is by keeping the Sabbath day. What are you going to do to those who work on the Sabbath? Stone them as they did under the law?

mankind seeks REBELLION against the Law of God. Ask any atheist, any pagan, any worldling - it is not OBEDIENCE to Christ's Word that mankind seeks - but rebellion. In Romans 8 we find that the carnal heart is at WAR with the Law of God - it does not submit in obedience to it "neither indeed CAN it"

How does this topic get so spun around in those other churches??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Well, we keep both Saturday and Sunday. Where some keep Wednesday night we Keep Saturday, so I guess I am covered. No wonder Bob and I are friends.

Your a good guy Brother Bob to be sure -- but I would be friends with you and yours even if you did not keep Sabbath brother.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

God said of Abraham "HE KEPT My COMMANDMENTS and STATUTES and LAWS" Gen 26:5 just as God commands Israel to do in Deut 27:10

Grahame said -
could not have meant those laws that were given in Exodus. For the simple fact that they had not yet been given to Israel at that time.

I don't think Abraham had the Lev 23 annual feast days nor do I think he had the CIVIL laws for the nation of Israel.

But I DO think He had the SAME Seventh-day of Creation WEEK that was MADE HOLY in Gen 2:3 and I think He had the Ten Commandment law of God - but not on tablets of stone or written in a book.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

GE: It seems as if you are unable to differentiate between the 7th day (Saturday, the Sabbath) and the first day of the week (Sunday), the day Jesus rose again. These facts are clearly set forth in Scripture.

GE:
This getting monotonous and very boring, you just saying over and over again your old misquotes. I showed you the actual Scripture; answer me on that if you can. Again: answer what stands there plainly in the AV, in Knoch's, in Young's, in the ASV (if I think of the right one), in Marshall's, in Tyndale's, in AT Robertson, and, in the GREEK. Then try repeat your echoeing the Sundayists' distortion of Mt28:1.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

God said of Abraham "HE KEPT My COMMANDMENTS and STATUTES and LAWS" Gen 26:5 just as God commands Israel to do in Deut 27:10


I don't think Abraham had the Lev 23 annual feast days nor do I think he had the CIVIL laws for the nation of Israel.

But I DO think He had the SAME Seventh-day of Creation WEEK that was MADE HOLY in Gen 2:3 and I think He had the Ten Commandment law of God - but not on tablets of stone or written in a book.

In Christ,

Bob

GE:
I tend to agree with you Abraham knew of the Seventh Day Sabbath, but by inference merely, for in the rest of the Scriptures it is clear God revealed His Sabbath Day where and when he led out the captives from bondage into freedom. Goad also called Abraham to come out of his fatherland and to inherit the Promised Land; therefore I can see howcome God would have revealed His Day of Rest to Abraham too. But I cannot see it otherwise. Abraham have not yet received the Law in the form of the TC -- he received in the Promise of the messiah only -- and that was enough for a true knowledge of the Sabbath. Some people today still need to learn that.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Fear of what? God being mad at me because I don't go to church on Saturday? Preposterous. Fear of being identified with Roman Catholicism? Nope. So, tell me, O All-Knowing One, fear of what?

GE:
Just hear yourself here: that, is scared man.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

So Gerhard,
When do you suggest we worship if not Sunday? How about Tuesday night? Saturday morning? Oh I hope so, then we can watch 60 minutes we now miss because of Sunday evening.

GE:
I watch our 'boeresport' this side of the ocean, rugby, on the Sabbath Day. Why not? Because it is God's Day of Rest and therefore also man's day to rest? Well, if I so rest and am rejuvinated? (Nowadays more distressed because we do so badly!)
Let me make myself clear once more: The Sabbath is one day specifically, the Day of God's choice and of no man's, the Seventh Day of the week, the Day upon which HE, finished, all, His, works, and therein rested, and blessed, and sanctified, and created, the Day the Sabbath of the LORD your God. So He raised Christ from the dead in the Sabbath, so we His People, may rest too in Him, upon this Day the Lord's Day.
In this way the Seventh Day of the week became the day of God's worship as man's duty.
Although I watch my rugby on the Lord's Day (Saturday) I worshipped Him first to the best of my ability which ALWAYS falls short of perfection, nevertheless and despite, in Him, Jesus Christ, before God is offered an acceptable human, fallible offering in thankfulness and joy. I ENJOY God's Sabbath, simply. That enjoyment will so much be the poorer without Congregational worship. I am a pauper; I yearn the richness of God through Christ. That's why I gladly receive His Sabbath Day, for the reaching after His riches in and through Jesus Christ.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Grahame:
"I believe that Christ is our Sabbath. The Sabbath is the shadow, the type of things to come, "

GE:
C=S; S=(s+t); Therefore, C=s+t.

???

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Grahame:
" I wonder how these rules of the Sabbath, whatever day it falls on, can be applied to doctors and nurses and the emergency services? And also the electricity companies and other services and professions which we in this modern age depend upon? "

GE:

The Sabbath is not about our works, but about God's. Ultimately the Sabbath became the fulfilment-day of "ALL the works of God", even of all His works "God spake thus concerning the Seventh Day" -- "through the Son ... in these last days". Then because of all God's "Energy exercised" (Eph1:19) upon this day the Seventh of the week "WHEN He raised Christ from the dead", it is CONCLUDED: "IF THEN JESUS HAD GIVEN THEM REST", and, "SEEING HE HAS ENTERED INTO HIS OWN REST AS GOD IN HIS OWN (or 'at rest'), "THEREFORE BECAUSE OF IT a keeping of the Sabbath Day remains valid for the People of God."

This should answer to every reasonable man, the above question. I cannot see an honest person's conscience accusing him for working good works on this day the Day of God's own UTMOST working and refraining from selfish, profit-inclined 'own' works, if for him the Sabbath is about God's "own rest".

 

[DHK]

GE:
This getting monotonous and very boring, you just saying over and over again your old misquotes. I showed you the actual Scripture; answer me on that if you can. Again: answer what stands there plainly in the AV, in Knoch's, in Young's, in the ASV (if I think of the right one), in Marshall's, in Tyndale's, in AT Robertson, and, in the GREEK. Then try repeat your echoeing the Sundayists' distortion of Mt28:1.

Go back to page 5, and post #45, and you can read a fairly lengthy post of mine where I have dealt with Scripture and backed up what I said with other Greek scholars. If you disagree your disagreement will only be based on your opinion only. For what I posted is what I have read in almost every commentary that I came across on the subject.

 

[DHK]

GE:
I watch our 'boeresport' this side of the ocean, rugby, on the Sabbath Day. Why not? Because it is God's Day of Rest and therefore also man's day to rest? Well, if I so rest and am rejuvinated? (Nowadays more distressed because we do so badly!)

The day of rest was meant for a day of rest and refreshing (spiritually) for the soul. By engaging in such profane activities you have violated the Sabbath. You have wilfully condoned others in breaking the Sabbath (those playing the sport), and yet your conscience doesn't bother you. What hypocrisy! You say you keep the Sabbath holy? Is watching sports holy? God forbid that such ungodly activity should be considered holy! The profanity, the revelry, the loose and immoral lives of most sports players, and the immoral wages that they are paid...HOLY!!!! Certainly you have more sense than this. I have lost all respect for you who claims to keep the Sabbath holy. You would have been stoned under OT law.

Let me make myself clear once more: The Sabbath is one day specifically, the Day of God's choice and of no man's, the Seventh Day of the week, the Day upon which HE, finished, all, His, works, and therein rested, and blessed, and sanctified, and created, the Day the Sabbath of the LORD your God.

So far so good.

So He raised Christ from the dead in the Sabbath,

No he did not. Scripture after Scripture tells us that Christ was raised on the first day of the week--Sunday--the Lord's Day. This is an indisputable fact. He died Friday and was raised Sunday.

so we His People, may rest too in Him, upon this Day the Lord's Day.
In this way the Seventh Day of the week became the day of God's worship as man's duty.

This is your imagination speaking; not Scripture. It's a nice story, but not found in Scripture.

Although I watch my rugby on the Lord's Day (Saturday) I worshipped Him first to the best of my ability which ALWAYS falls short of perfection, nevertheless and despite, in Him, Jesus Christ, before God is offered an acceptable human, fallible offering in thankfulness and joy. I ENJOY God's Sabbath, simply. That enjoyment will so much be the poorer without Congregational worship. I am a pauper; I yearn the richness of God through Christ. That's why I gladly receive His Sabbath Day, for the reaching after His riches in and through Jesus Christ.

For Sabbath worshippers (of which I am not)

Thou shalt keep holy the Sabbath day!

You have profaned the Sabbath. By law you should be stoned, for the Sabbath is an OT institution. Now if you keep the Sabbath day holy, why do you profane it at the same time? You are a very confused person.

 

[grahame]

Grahame:
" I wonder how these rules of the Sabbath, whatever day it falls on, can be applied to doctors and nurses and the emergency services? And also the electricity companies and other services and professions which we in this modern age depend upon? "

GE:

The Sabbath is not about our works, but about God's. Ultimately the Sabbath became the fulfilment-day of "ALL the works of God", even of all His works "God spake thus concerning the Seventh Day" -- "through the Son ... in these last days". Then because of all God's "Energy exercised" (Eph1:19) upon this day the Seventh of the week "WHEN He raised Christ from the dead", it is CONCLUDED: "IF THEN JESUS HAD GIVEN THEM REST", and, "SEEING HE HAS ENTERED INTO HIS OWN REST AS GOD IN HIS OWN (or 'at rest'), "THEREFORE BECAUSE OF IT a keeping of the Sabbath Day remains valid for the People of God."

This should answer to every reasonable man, the above question. I cannot see an honest person's conscience accusing him for working good works on this day the Day of God's own UTMOST working and refraining from selfish, profit-inclined 'own' works, if for him the Sabbath is about God's "own rest".

This obviously does not apply to you, because from reading your own words you don't keep it anyway.
Also the writer to the Hebrews was talking about the rest that Christ worked out for us. He is not talking about us or the Jews keeping the Sabbath day. He is talking about salvation. "There remaineth a rest for the people of God". That is what he is saying. He is telling his Jewish hearers that Christ has finally accomplished our salvation by the work that he did on the cross and therefore if we believe in him, we also have ceased from our works. We are at rest in him. That is what it is saying. Unfortunately you have this bee in your bonnet about keeping the Sabbath (which obviously you do not keep anyway, apparently) that you cannot see the real argument of the writer to the Hebrews.

 

[BobRyan]

GE:
I watch our 'boeresport' this side of the ocean, rugby, on the Sabbath Day. Why not? Because it is God's Day of Rest and therefore also man's day to rest? Well, if I so rest and am rejuvinated? (Nowadays more distressed because we do so badly!)

Distressed note -- is noted.

In Isaiaih 58 Christ said that the sabbath is not a day for self-indulgence "doing your own pleasure" but rather it is the "Holy Day of the LORD" and we are to turn our foot ASIDE from simply doing our own pleasure on that day.

It is a day for worship "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall aLL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Isaiah 66.

In God we find rest.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:
"For what I posted is what I have read in almost every commentary that I came across on the subject."

GE:
This explains your viewpoint. You don't think you'll ever find a commentary against tradition? In the second place, how recent are these commentaries etc? I don't think of very long ago.

Now I have exhausted the dictionaries and commentaries and originals available to me from (as I have before said) the best library in South Africa and I think one of the best in the world, the Hans Merensky Library of the University of Pretoria. Bu cross-referencing them, I think I may say I have about consulted the full range of sources on the subject of the Texts involved from the earliest (+-fifteen hundreds) up to the 1970's? These were scientific stuff, not prejudiced parotting of the popular. Part of my investigation can be found at http://www.biblestudents.co.za, the book, 'The Lord's Day in the Covenant of Grace'. (I can't remember how many volumes and pages). TRUE SCHOLARS SAY WHAT I HAVE PRESENTED TO YOU -- not fame-seekers.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Distressed note -- is noted.

In Isaiaih 58 Christ said that the sabbath is not a day for self-indulgence "doing your own pleasure" but rather it is the "Holy Day of the LORD" and we are to turn our foot ASIDE from simply doing our own pleasure on that day.

It is a day for worship "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall aLL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Isaiah 66.

In God we find rest.

In Christ,

Bob

GE:

Sure,Bob. I also believe so, sincerely. But it won't be of any avail to lie about my fulfilling the absolute will of God concerning His Sabbath Day. I confess I'm a complete failure. I very much long for the day I shall keep the Sabbath at the feet of Jesus Christ on the New Earth -- maybe sitting next to you? who knows? God be praised we may entertain such hope!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

This obviously does not apply to you, because from reading your own words you don't keep it anyway.
Also the writer to the Hebrews was talking about the rest that Christ worked out for us. He is not talking about us or the Jews keeping the Sabbath day. He is talking about salvation. "There remaineth a rest for the people of God". That is what he is saying. He is telling his Jewish hearers that Christ has finally accomplished our salvation by the work that he did on the cross and therefore if we believe in him, we also have ceased from our works. We are at rest in him. That is what it is saying. Unfortunately you have this bee in your bonnet about keeping the Sabbath (which obviously you do not keep anyway, apparently) that you cannot see the real argument of the writer to the Hebrews.

You say, I "don't keep it (the Sabbath) anyway".
It isn't true. I do keep it the best I can - which to man may be not keeping it anyway - but to God in Jesus Christ is reckoned no less than perfect - it is grace, you see I live by and under.

But I don't like talking about me or us, 'keeping' the Sabbath - for it is God's Sabbath and in His keeping - yes in fact this day He is so jealous and particular about He protects it with His Word of Oath. People get the jitters so angry they get when hearing it.

Second 'but': But I BELIEVE, "THE SEVENTH DAY THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD". 'Keeping the Sabbath' of the best of men is nothing to the believing of the Lord's Day of the weakest of men. The first is self-centred; the last is Christ-centred. So I enjoy been classed with the bad keepers. You don't offend me; you complement me.

GE:

"... he is not talking about ... keeping the Sabbath day. He is talking about salvation. "There remaineth a rest for the people of God". That is what he is saying."

Sure the writer talks about the rest that Christ worked out for us. Sure he is not talking about our, or the Jews' keeping of the Sabbath Day. He is in fact talking about salvation. Throughout the chapter and context that is what he is saying.

BUT - again - then the writer CONCLUDES: "ThereFORE there remaineth a KEEPING OF the Sabbath Day for the people of God".
It is silly to say Jesus had given us and Jesus had entered into His own rest as God in His own, while that rest still remains for us to enter into. We have entered it through and in Jesus already, and that is why a keeping remains obligatory for us the people of God of God's Day of Rest the Sabbath Day.

And it would have been even sillier of the writer to say he who has entered into the rest must enter into the rest yet -- which is what your 'version' makes the writer to say. No, the writer isn't silly, and shows he isn't by using a completely different word than the word 'rest' which he has so lavishly employed throughout the chapter. I have said it before, but must remind you once more, the writer had an ample vocabulary; he knew which words to use where. So don't come with your amateurish audacity in defiance of simple facts of truth. The writer says a "sabbatismos" remains -- NOT an "ana/katapausis". Ana/katapausis is what both the Lord Jesus had entered into already, and now upon the strength of it, "there remains valid for the People of God a keeping of the Sabbath Day". That is what he saying, once, but once enough.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Grahame:

"Unfortunately you have this bee in your bonnet about keeping the Sabbath"

GE:

In one chapter of the Bible, God says seven times that His People insulted Him by not respecting His Sabbath Day -- SEVEN TIMES! It sounds like He had .... no I won't be that disrespectful.

But Grahame has got a bee in his bonnet too, that he will not mind God's Day for His People, ha, ha, ha!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:

"The day of rest was meant for a day of rest and refreshing (spiritually) for the soul. By engaging in such profane activities you have violated the Sabbath. You have wilfully condoned others in breaking the Sabbath (those playing the sport), and yet your conscience doesn't bother you. What hypocrisy! You say you keep the Sabbath holy? Is watching sports holy? God forbid that such ungodly activity should be considered holy! The profanity, the revelry, the loose and immoral lives of most sports players, and the immoral wages that they are paid...HOLY!!!! Certainly you have more sense than this. I have lost all respect for you who claims to keep the Sabbath holy. You would have been stoned under OT law."

GE:

O lord judge DHK, forgive me my offence, o merciful compassionate master redeemer?

Have I not read somewhere DHK wrote even a man dying in the act of adultary is saved? But his poor Sabbath-breaker found no compassion in his great heart!