Prozac

[Bible Believing Bill]

DD Open your mind. I don't dispute that some depression is caused by sin. I do dispute that all depression is caused by sin.

Is Schizophrenia caused by sin? Is Posttraumatic Stress Disorder cause by sin? Is Atusim caused by sin? Is Alzheimer's caused by sin? Is Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder caused by sin?

The only connection any of these mental illinesses have with sin is through original sin. Orginal sin brought sickness into the garden. If the body can be sick, why do you refuse to believe the mind can be sick? People with mental illnesses need medical attention, they do not need people like you judging them. If they are in sin then God will deal with them. What you should do is support them, and help them to get better, not pass judgment upon them!

If you have not experienced a mental illness or had to care for someone with a mental illness then you have no idea of the pain that person is in.

If I wallow in my own self pity, or refuse to deal with a loss I am committing a sin. However if I simply can't control my mind I am no more in sin than someone who has cancer.

Bill

 

[littlewhitedove]

Well I'll be. I wouldn't have guessed in this day and age that there is still people so uneducated about depression.
There is a difference in depressants and anti-depressants. Depressants do make you sleepy or lazy or alter your mind,just like beer would do you.
In Ecclesiastes King Solomon talks about his own depression and how it effected his life and death. There are several prophets who were so depressed that some thought of giving up. Paul ask God to remove the thorn from his side and God refused. We don't know what his thorn in his side was, it very well could of been depression.

Thinking that depression is sin is "not thinking clearly". We know you just don't understand the extent of the this kind of illness.I understand someone getting depressed if they have sinned and not confessed it to the Lord and the Holy Spirit is convicting them. Their shame causes them to feel depressed. I pray you never know the deepth of the manic depressed. It's not just being sad it's an illness.

 

[littlewhitedove]

Bill I agree with your postings.

 

[Charles Meadows]

Daniel David,

You may have done some research but you're still wrong. Prozac is not mind control - it's a drug to help deal with a chemical imbalance. People have different heights, hair colors, intelligence levels etc. As such they have different mental abilities and quirks. Depression DOES in fact have a chemical basis. As such it is not a sin. What is sinful is not dealing with it in the appropriate ways. And taking a non-habit forming medicine that often works is NOT sinful.

What is also sinful is putting words into God's mouth - and perhaps making alot of troubled people feel worse in the process.

 

[PastorGreg]

While DD comes across a little strong, I agree that this is another area in which the church has bought into the philosophy of the world. Where is the Biblical basis for "mental illness"? Every time you see someone in Scripture whom we might describe that way, it is considered a spiritual issue. Many labels are, in fact, simply excuses for sin. e.g. Obsessive-compulsive (which Scripture calls lack of self-control), ODD (which Scripture calls rebellion), etc. If there is no hope for these issues such as depression, outside of medication, what did believers do until the 20th century when all of this came up? Maybe they believed God when He said His Word gives us all things that pertain to life and godliness. BTW, it is theoretical that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. There is not one shred of scientific evidence to support the claim.

 

[Charles Meadows]

PastorGreg,

There are plenty of shreds of evidence supporting a biological basis for depression. This is just not even debatable.

You are missing the distinctions made by scripture. For an individual who has symptoms of depression to "wallow" in things and seek drugs to make it "go away" is sin.

For a believer who has these symptoms to pray for strength and deal with things, including perhaps taking drugs like serotonin reuptake inhibitors is not sin.

Anyone who says that all mental illness is a result of sin in one's life and should not be treated simply DOES NOT UNDERSTAND what mental illness is.

 

[Bible Believing Bill]

PastorGreg,

Why is it ok to take an antibotic, and not an antidepressent? If one is OK then the other is OK if one is not then the other is not. What did a believer do before antidepressents? What did he do before pennicillin? The answer to both is that he suffered from his illness.

Bill

 

[PastorGreg]

There is no scientific proof that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. Even the adds for anti-depressants say, "Depression may be caused..." They do not know. It is a guess.
There is a huge difference between an antibiotic and an anti-depressant. The body is physical. The mind is spiritual.
Interesting that you guys do not address the Biblical issues. Does God's Word contain "all things that pertain to life and godliness" as it claims, or not?

 

[PastorGreg]

Let me qualify my last post. I have never said that there is no place for medication in treating depression. There may be cases where it is necessary on a temporary basis. But let's be honest, the whole "chemical imbalance" thing is theoretical.

 

[Charles Meadows]

PastorGreg,

Again - we KNOW there are biochemical differences in the brains of those with depression. We do have "scientific proof". We know that the cerebrospinal fluid of depressed patients contains less hydroxyindoleacetic acid - this is a sign of low serotonin levels. We also know that certain brain regions of certain depressed patient metabolize glucose at different levels. The whole "biogenic amine" idea started in the 1950s when patients treated with reserpine (for high blood pressure) had severe depression. Reserpine is known to decrease concentrations of serotonin and noradrenaline in the brain.

You (because you are a pastor) need to understand the differences in "drugs". Someone who is dependent on Valium for "sanity" and who refuses to accept any responsibility for bettering him/herself IS living in sin. On the contrary, someone who "JUST FEELS SAD FOR NO REASON" yet still asks God for strength to deal with things should not simply be told he/she needs to pray harder.

Bill's anaology to antibiotics is really pretty good. When Timothy had abdominal pain Paul didn't tell him to take "the purple pill" - but that doesn't make it sinful to take medicines if we have them. If you can show me in the bible where Jesus for Paul specifically said not to use SSRIs then I'll give in.

You need to realize that you as a pastor wield alot of influence over people's lives. If you are too quick to dismiss these things (for a lack of knowledge) you may seriously damage the faith of a brother/sister in Christ struggling with depression or another mental illness.

Now I'll be the first to agree that medicine is only a small part of the solution - not a "cure-all". The most important thing is a relationship with Christ and a faith that He will help us through things.

I'm a Christian AND a doctor who (unfortunately) sees alot of patients with mental illness. I can tell you 100% that one who says that mental illness doesn not exist is WRONG!

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by PastorGreg:
The body is physical. The mind is spiritual.

Sounds like you've divorced “the mind” from the body, which sounds more like Gnosticism than anything else.

Does the brain have anything to do with "the mind"? Obviously, yes.

If someone has damage or imbalance to their brain, does that affect the mind? Obviously, yes.

We are both spiritual and physical, and the relationship is interactive.

Interesting that you guys do not address the Biblical issues. Does God's Word contain "all things that pertain to life and godliness" as it claims, or not?

I didn't realize it claimed to be a textbook for all medical knowledge. Can you post a reference to this claim?

Furthermore, can you post a biblical reference for heart bypass surgery or penicillin?

Should we go to the dentist to get our teeth repaired since we don't have a biblical mandate? Should I have refused the Novocain last time I had a root canal?

Should I have rejected the anesthetic when I had surgery last year and rejected the morphine when I was in the recovery ward?

 

[PastorGreg]

Charles, I will gladly deal with the issues my people face believing that Almighty God and His inspired word are better equipped to handle them than some person trained in anti-God philosphies.

You are making the age old humanistic mistake of arguing from your experience rather than the authority of Scripture. Was there "mental illness" in Biblical times? Of course. How was it dealt with? As a spiritual issue.

How about this for a radical thought - is it possible that God might actually use depression in the process of molding some of His children into the image of Christ? Would He do such a thing for His own glory? Read John Piper's "The Swans Are not Silent." How many thousands have been ministered to by the works of William Cowper, who lived an often tortured life of dark depression? Today, God still ministers to people through some of the powerful works that sprang from His trials. Or how about Spurgeon? I wonder what his sermons that so many of us still read, would be like if he had been on Prozac, etc.? How much of His deep understanding of the nature of God and spiritual truth was learned in the crucible of his depression?

You're right about similarities between antibiotics and antidepressants - they're both way overused.

 

[Charles Meadows]

PastorGreg,

I won't disagree with your last sentence - for it is definitely accurate.

The bible doesn't claim to be a textbook of medicine. As such it doesn't prohibit treatment of illnesses, including depression. By your own admission Spurgeon did suffer from depression - why was he depressed? Because he just was! And he dealt with it in a Godly manner. I wonder what Spurgeon WOULD say if asked if he would have minded taken a mild antidepressant which would have aleviated SOME of his suffering!

I'm not saying this meanly - but I don't think you understand what some of these people go through. As I said as - a pastor you hold alot of sway.

And you might want to abandon the "anti-God intellectual" thing - it makes US ALL (as Christians) look silly! God is not limited, and we are not threatened by knowledge.

 

[JGrubbs]

I have a close family member who has rapid cycling bipolar disorder, the doctors had them on Paxil, Celexa, Zoloft, etc., but nothing seemed to help. The side effects of this medicine was terrible.

They now take 5HTP for the depression and lithium orotate for the manic episodes and have been stable with no manic episodes and only mild depression from time to time for almost two years now with no side effects.

 

[Daniel David]

Until one of you drug proponents can actually deal with the words of Paul, this is meaningless. Sorry.

 

[Charles Meadows]

So not only does Daniel David not understand neurobiology (one of those sinful -ologies) but he also evidently does not understand Paul either. I'm pretty familiar with Philippians and don't remember anything about not taking medicine. And by the way why did Paul not just tell Timothy to only pray about his stomach ailment in 1 Tim 5:23? He didn't tell him to take a drug (ethanol) did he?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
So not only does Daniel David not understand neurobiology (one of those sinful -ologies) but he also evidently does not understand Paul either. I'm pretty familiar with Philippians and don't remember anything about not taking medicine. And by the way why did Paul not just tell Timothy to only pray about his stomach ailment in 1 Tim 5:23? He didn't tell him to take a drug (ethanol) did he?

Amen, Brother Charles Meadows -- Preach it!

1 Timothy 5:8 (HCSB):
Now if anyone does not provide for his own relatives,
and especially for his household, he has denied the faith
and is worse than an unbeliever

I assume this means practicing 21st Century
medicine instead of 1st century medicine --
if you can afford it.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
So not only does Daniel David not understand neurobiology (one of those sinful -ologies) but he also evidently does not understand Paul either. I'm pretty familiar with Philippians and don't remember anything about not taking medicine. And by the way why did Paul not just tell Timothy to only pray about his stomach ailment in 1 Tim 5:23? He didn't tell him to take a drug (ethanol) did he?

I respectfully decline your invitation to join you in your delusion.

I have said that depression is sin.

Paul didn't say anything about MEDICINE in Philippians, but he did say plenty about the mind.

Oh wait, let me understand you guys a little. Depression is a modern phenomena that has taken place right before we have invented the cure. Nobody got depressed prior to this century.

Uh, nevermind that argument.

Consider the words of Paul in Philippians 4 regarding the mind. It will really open yours.

Btw, Paul told Timothy to use the wine because of stomach problems. Would you care to explain what that problem was? The wine was used to deaden the pain, not cover up a sin.

If you all think I am advocating word of faith trash, you are wrong. Hinn and the others are mindless fools and utterly worthless.

Ed, please pay attention to the thread and stop spamming it.

 

[Charles Meadows]

OK - now I'm really sure you don't understand Paul!

By the way, you can come with me to the psych ward some time and see if mental illness really exists!

 

[Daniel David]

I know mental problems exist. Our difference isn't the diagnosis. It is the cure.

By the way, would you care to explain Paul?