Psalm 100

That's a great verse Dallas. I'm not quite sure what it is about that verse you want us to consider for debate?

 

I'm obviously not reading it with a Calvinistic bias, so your going to have to point it out to me.

 

It's easy, Bill. Calvinists think that all non-Calvinists must believe that we made ourselves, since Arminians are all about how powerful and cool man is. This passage says that God made us, so we Arminians must be wrong.

 

Yes, Dallas we know what the scripture says. As Scott pointed out, it says "God made us."

Does anyone on this board dispute that God is the creator of the saved and the lost?

I still honestly don't know where you are going with this. Sorry, I'm trying.

 

The psalm says nothing about children:

Psalms 100:1 ¶<<A Psalm of praise.>> Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all ye lands.
2 Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing.
3 Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
4 Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.
5 For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.

The Israelites were his people, and the sheep of his pasture. My guess is that is the antecedent of "we" and "us."

 

At the time the Psalm was written most Israelites would have thought that the sheep were Jews. But we later see that Israel is not Israel, but Israel are those who are the children of the promise. This means that the sheep are those who enter covenant through the means of faith, not through being born to Abraham or by keeping the works of the law. So the sheep are those who believe.

I know where you are going. You'll quote John 10 where Jesus says to the Pharisees, "you don't believe because you are not my sheep." But you fail to understand the context of this verse. Jesus has just explained that there are two groups of sheep that must be brought in. The first group are the Jewish believers, these are Jews who were not hardened, also refered to as the remnant in Romans. The second group was the Gentiles.

Those in Israel who were not of the Remnant were hardened and unable to believe as John 12:37-41 clearly explains in detail, therefore they were not of the first group of sheep who were being granted entrance into covenant at that time. Later we see that many of these same people very well could have come to believe in Acts 2 and 3. Hardened Israel could not have been his sheep at the time he was still on earth, but that doesn't mean that once their hardening came to an end that they might not believe at a later time.

 

I got it!

God didn't choose Israel, He just pretended to choose Israel. But what He was really doing is choosing everybody who would choose Him because He didn't really just choose Israel or anybody else in particular.

Oh yea, I forgot, He hardened some of them because He didn't want them to choose Him but yet He elected some of the others whom He didn't harden to show the rest of them how not to be hardened and to choose Him.

 

No, he really did choose Israel. The Gentiles are said to be "grafted on" to the branch (Romans 10-11). However, we both know that not all of the Israelites were children of God - otherwise, we'd have such unsavory characters as Ahab and Jezebel included in the mix. The question is this: How could he choose Israel, yet not Israel were children of God?

But, your last "question" is interesting. Is it possible that God could have chosen those who would choose Him? If he truly knows everything outside of time, would this have been too hard for God? God chose the nation of Israel not because of anything they had done; indeed, it was done even before they were even a nation! Later, God chose to establish a church made up of anyone who would follow Him. This didn't negate his first choosing, although the details and nitty-gritty of all this should be left for another post, or indeed, several books!

Not in my doctrine - I guess that's Bill's.

 

We are saved by Grace THROUGH FAITH.

If you want to call faith a merit, fine, but Grace aint coming without it.

 

1. He hardened Israel. That is a fact. Do you deny it?

2. From Israel he reserved a remnant. That too is a fact. Do you deny that?

3. Of that remnant he chose 12 to be apostles and carry the gospel to the world. That is a fact. Do you deny it?

4. I never said anything about God not wanting Israel to choose Him. That is your own straw man. God longed to gather Israel under his wings of salvation (Matt. 23:37). And even in their being hardened he desired that it would result in their being provoked to envy so that they too might be saved (Romans 11).

 

I'm sorry Dallas, maybe my brain is just not working today, but I'm not following your point. I never quoted the Bill of Rights as a defense for my views. Did someone else?

 

The point can also be argued that Calvinists make reference to a Hellenistic view of God. Even though it is not a directly made referece, it is the influence of such philosophers that men hold dear that first they imagine the Word of God to conform to those which are written by and among men who believed in a Greek form of sovereignty.

 

It brings up thoughts of Psalm 50:10. "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills."

Seems like all that exists is His, whether it be sheep, beasts, cattle, why would humanity be any different?