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Psalm 77:2

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Logos1560, Mar 13, 2005.

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  1. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    For the middle section of Psalm 77:2, the 1535 Coverdale's Bible has the following:

    "I held up my hands unto him in the night season"

    The 1537 Matthew's Bible kept this same rendering with a slight change: "mine" for "my."

    The 1568 Bishops' Bible (the second authorized English Bible) rendered it:

    "my hand all the night catched and ceased not."

    On the other hand, the 1611 KJV rendered it:

    "my sore ran and ceased not in the night."

    The KJV translators in their marginal note gave the literal meaning of the Hebrew word that they rendered "sore" as the following:
    "Heb. my hand."

    Is the KJV's rendering at this verse a literal translation or a dynamic equivalency?
     
    #1 Logos1560, Mar 13, 2005
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord;
    In the night my hand was stretched out without weariness;
    My soul refused to be comforted.

    yad nagar = "hand stretched out"

    "sores" = Heb. "makkah", not used in this verse
     
    #2 Dr. Bob, Mar 13, 2005
  3. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    About Psalm 77:2, Charles Spurgeon wrote: "It appears that this sentence is wrongly translated, and should be, 'my hand was stretched out all night,' this shews that his prayer ceased not, but with uplifted hand he continued to seek succour of his God" (TREASURY OF DAVID, Vol. II, p. 312).
     
    #3 Logos1560, Mar 14, 2005
  4. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Just another little goof that KJVOs refuse to acknowledge to exist.
     
    #4 robycop3, Mar 14, 2005
  5. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Do those who hold a KJV-only view consider this KJV rendering at Psalm 77:2 to be a "goof" or do
    they have an explanation as to why the KJV
    did not translate literally the Hebrew word
    for "hand?"
     
    #5 Logos1560, Mar 17, 2005
  6. David J

    David J New Member

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    Yet again KJVOist answer these types of hard questions with silence. This is disturbing because it is evidence that many KJVOist take a blind-eye approach to errors in the KJV text: Acts 5:30 & Easter for example, while uplifting the KJV as the only valid bible!

    No spin?

    No answers?

    And I thought KJVOism had an answer for every goof in the KJV text. I guess I was wrong [​IMG]

    And please refrain from any personal attacks. Remember that lurkers are reading these boards and personal attacks only hurt all of us.

    Thanks all.
     
    #6 David J, Mar 17, 2005
  7. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Psalm 77:2, from the NIV:

    When I was in distress, I sought the Lord;

    at night I stretched out untiring hands

    and my soul refused to be comforted.

    From the NKJV:

    In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord;
    My hand was stretched out in the night without ceasing;
    My soul refused to be comforted.

    From the YLT:

    In a day of my distress the Lord I sought, My hand by night hath been spread out, And it doth not cease, My soul hath refused to be comforted.

    From the HCS:

    In my day of trouble I sought the Lord.
    My hands were lifted up all night long;
    I refused to be comforted.

    In the KJV, the context eliminates any possibility that in this case sore means extreme, I.E. "Mordred was sore afraid of Arthur".

    I also find it very strange the KJV renders it "sore" while saying the Hebrew means "hands" in a marginal note. "Sore" just doesn't fit the context.

    I will second Logos' question: What sayest thou, O KJVOs?
     
    #7 robycop3, Mar 17, 2005
  8. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Logos, are you sure about Coverdale?

    My source has "In the time of my trouble I sought the Lord; my sore ran, and ceased not in the night-season; my soul refused comfort," the same reading as in the Book of Common Prayer.
     
    #8 rsr, Mar 17, 2005
  9. gopchad

    gopchad New Member

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    I am not KJVO, but rather a KJV preferred person (somewhere on the #2 side of a #3 by your definitions, that is I am more than a #2, but do not completely agree with #3), so I cannot answer for the KJVO's, but I have the Geneva Bible (e-sword 1587 ed.) with the same translation.

    Psa 77:2 Geneva
    In the day of my trouble I sought ye Lord: my sore ranne and ceased not in the night: my soule refused comfort.

    I looked up "sore" in Webster's 1828 and found a definiton of:

    3. In Scriptures, grief; affliction. 2 Chr 6.

    I would conjecture (and that is exactly my attempt here, not trying to justify the translation) that perhaps they were trying to use imagery for affliction. The outstretched hands perhaps picturing the type of prayer intensity that Christ showed us in the Garden.

    The way I am conjecturing what the Geneva and KJ translators had in mind here

    Psa 77:2 In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord: my affliction continued in the night, and ceased not: my soul refused to be comforted.


    Barnes seems to think they were assuming in the context there was some sort of sore or injury. This seems unlikely to me.

    Since it is repeated from the Geneva, they seem to have had a reason for keeping it, or at least understood what the Geneva was saying; but it certainly does not appear the best translation possible, and they would have been better to have translated the text literally here if they were trying to DE or some sort of imagery.

    My $0.02

    Chad
     
    #9 gopchad, Mar 17, 2005
  10. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    I had checked the 1535 Coverdale's Bible online
    at www.studylight.org and had used my quote from it. After you asked about it, I went and checked a printed photocopy of Coverdale's Bible I have, and it has the same rendering that I found online. The 1535 Coverdale's and 1537 Matthew's are usually the same or very close for the O. T. books Ezra thru Malachi.
     
    #10 Logos1560, Mar 18, 2005
  11. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    I wondered if anyone would check the other
    pre-1611 English Bibles. I knew that the Geneva
    Bible had a rendering almost like the KJV's with just a phrase moved. Thus, the Geneva Bible could have influenced the KJV at this verse. I have come across one other possible influence or source for the KJV's and Geneva's rendering, but I was giving KJV-only advocates a little time to see they would do their homework about this verse.

    The Geneva Bible also gives a literal rendering in a marginal note: "Or, mine hand was stretched out."

    Luther's German Bible and the 1637 Dutch Bible use a word that means "hand" at this verse. Haak's 1657 English translation of the Dutch authorized version has the following for this section of Psalm 77:2: "my hand was stretched out by night, and ceased not."
     
    #11 Logos1560, Mar 18, 2005
  12. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Sorry, Logos. What I thought were the 1535 Coverdale Psalms apparently were Tyndale's revision from the Great Bible. Since the Great Bible was revised with help from Geneva, perhaps that's the source of the rendering.
     
    #12 rsr, Mar 18, 2005
  13. gopchad

    gopchad New Member

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    So why did the translators use (or keep) this translation with a marginal note giving the literal meaning? I do not believe they would have used it without good reason.
     
    #13 gopchad, Mar 18, 2005
  14. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    John Gill traces the translation to Rabbi David Kimchi:

    Compare to Edward Cook's English translation of the Psalms Targum:

     
    #14 rsr, Mar 18, 2005
  15. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, that it is the same likely source that I found for the Geneva's and KJV's rendering at Psalm 77:2--the interpretation of Rabbi David Kimchi (1160-1235)[also known by the acronym Radak].

    David Daiches wrote: "The A. V. translators as a whole depended on Kimchi to a quite surprising degree: he was the only Jewish commentator whom they used continuously" (KJV OF THE ENGLISH BIBLE, p. 153).
     
    #15 Logos1560, Mar 18, 2005
  16. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    That is surprising. This is about as straightforward a translation issue as we have and a very "suspect" choice. Odd to try to add Jewish mystical/figurative language here.
     
    #16 Dr. Bob, Mar 19, 2005
  17. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    In his 1848 KJV commentary, Adam Clarke wrote: "This is a most unaccountable translation; the literal meaning of 'yadi niggerah, which we translate 'my sore ran,' is, my hand was stretched out,' i. e., in prayer. He continued during the whole night with his voice and hands lifted up to God, and 'ceased not,' even in the midst of great discouragement" (Vol. III, p. 462).

    If a modern English translation followed the interpretation of an unsaved Jewish commentator
    and gave a dynamic equivalency instead of a literal rendering of the Hebrew, would KJV-only
    advocates accept it as valid?
     
    #17 Logos1560, Mar 19, 2005
  18. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    I THINK(not sure) that "sore" is in the Geneva Bible also. (I loaned out my copy of the GB)

    Maybe the AV copied from the GB??
     
    #18 robycop3, Mar 21, 2005
  19. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, it was mentioned on page one that "sore" is in the Geneva Bible. The likely source or influence on both the Geneva and KJV was the
    interpretation of this verse by Rabbi David Kimchi
    (1160-1235).

    Does the KJV-only view defend a literal translation or a dynamic equivalency at Psalm 77:2?
     
    #19 Logos1560, Mar 26, 2005
  20. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Are there valid reasons why KJV-only advocates are avoiding discussing this verse?
     
    #20 Logos1560, Apr 5, 2005
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