Purpose Driven/ Rick Warren stuff...

[C.R. Gordon]

Here is something for you Purpose Driven Folks to chew on for a bit...

http://www.biblebb.com/files/purpose.htm


Thoughts please...

 

[Molly]

I have read all these articles and agree totally!

 

[Johnv]

Tony Capoccia and his biblebb are entitled to their opinions. But theyr'e strictly their opinions. You know what they say about opinions. We all know what they're like, and everyone's got one.

I find it interesting that when someone puts their opions on a blog, all of a sudden, we're supposed to give that opinion more credibility. Not so.

 

[Molly]

These articles are based on God's Word and their(these men) stand on the sufficiency of scripture.

Maybe they just have a different view of scripture than you do.

 

[C.R. Gordon]

John,

are you really that goofy?

These men who wrote these are "CREDIBLE"

sheesh!
Alot of these men who wrote these attend or work with John McArthur...who is VERY credible.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Molly:
These articles are based on God's Word and their(these men) stand on the sufficiency of scripture.

My view is also based on God's word, and I also stand on the sufficiency of scripture. I disagree with these men, however.

Maybe they just have a different view of scripture than you do.

That doesn't make their conclusions correct. It only means their view disagrees with mine.

 

[C.R. Gordon]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Molly:
These articles are based on God's Word and their(these men) stand on the sufficiency of scripture.

My view is also based on God's word, and I also stand on the sufficiency of scripture. I disagree with these men, however.

Maybe they just have a different view of scripture than you do.

That doesn't make their conclusions correct. It only means their view disagrees with mine. </font>[/QUOTE]so there can be 2 TRUTHS?
I'm right, your right, no one is wrong? (we just disagree)?

 

[Molly]

Are you a theologian with many hours of scripture exposition? Are you committed to the preaching and teaching of the Word? Have you been trained to do so accurately? I realize we can all study and know God's Word and we should,but these men are solid biblically. I trust them. But,the final consensus is what does scripture say.

John MacArthur is one of the great teachers of our generation...to dismiss his teaching is based on an opinion of *I just don't agree* is somewhat premature,don't you think? Opinion should line up with scripture...scripture should dominate our thinking,not what we just like and think on our own.This takes many hours of deep serching and study...not just reading a couple of *christian books and articles*. That can get us in REAL trouble!

What teaching in scripture are you basing your opinion on? What great books have you read about these serious topics? Any from A.W. Pink,Jay Adams,J.C. Ryle,etc? I'm just curious who has helped shaped your opinions?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by C.R. Gordon:
so there can be 2 TRUTHS?
I'm right, your right, no one is wrong? (we just disagree)?

No, I think I'm right. They think they're right. I think they're wrong. They think I'm wrong. However, I respect their conclusion, though I disagree with it. Since it's not a doctrinal issue, I respect their right to disagree with me.

Originally posted by Molly:
Are you a theologian with many hours of scripture exposition? Are you committed to the preaching and teaching of the Word? Have you been trained to do so accurately?

Rick Warren is all those things. Will you give him the same courtesy as others?

Originally posted by Molly:
John MacArthur is one of the great teachers of our generation...to dismiss his teaching is based on an opinion of *I just don't agree* is somewhat premature,don't you think?

You mean, I'm forbidden to disagree with him, or any other theolgian? That sounds a little dangerous. In this case, when someone makes the claim that they studied with so-and-so, that's often a red flag to someone riding on the coattails of someone else's notariety. Preachers and authors do it all the time. Hyles and Calvin were great theologians, and there are plenty of faithful Baptists on this baord who disagree with them.

[ July 02, 2004, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Hyles ... were great theologians,

I certainly hope you are not referring to Jack Hyles ... No one ever mistook him for a theologian, though a few thought he was great ...

 

[Molly]

Yes,you can disagree with them. You have that right...I was just encouraging you to think through it before you for sure disagreed with him.

I don't always agree with everything I read from these guys,but for the most part,they are pretty solid.

I appreciate John MacArthur's strong stance on the sufficiency of scripture. He has a sermon on this on the bible bulletin board and it is excellent. We read this sermon when we ourselves were wavering on some issues our church was going throught at the time. It helped clarify somethings for us and brought us to a point where we had to choose God's ways or man's. We decided to trust God's Word for everything pertaining to life and godliness...our view of God and His Word was raised a notch and we became sold out to completely giving God the credit. We had been trusting in man's ways and ideas way too much.

We realized that just simply believing God's Word to be powerful and able to deal with the heart of man was all anyone really needed. Many people say they believe this,too...but how you live and what you do shows if you really believe in the sufficiency if scripture...if you are depending on programs,music style,catchy story sermons,etc,you are trusting in those things instead of the preaching of God's Word to be what works.

 

[Molly]

The sermons are found at www.biblebb.com under John's sermons and articles Bible (Under B) The sermons are titled *The Sufficiency of Scripture* Part 1 and 2. Both are excellent.

Anyone who is trying to figure all this out should read this. They get to the core of the problems and show how a church should handle the Word.

 

[Deacon]

Many the criticisms directed at Warren sound like simple grumblings. Grumblings cause division.

It’s almost like they are saying that Rick Warren is wrong because he does things differently than other pastors would do them. They could certainly write a much better book than him. It sounds like they are envious over his success, "Someone who does things as differently as Warren shouldn't be as successful as we are".

I myself liked the book, “The Purpose Driven Life” because of its simplicity. I bought a copy for my unsaved co-worker friend who openly admits that there is no real purpose in his life other than being as comfortable as he can make himself (he reluctantly accepted the copy but probably will never read it).

The articles did make some good points:
</font>

• I did find areas that needed further clarification.</font>

</font>

• I did find weaknesses in the book.</font>

</font>

• I did see verses taken out of context that would have been better supported by a deeper exposition of the Word.</font>

</font>

• And other weaknesses that were mentioned in the articles too.</font>

But I question the purpose of these articles. What drives those who wrote them? A desire to reach out to the unsaved using culturally relevant methods (as Paul did on Mar’s hill), a desire to see men and women develop in their walk with Christ, or a just a desire to keep things the way they have always been?

Much of the complaints about Warren sound like restless grumblings of the disenchanted rather than helpful encouragement we should encounter within the body of Christ.

IMO each church will have a different focus of ministry based upon the gifts God has blessed it with. Each church is different and each church will attract different people. For those that like stained glass, four hymns, a long pastoral prayer and a cerebral three point sermon, there are churches that provide this. For others there are 6 choirs’, a time of fellowship, an inspirational video and a timely and relevant sermon. There are certainly lots of churches in-between. Each of these churches can honor God. One is not better than the other simply because of their method.

Rob

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Rick Warren, in the course of his Purpose-Driven Life video presentation, makes some very questionable assertions. I believe his most egregious error is a statement that is a direct challenge to the biblical concept of God. Warren says that if Christians fail in their duty to evangelize, “there will be people who are not in heaven who should have been there.” To claim that some people will end up in eternal torment because of the failure of other people is shocking! To imply that the Lord will not be able to save some people who “should have been” in heaven is blasphemous. I do not know if Mr. Warren realizes the implications of this statement, but a few moments of serious reflection will convince any thinking Christian that this presents a seriously distorted view of God. This view cannot be squared with Scripture and is as dangerous as it is erroneous.

Questions:

1. Does Rick Warren actually say this in his book and what page is this quote found?

2. Isn't this really the major justification for any Church Growth program?

3. If Warren did indeed say this, is there any Biblical justification for this idea?

4. Did Rick Warren really understand the full implications of his statement if there is no Biblical justification? Is it really reasonable to believe that a pastor who graduated from Southwestern with an MDiv, and I believe was mentored by W.A. Criswell himself, did not understand all of the implications here?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Inherently pragmatic in its approach, CGM follows the innovative techniques of its founding father, Donald McGavran (of Fuller Seminary), who in turn borrowed the techniques of Charles Finney.4

Interesting. I remember reading a piece by McGavran in Mission class in seminary called the Bridges of God, and remember it was related a lot to Donald's missionary work with Islamic people. He focused on building the "bridges of God". The idea was to meet people where they were, build relationship with them, and present the Gospel to them in a way that was relevant to their culture. For example, with the Muslim people, the first thing he did was to learn the five tenants of Islam, and find similarities between Christianity and Islam to help build common ground. I remember thinking it was really brilliant at the time, but looking back on it, in hindsight, perhaps it does warrant some further review in light of what Scripture teaches.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Warren, of course, interprets God's blessing in terms of numbers, a conclusion that is perfectly consistent with CGM.

It has been a while since I read Rick's PDC, but I think this is actually wrong. As a matter of fact, I think he talks about the ideas that:

1. Church Growth should be in terms of Spiritual Growth first. I think the words he uses is that a Church that is spiritually alive will naturally grow. It will not become stagnant spiritually or numerically (this of course is paraphrased).

2. I think he also talks about an idea that was put forward by I think it was Bailey Smith in his book "Balanced Church Growth" and that is training lay people to go out and do ministry. IOW, high numbers do not always equate with Church Growth if the numbers of people do not grow spiritually enough that you are sending them out elsewhere to start new missions and Churches.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Correction: It was not Bailey Smith, but rather, Ebbie Smith.

Sorry.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[gb93433]

Every few years there is a new book or new diet of religion. But the Bible has consistently remained throughout. I believe if we will study scripture we will often get a very different picture than any book promotes. At times I have spent a great deal of time looking to books for help but when I get back to scripture he always blesses that.

If we spent as much time studying scrupiture we would be farther ahead. The writing of many books is endless. One hundrred years from now Rick Warren will probably not even be named. But God will still be alive and the Bible will be. Our business is eternal not about building larger barns. Let God build the house while we labor.

Since I have graduated from seminary I have watched as I have seen a number of my friends get caught up in these new things and have failed to continue studying Greek, etc. What good is seminary education if we will not continue to study?

 

[Molly]

Great points gb!

Do we really need bestselling books when God has given us His Word?

I think some books can be helful,but we do have to be cautious what we fall for!

Molly

 

[All about Grace]

I have read all of these articles and find them so inconsistent and distortions of reality. I don't have time to point out all the flaws involved, but here is one I find amusing in light of the author's line of reasoning.

The authors make the attempt to show how God is sovereign and is in absolute control of salvation and does what He alone wants to do, and then when responding to a question regarding the 40 Days of Purpose, he says: "I wouldn't think God would bless this 40-day event."

So for pages he rants and raves about how God alone is sovereign, and then takes it all away by speculating what God will and will not bless. Consistency is such a difficult find when you are criticizing other evangelicals.

BTW, I have many folks in our church that have been transformed spiritually thru God's blessing on the 40 Days event. They would tend to disagree with the author's assessment of whether God will or will not bless the PDL.