Purpose of the Great Tribulation

[J.D.]

First, lets be sure not to confuse amil with preterism. Reformed seems to be arguing in preterist terms.

Secondly, I agree with you about historical premil - its quite acceptable. However, I am having difficulty accepting that about postmil (maybe because I can only find preterist postmils to discuss things with?) and find it impossible to do so with dispy eschatology (even if I can find other aspects of their position acceptable). Can you maybe comment on what you find to be acceptable forms of dispy and postmil eschatology?

About Sproul though, hasn't he strongly gone partial preterist/postmil in recent years? Or am I thinking of someone else?



Yep - literalism always ends up having to rely on non-literal explanations to remain consistent in interpretation. That being, amil becomes much more acceptable. Since it seems to me to answer several questions much better than the premil system does, I lean strongly towards it. I think this is esp. true if one finds themself in the New Covenant Theology camp. The 'now, but not yet' paradigm of amil thought seems to find strong resonance in the NCT paradigm.

DW, I don't have time right now to get into details. But I do want to go ahead and explain what I mean by "responsbile, rational dispy and postmil". I don't speak here of the doctrines but of the people. For example, Jack Van Impy - headline phrophecy - and other dispys, that are so Israel-focused that they almost have the church answering to Moses. I consider them irresponsible and irrational. And I find some postmils scary. Rushdoony, North comes to mind. Seems they're looking for a grand church-state reunion, before Christ's return.

BTW I know that extreme positions are not limited to dispy and postmil.

More later. Bye.

 

[Grasshopper]

The Tribulation (Matt 24) was the fulfillment of the Covenantal Curses for the unbelieving House of Judea.

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[Mel Miller]

Purpose of Great Tribulation

npetreley writes:

"First, the GT is focused primarily on Israel. It is the time of Jacob's trouble, not the time of Gentile's trouble. So a lot of reasoning people use when discussing it is off-base because they are looking at it primarily from a Gentile church perspective.

"I expect someone to say (if this isn't what you're already asking), `If it is primarily focused on Israel, then why does the church need to be here?'"
____________________________________________________________

Please note, when Michael casts Satan out of heaven at midtrib,
Satan's "great anger (thumos) will first be directed at Israel. Rev.12:12.
When those who escape to the desert cannot be persecuted by Satan for
3 and a half years, he will be filled with great wrath (orgizo). Rev.12:17.

There is an escalation of energy in Satan's attack upon those who "have
the word of God and keep the testimony of Jesus. But they love not
their life unto death and overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb" during this time of God's Kingdom Power and Christ's authority"! Rev.12:10-11.

Now, I think Webdog has a good insight in showing the relation of the
G.T. to Jews as found in Rom.11. They must not only be prepared to
receive Messiah at His return; but they will also be "provoked by Gentile
Christians to jealousy"! Rom.11:11.

IMO, this is why Christians must remain through the G.T. "Some will not
taste death until after they see" the Two Prophets demonstrating God's
Kingdom Power on behalf of both Jews and Gentiles for 1260 days!!
Mark 9:1; Rev.12:10.

But the willingness of Christians to have their heads decapitated will challenge the Jews as to the depth of their faith in Christ...and this will make them "jealous"!!! Rev.20:4 ("Beheaded for Christ").

Romans 9-11 requires the willingness of Gentile Christians to "suffer for Christ" until our chosen "full number" have been saved! At the same time,
our demonstrated refusal to worship the Beast will challenge the Jews
to consider the faith for which they were chosen as primary recipients!! Gentile Christians not only must be here to foster Israel's jealousy; but they will gain the highest possible reward offered to the Church for faithfulness after all of them come out of the G.T.!!! Rev.7:14-17.

Martyrs will "serve God as Pillars in heaven's temple and be shepherded by the Lamb to fountains of living water" while "overcomers to the End will rule over the nations on the earth" for 1000 years...from the time Christ comes as King and ALL Israel is saved! Rev.3:12; Rev.7:14-17; Rev.15:2-4; Rev.20:4-6; Rev.2:25-26; Rom.11:25.

Mel

 

[skypair]

Well...

...on thing for sure...

Everyone around here is thinking like man and not like God. It was God told Daniel "70 weeks are determined on your people and on the holy city, to finish the transgression [of Israel]..." Who do YOU think God intends to deal with -- Israel or the church in that yet to come 70th week??

I'd say that if God meant He was going to deal with "spiritual" Israel, we all ought to head for Jerusalem. Their'll be protection there for 3 1/2 years anyway, right? Then maybe flee to Petra with the woman (Rev 12)?

Otherwise, I don't see any but 144,000 sealed. And I see ALL but them judged by the 5th trumpet (Rev 9:4) with the 5 month "wich I were dead" sting of the demons of the abyss. Is Christ really going to put this on His betrothed? Doesn't this directly countermand Jesus promise that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it?" And what about "keeping us through the testing? (Rev 3:10) Doesn't sound like it to me.

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

...one thing for sure...

Everyone around here is thinking like man and not like God. It was God told Daniel "70 weeks are determined on your people and on the holy city, to finish the transgression [of Israel]..." Who do YOU think God intends to deal with -- Israel or the church in that yet to come 70th week??

I'd say that if God meant He was going to deal with "spiritual" Israel, we all ought to head for Jerusalem. Their'll be protection there for 3 1/2 years anyway, right? Then maybe flee to Petra with the woman (Rev 12)?

Otherwise, I don't see any but 144,000 sealed. And I see ALL but them judged by the 5th trumpet (Rev 9:4) with the 5 month "wich I were dead" sting of the demons of the abyss. Is Christ really going to put this on His betrothed? Doesn't this directly countermand Jesus promise that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it?" And what about "keeping us through the testing? (Rev 3:10) Doesn't sound like it to me.

skypair

____________________________________________________________

skypair,

On two counts it is obvious you have not considered my response to the question about the Big Purpose for the G.T.! And, as for the Hour of Trial,
you need to realize that Jesus limited that HOUR to what happens on the
12-Hour Day He appears in glory!! Not only Believers, but all Israel will be
"kept from that Hour"...either by Jesus "gathering the Elect from earth to
meet Him in the Sky" (Holman Bible) or by "keeping ALL Israel alive" during
that Hour!!! Rev.3:10-11; Luke 17:30-33; Luke 21:34-36.

Here is what you have failed to consider in Post #23:

"Now, I think Webdog has a good insight in showing the relation of the
G.T. to Jews as found in Rom.11. They must not only be prepared to
receive Messiah at His return; but they will also be `provoked by Gentile
Christians to jealousy'! Rom.11:11.

"IMO, this is why Christians must remain through the G.T. `Some will not
taste death, by any mens, until after they see' the Two Prophets demonstrating God's Kingdom Power on behalf of both Jews and Gentiles for 1260 days!! Mark 9:1; Rev.12:10.

"But the willingness of Christians to have their heads decapitated will challenge the Jews as to the depth of their faith in Christ...and this will make them `jealous'!!! Rev.20:4 (`Beheaded for Christ').

"Romans 9-11 requires the willingness of Gentile Christians to `suffer for Christ' until our chosen `full number' have been saved! At the same time,
our demonstrated refusal to worship the Beast will challenge the Jews
to consider the faith for which they were chosen as primary recipients!! Gentile Christians not only must be here to foster Israel's jealousy; but they will gain the highest possible reward offered to the Church for faithfulness after all of them come out of the G.T.!!! Rev.7:14-17.

"Martyrs will `serve God as Pillars in heaven's temple and be shepherded by the Lamb to fountains of living water' while `overcomers to the End will rule over the nations on the earth' for 1000 years...from the time Christ comes as King and ALL Israel is saved! Rev.3:12; Rev.7:14-17; Rev.15:2-4; Rev.20:4-6; Rev.2:25-26; Rom.11:25.

Mel

 

[skypair]

mel

mel...

The Jews will be jealous of our MARTYRDOM?? Get real! They'll be jealous that we are RAPTURED pretrib!! How could WE be "worthy" to escape and they NOT!? How could a "people" that are no "people" gain salvation the Israel NOT?? Beheadiings make them jealous?? I don't think so. Rom 11:11 -- SALVATION has come unto the Gentiles, NOT beheading!! :laugh:

"Martyrs will `serve God as Pillars in heaven's temple...

WHOA, mel! This is WAY out of context!! The "pillars" are Philly who are raptured PRETRIB!!

And it is specifically because Thyatira is not raptured pretrib that they must "overcome" in order to "rule over the nations" in the MK! This authority is given to any that convert during the tribulation!!

Great citations, mel. Just that you don't know what they mean. (I read all the posts, BTW.)

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

mel...

The Jews will be jealous of our MARTYRDOM?? Get real! They'll be jealous that we are RAPTURED pretrib!! How could WE be "worthy" to escape and they NOT!? How could a "people" that are no "people" gain salvation the Israel NOT?? Beheadiings make them jealous?? I don't think so. Rom 11:11 -- SALVATION has come unto the Gentiles, NOT beheading!! :laugh:

WHOA, mel! This is WAY out of context!! The "pillars" are Philly who are raptured PRETRIB!!

And it is specifically because Thyatira is not raptured pretrib that they must "overcome" in order to "rule over the nations" in the MK! This authority is given to any that convert during the tribulation!!

Great citations, mel. Just that you don't know what they mean. (I read all the posts, BTW.)

skypair

_____________________________________________________________

Skypair:
You have overlooked (or ignored) the fact that those "coming out of the great tribulation" win the reward promised to "overcomers in the Church"!
Rev.3:12; Rev.7:14-17.

Those "beheaded for Christ will serve God (as Pillars) in the Temple of
heaven for 1000 years while those who "overcome (survive) to the End
will reign with Christ on the earth"!! Rev.3:12; Rev.7:14-17; Rev.20:4-6;
Rev.2:25-26 (when Christ comes as King).

Today, Israelis are being killed by those who have perverted the promise
of reward to the Martyrs by becoming Martyrs for Alah.

Two Thirds of these Israelis will be killed during the Great Tribulation!

Before you pooh pooh the truth about the most prestigious reward won by
Church Martyrs, you need to consider what the effect will be on the third
of Israel who survive to the End when they see Believers willing to die for
the FAITH and Kingdom of God which was theirs before it was "taken away and given to another people"!! I didn't say you do not read all the posts;
but that you continuously fail to give Scripture!!!

"Those coming out of great tribulation will serve God (as Pillars) day and
night in HisTemple (for 1000 years) and the Lamb will feed them and lead
them unto living fountains of waters"! Please don't try to claim this refers to the Temple after it comes down upon/over the Earth!! For there will be
no DAY OR NIGHT and no TEMPLE after the Millennial Reign of Christ in
Heaven and on Earth...for the Saints on earth will "reign with Christ" at the same time the Martyrs "reign with Christ" in heaven and the Apostles "sit on thrones" on the earth!!! Rev.21:22,25; Rev.20:4-5; Rev.2:25-26.

Mel