Question about being drunk in the spirit & baptism of the holy spirit

[xdisciplex]

Usually conservative christians say that there is no difference between getting the holy spirit and being baptized in the holy spirit. They say they are the same thing.
But why did Jesus breathe upon his disciples for them to receive the holy spirit and then told them to wait until they get the power? This shows that these are 2 different events because if it's the same then where is the power and the boldness? Are you as bold as the disciples? I am not. If I have the same power and boldness which Peter and the others had then I ask myself why I don't see anything of it. I think when you really get this power then you also know it.

And what I also don't understand is this "drunk in the spirit" stuff. Usually I am sceptical of people claiming to be drunk in the spirit. I have heard weird stories of christians which said the holy spirit came over them and then they became so drunk that they couldn't even drive anymore, or others start to laugh uncontrollably. These things sound strange but in the bible there are verses which talk about it.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Why the comparison between being drunk and filled with the holy spirit?

Act 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

This means that they must have acted very weird when the others thought they were drunk.
Does this mean that this stuff is from God? When christians say they are drunk in the spirit and when they act weird and lose control?

Somehow everybody says something different and it's impossible to really figure out what the truth is. This is exactly what's so demotivating about the bible. You can justify everything. You can justify being drunk in the spirit and acting weird and refer to these verses and others say that God would never do such a thing and cause a christian to lose control.

 

[dispen4ever]

xdx, I've heard you complain that everyone gives you the same answers. I've also heard you complain that everyone has different explanations of scripture. Now you are saying that because of this, it is impossible to know the truth. That is where you are missing it. I'm going to give you an answer that lots of others have given you: the Truth is in God's word. You study the scriptures to set yourself free from doubt, confusion, and fear. You appropriate all of God's promises for the born-again Child of God.

One receives the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. I've seen persons who receive Christ as Savior and Lord rejoice, lift their hands in praise, laugh, cry (but neither uncontrollably). It is just the pure love of God spilling over into their new beginning. No one gets bow-legged drunk through a so-called baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes subsequent to the moment of salvation. The two occur simultaneously. They are not two different events.

When Jesus spoke these things, he spoke to Jews. He was present there with them, functioning as Savior, not as Holy Spirit. The Gospel had not yet been proclaimed among we Gentiles. They received the power and the boldness directly from Christ to go out among the Jews and, in power and boldness, proclaim that Messiah had come. Those who appeared to be intoxicated back then were FILLED with great joy, with happiness, with wonder and awe! The promise of the Kingdom was now available to the Jews. We know "the rest of the story." The Jews rejected him.

Thereafter Paul, in Acts 9 and following, brought the Good News to we Gentiles. Paul did not breathe on people. He proclaimed that Jesus was inviting even Gentiles to abandon their worldly ways in order to live forever. The entire plan of salvation for Gentiles, and for Jewish converts at the time of Paul and thereafter, was laid out in the Pauline letters, apart from the witness of Jesus directly to the 12 and to those who heard him speak, as found in those scriptures (apart from what Paul wrote).

When you mix the message of Jesus to the Jews with the message of Paul to the Gentiles, you invite confusion. That is not to say that the message of Jesus to the Jews is invalidated. Those are precious, precious words that he spoke. We gain great insight by reading them, by thanking God for his presence among us, for being the Messiah, for the Kingdom promise. It simply means that we cannot mix the Kingdom promised to the Jews with salvation by grace thru faith that Paul preached. The Kingdom promised to the Jews has been postponed, but it is coming! After the rapture, after the Great Tribulation, after the 2nd Coming of Jesus, God will restore the Kingdom promised to the Jews. They will weep before the one that was slain, the one they killed. But HE will not forget his promise to them.
:godisgood:

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

xdx, I've heard you complain that everyone gives you the same answers. I've also heard you complain that everyone has different explanations of scripture.

Yes, we've given the same scriptures -- but your words are helpful to us who have answered XD before. The explanations cannot be given too often, for truth is always the right answer.

Thank you.

 

[xdisciplex]

But if the baptizm of the spirit happens when you get saved then why am I not like the apostles? I am not bold but they were bold. I don't feel anything. If I don't see it and don't feel it and also don't notice it then how shall I know that I have it?

 

[El_Guero]

:thumbs:

:jesus: is the only way - discipleship is only the instructional method that HE commanded . . .

xdx, I've heard you complain that everyone gives you the same answers. I've also heard you complain that everyone has different explanations of scripture. Now you are saying that because of this, it is impossible to know the truth. That is where you are missing it. I'm going to give you an answer that lots of others have given you: the Truth is in God's word. You study the scriptures to set yourself free from doubt, confusion, and fear. You appropriate all of God's promises for the born-again Child of God.

One receives the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. I've seen persons who receive Christ as Savior and Lord rejoice, lift their hands in praise, laugh, cry (but neither uncontrollably). It is just the pure love of God spilling over into their new beginning. No one gets bow-legged drunk through a so-called baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes subsequent to the moment of salvation. The two occur simultaneously. They are not two different events.

When Jesus spoke these things, he spoke to Jews. He was present there with them, functioning as Savior, not as Holy Spirit. The Gospel had not yet been proclaimed among we Gentiles. They received the power and the boldness directly from Christ to go out among the Jews and, in power and boldness, proclaim that Messiah had come. Those who appeared to be intoxicated back then were FILLED with great joy, with happiness, with wonder and awe! The promise of the Kingdom was now available to the Jews. We know "the rest of the story." The Jews rejected him.

Thereafter Paul, in Acts 9 and following, brought the Good News to we Gentiles. Paul did not breathe on people. He proclaimed that Jesus was inviting even Gentiles to abandon their worldly ways in order to live forever. The entire plan of salvation for Gentiles, and for Jewish converts at the time of Paul and thereafter, was laid out in the Pauline letters, apart from the witness of Jesus directly to the 12 and to those who heard him speak, as found in those scriptures (apart from what Paul wrote).

When you mix the message of Jesus to the Jews with the message of Paul to the Gentiles, you invite confusion. That is not to say that the message of Jesus to the Jews is invalidated. Those are precious, precious words that he spoke. We gain great insight by reading them, by thanking God for his presence among us, for being the Messiah, for the Kingdom promise. It simply means that we cannot mix the Kingdom promised to the Jews with salvation by grace thru faith that Paul preached. The Kingdom promised to the Jews has been postponed, but it is coming! After the rapture, after the Great Tribulation, after the 2nd Coming of Jesus, God will restore the Kingdom promised to the Jews. They will weep before the one that was slain, the one they killed. But HE will not forget his promise to them.
:godisgood:

 

[El_Guero]

Great post . . .

:thumbs:

Yes, we've given the same scriptures -- but your words are helpful to us who have answered XD before. The explanations cannot be given too often, for truth is always the right answer.

Thank you.

 

[xdisciplex]

I think we have to be careful when we talk about truth.
Do not all different christian denominations use the bible and do they not all think that they have the ultimate truth? Of course they do. Or have you ever seen a pastor who said that his theology is most likely false? I haven't.
And this is exactly where the problem is. It's about understanding the bible correctly. If the truth is in the bible but I don't understand it then it doesn't really help me, you know?
What is the truth about speaking in tongues, once saved always saved, the truth about healing and the truth about thousands of other theological questions which christians have been arguing about ever since? I don't know.
I only know that I have no clue. I at least admit it. I could also simply pick the opinion which I like best and then claim to understand it all but this would be senseless. The more I know the less I know. I think I'm unable to figure out biblical truths. I could form an own opinion but I could never say that my opinion is the truth because this would mean that I understand it all and I don't.

 

[El_Guero]

To be a disciple means to follow Jesus . . . if you cannot make up your mind . . . how do you follow Jesus?

You go around and around with 'your confusion'.

Yet, your moniker uses the term disciple . . . how are you being a disciple of Christ? At present you keep referring to your confusion, not to Christ.

Do I know the Truth? Yes, He is Jesus Christ. And until He allows me to see otherwise, I will see dimly, but then I will see Him face to face. What a glorious time that will be!

In the twinkling of an eye, I and you will discover that in all of your rantings and ravings, you were 'right' on occasion . . . I pray that you have enough occasional 'rights', for the Lord to say that He knew you.

1. As a Christian (disciple of Christ) - He must be Lord of your life. Rom 3:23
2. As a disciple of Christ - the Bible - NOT the TV preachers you refer to - IS THE AUTHORITY. 2 Tim 3: 16
3. We are commanded to make disciples (By Jesus Christ). Matt 28:19
4. The Apostle John tells us that if we do not keep His commandments - we do not love HIM. 1 John 5:3

You need discipleship.

And yes, you need and deserve acceptance and love, and those emotions should be part of your discipleship.

I think we have to be careful when we talk about truth.
Do not all different christian denominations use the bible and do they not all think that they have the ultimate truth? Of course they do. Or have you ever seen a pastor who said that his theology is most likely false? I haven't.
And this is exactly where the problem is. It's about understanding the bible correctly. If the truth is in the bible but I don't understand it then it doesn't really help me, you know?
What is the truth about speaking in tongues, once saved always saved, the truth about healing and the truth about thousands of other theological questions which christians have been arguing about ever since? I don't know.
I only know that I have no clue. I at least admit it. I could also simply pick the opinion which I like best and then claim to understand it all but this would be senseless. The more I know the less I know. I think I'm unable to figure out biblical truths. I could form an own opinion but I could never say that my opinion is the truth because this would mean that I understand it all and I don't.

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

I think we have to be careful when we talk about truth.
Do not all different christian denominations use the bible and do they not all think that they have the ultimate truth? Of course they do. Or have you ever seen a pastor who said that his theology is most likely false? I haven't.
And this is exactly where the problem is. It's about understanding the bible correctly. If the truth is in the bible but I don't understand it then it doesn't really help me, you know?

Why is it, then, that so many people are not only content, but joyously happy in their church? Because they have found God.

There were differences within the early church. Paul addressed it, explained it, and gave the solution:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 Corinthians 1:11-13 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. (12) Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. (13) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 Corinthians 3:5-7 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? (6) I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. (7) So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. [/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Those scriptures are very plain. The preachers in question were not calling people to themselves but to salvation in Jesus Christ. The people in question were responding to personalities instead. A spiritual equivalent of "My dad's bigger than your dad!"[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Paul's first letter to the Corinthians speaks to the divisions coming into the church. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Maintaining focus on the truths of the Bible, no matter which man reads the words aloud or expounds upon them, keeps us focused on the "God that giveth the increase."[/FONT]

Until that is your truth, you'll continue to question and search.

 

[hillclimber1]

Usually conservative christians say that there is no difference between getting the holy spirit and being baptized in the holy spirit. They say they are the same thing.
But why did Jesus breathe upon his disciples for them to receive the holy spirit and then told them to wait until they get the power? This shows that these are 2 different events because if it's the same then where is the power and the boldness? Are you as bold as the disciples? I am not. If I have the same power and boldness which Peter and the others had then I ask myself why I don't see anything of it. I think when you really get this power then you also know it.

And what I also don't understand is this "drunk in the spirit" stuff. Usually I am sceptical of people claiming to be drunk in the spirit. I have heard weird stories of christians which said the holy spirit came over them and then they became so drunk that they couldn't even drive anymore, or others start to laugh uncontrollably. These things sound strange but in the bible there are verses which talk about it.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Why the comparison between being drunk and filled with the holy spirit?

Act 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

This means that they must have acted very weird when the others thought they were drunk.
Does this mean that this stuff is from God? When christians say they are drunk in the spirit and when they act weird and lose control?

Somehow everybody says something different and it's impossible to really figure out what the truth is. This is exactly what's so demotivating about the bible. You can justify everything. You can justify being drunk in the spirit and acting weird and refer to these verses and others say that God would never do such a thing and cause a christian to lose control.

I haven't seen the truth laid out any better than this.
xdisciplex, perhaps you simply need to dwell upon the faith that saved you. Just think on the unmerited salvation you possess by Christ's work on the cross and leave all this other stuff alone. Let your heart be open to dialog with the Lord as you read scripture. The longer you develope a repoire with Him, the readier you'll be to understand these other things. Perhaps prayerfully read through Pauls epistles. You seem to be spinning your wheels the way you're going now.

 

[xdisciplex]

I don't know. Maybe I simply have wrong expectations. Maybe I think that when I read the bible something supernatural has to happen. Maybe I simply don't know how to read the bible. Do you read the bible like a normal book? Do you just read and read and the stop after a while to see what you remember?
I don't like reading and I only read very little and only things which really interest me and which are easy to understand. I like texts which I can quickly read and where I can still memorize important facts. But the bible is so different, you cannot simply read over it. It's so condensed.
Christians say the bible is alive and it speaks to them but it doesn't speak to me. Reading the bible feels like reading any other text, there is no difference. And this drags me down. When I read in the bible and realize that it doesn't touch me and that I also don't understand it then this is totally frustrating because it makes me feel like I'm not normal. If the bible is alive for other christians and not for me then what does this tell me? What if I simply cannot use the bible, what if it doesn't give me comfort? What do I do then? These are scary thoughts and because of this I also don't read much in the bible because it frustrates me. I wonder how other christians read the bible and what they experience when they read it. Maybe others experience the same and I only think that I'm an exception. But even if others also don't understand the bible then it also doesn't really help me.
There is simply no depth. Today I read 2.Cor chapter 1 and 5 and I simply read it and that's it. Nothing jumped out at me, there also was nothing which spoke to me. What do I do when I read and nothing speaks to me and there also isn't much to think about? Shall I simply accept it and move on?
Shall I think about every single verse and wait for a revelation? But what if the verses simply offer nothing to think about? Or what if I don't even understand what a verse means or what Paul wants to say? What do I do then? There were a few verses where I had no clue what Paul wants to say and this is simply frustrating. Why do I not understand what he means? It's simply not clear. It's not in the text. I could read the verses again and again and I wouldn't get an answer because the answer isn't there. I could only assume what he means. Great....

For example this verse:

2Co 1:23 Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.

What does this mean? Does Paul imply that if he had come to Corinth he would have punished them or what?

 

[xdisciplex]

-----------

 

[dispen4ever]

No, Paul does not imply that. Go here:

http://tinyurl.com/yxtsbj

and choose any number of translations. I think the amplified says it best. He didn't want to hurt their feelings, make them feel back about themselves due to much preaching.

:godisgood:

 

[El_Guero]

In the amount of time that you have spent on this board, you could easily have read the Bible.

I think you are correct. You have wrong expectations. You expect God to speak to you each time you read a verse.

You do not want to follow God's commandment to be discipled . . . but, you get frustrated when he does not talk to you.

Maybe instead of thinking that God talks to the benny hinns of the world and that you need to be like binny . . . maybe you should just "serve the Lord with gladness."

If you really want to change . . . and change for real . . . and change for good . . . it takes about 2 - 3 months of practice and what you are wanting to become is made solid through practice.

For the last year, you have practiced chasing crazy TV preachers. Why can't you practice being a disciple of Christ?

Start by reading (get the bible on tape or cd if you really do not like to read) First John . . . all of it 3 times (once in your normal bible, and once in another version (choose from New King James, NIV, or NAS) ) in one sitting . . . This will be one of your longer readings.

The next day read: Then read Micah . . .
The next day read: Malachi . . .
The next day read: Gen.17:19 . . . Genesis 12:3, 18:18 . . . Acts 3:25 . . . Mt.1:2 . . . Lk.3:34 . . . Isaiah 9:7 . . . Luke 1:32-33 . . .
The next start reading Luke.

After you have read a couple of chapters of Luke, then post a new thread.

We will be praying for you.

I don't know. Maybe I simply have wrong expectations. Maybe I think that when I read the bible something supernatural has to happen. Maybe I simply don't know how to read the bible. Do you read the bible like a normal book? Do you just read and read and the stop after a while to see what you remember?
I don't like reading and I only read very little and only things which really interest me and which are easy to understand. I like texts which I can quickly read and where I can still memorize important facts. But the bible is so different, you cannot simply read over it. It's so condensed.
Christians say the bible is alive and it speaks to them but it doesn't speak to me. Reading the bible feels like reading any other text, there is no difference. And this drags me down. When I read in the bible and realize that it doesn't touch me and that I also don't understand it then this is totally frustrating because it makes me feel like I'm not normal. If the bible is alive for other christians and not for me then what does this tell me? What if I simply cannot use the bible, what if it doesn't give me comfort? What do I do then? These are scary thoughts and because of this I also don't read much in the bible because it frustrates me. I wonder how other christians read the bible and what they experience when they read it. Maybe others experience the same and I only think that I'm an exception. But even if others also don't understand the bible then it also doesn't really help me.
There is simply no depth. Today I read 2.Cor chapter 1 and 5 and I simply read it and that's it. Nothing jumped out at me, there also was nothing which spoke to me. What do I do when I read and nothing speaks to me and there also isn't much to think about? Shall I simply accept it and move on?
Shall I think about every single verse and wait for a revelation? But what if the verses simply offer nothing to think about? Or what if I don't even understand what a verse means or what Paul wants to say? What do I do then? There were a few verses where I had no clue what Paul wants to say and this is simply frustrating. Why do I not understand what he means? It's simply not clear. It's not in the text. I could read the verses again and again and I wouldn't get an answer because the answer isn't there. I could only assume what he means. Great....

For example this verse:

2Co 1:23 Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.

What does this mean? Does Paul imply that if he had come to Corinth he would have punished them or what?

 

[hillclimber1]

xdx, I've heard you complain that everyone gives you the same answers. I've also heard you complain that everyone has different explanations of scripture. Now you are saying that because of this, it is impossible to know the truth. That is where you are missing it. I'm going to give you an answer that lots of others have given you: the Truth is in God's word. You study the scriptures to set yourself free from doubt, confusion, and fear. You appropriate all of God's promises for the born-again Child of God.

One receives the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. I've seen persons who receive Christ as Savior and Lord rejoice, lift their hands in praise, laugh, cry (but neither uncontrollably). It is just the pure love of God spilling over into their new beginning. No one gets bow-legged drunk through a so-called baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes subsequent to the moment of salvation. The two occur simultaneously. They are not two different events.

When Jesus spoke these things, he spoke to Jews. He was present there with them, functioning as Savior, not as Holy Spirit. The Gospel had not yet been proclaimed among we Gentiles. They received the power and the boldness directly from Christ to go out among the Jews and, in power and boldness, proclaim that Messiah had come. Those who appeared to be intoxicated back then were FILLED with great joy, with happiness, with wonder and awe! The promise of the Kingdom was now available to the Jews. We know "the rest of the story." The Jews rejected him.

Thereafter Paul, in Acts 9 and following, brought the Good News to we Gentiles. Paul did not breathe on people. He proclaimed that Jesus was inviting even Gentiles to abandon their worldly ways in order to live forever. The entire plan of salvation for Gentiles, and for Jewish converts at the time of Paul and thereafter, was laid out in the Pauline letters, apart from the witness of Jesus directly to the 12 and to those who heard him speak, as found in those scriptures (apart from what Paul wrote).

When you mix the message of Jesus to the Jews with the message of Paul to the Gentiles, you invite confusion. That is not to say that the message of Jesus to the Jews is invalidated. Those are precious, precious words that he spoke. We gain great insight by reading them, by thanking God for his presence among us, for being the Messiah, for the Kingdom promise. It simply means that we cannot mix the Kingdom promised to the Jews with salvation by grace thru faith that Paul preached. The Kingdom promised to the Jews has been postponed, but it is coming! After the rapture, after the Great Tribulation, after the 2nd Coming of Jesus, God will restore the Kingdom promised to the Jews. They will weep before the one that was slain, the one they killed. But HE will not forget his promise to them.
:godisgood:

My last post was in error. This is the post I meant when I said I haden't seen it stated better. My mistake

 

[xdisciplex]

Where is my "discipler"?
How do you imagine this, El?
Do you really believe there is a wise,old,retired christian who has nothing better to do than trying to teach me something? First of all I doubt that such a person exists and even if it did then this person could also be wrong and I would learn all the wrong things from him and then I would be totally messed up. Then my whole foundation would be wrong, there would be no way to correct it anymore.
And let's say there is a wise,old,retired christian who has the correct theology who also wants to disciple me how is this supposed to work? Shall I spend hours at his house every day reading the bible with him?
Do you not see how unrealistic this is? This is like waiting for a professional soccer player to come along to teach me how to play soccer. Be a bit more realistic, El. I could as well hope that Bill Gates knocks on my door and shows me how to become a millionaire...

 

[dispen4ever]

Paul was old, wrote the salvation scriptures to the Gentiles and to Jewish converts. He had the correct theology. He was wise, not in his own right, but because of the love of God that manifested itself in him. There are those today who interpret scripture spiritually who have the correct theology, as well. There are those who "get it right" most of the time, erring only in minor points of little consequence.

You are looking for answers on the Baptist Board among hundreds of persons who profess to be wise. You have looked for answers on TV, on video, DVDs and CDs, in books ~~ a huge collection of "those who profess to be wise" and might not be. That has added to your confusion.

Why not trust one who professes to interpret scripture according to scripture?

Think about it. No - pray about it. Humble yourself before HIM and listen.

:thumbs:

 

[xdisciplex]

Listen? To God? And then? Will he speak to me with a real voice?
Listen, if I could hear God do you think I will spend only 1 minute here asking questions? :laugh:

 

[dispen4ever]

The opposite of remaining quiet before God is talking too much. Sometimes our talking gets in the way of our hearing. I doubt that God will speak to you in an audible voice. He won't appear in your room. If you are humbled before him, spiritually, open and receptive, you'll simply understand what God has to say. He'll write in on your heart, as they say. That's figurative for him speaking Spirit to spirit.

Lot of times I pray in that manner, don't hear anything (am not impressed as to what to do), but then several days later the answer to the prayer is right there in front of me. Sometimes it happens and I don't even realize that the prayer has been answered. Later, it dawns on me that it was an answer. That's when you get alone with God and just praise him. I don't mean jump up and down and shout and all that. Just quietly, peacefully, praise him.

Other times the answer is right there, obvious, and I find myself grinning, walking or driving down the street just saying "Thank You, Lord!" I may say it a dozen times. Even the praise comes from him. :1_grouphug:

 

[xdisciplex]

But if I don't talk then shall I simply sit there and do nothing?

And how do I know how God speaks? If God speaks through thoughts then I will never be able to distinguish between my own thoughts and his voice.