Question about love and free will

[Claudia_T]

Allan

I havent had a chance to look over all you posted, but I just wanted to tell you that Im a Seventh Day Adventist and it isnt that we dont believe there is a Hell, because we do.

Its just that we dont believe the fire burns forever and ever throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity.

Thats why in that famous Bible verse Jesus said:

16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Notice Jesus didnt say "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not burn forever and ever throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity, but have everlasting life" ?

He said the wicked PERISH.

Mt:10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Malachi4:3: And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

But anyway please dont think that we dont believe in Hell...
we think that people will burn for a time, some longer than others. but that the fire will go out... after a time

Lk:12:47: And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Lk:12:48: But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

see the thing is that if you will read the stuff I posted over there on the "What happens when you die" thread... well if you believe you have a NATURALLY immortal soul then you have to believe you will go to heaven when you die... and you would ALSO believe your soul would go on forever and ever in hell too...

and so these two doctrines go hand in hand. And we believe that the doctrine of the naturally immortal soul came from the Roman Catholic Church who got it from the Greeks, who were pagans. the thing is you lost immortality when Adam and Eve sinned and you arent give it again till the second coming of Christ. The wicked dont get the gift of eternal life... they dont get to live forever and ever... in hell or otherwise

Rom:6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

anyway I just wanted to explain those things because alot of people go off then saying that SDAs dont believe in Hell, or that the wicked get punished... but thats not true.

Maybe I should do a "Hell" thread so people can see the correlation.

 

[Amy.G]

You have to ignore a huge amount of scripture to believe that hell is not an eternal fire.

Matthew 18:8“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

Mark 9:44 where ‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.

Revelation 14:10-1110 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

I could name a lot more but you get the picture, I hope.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amy.G: //You have to ignore a huge amount
of scripture to believe that hell is not an eternal fire.//

You have to ignore several of the meanings of all those verses.
Hell's effects are PERMENANT i.e. eternal.

 

[Claudia_T]

AMY,

EXplain this to me:

2Thes:1:9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

Phil:3:19: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.

How can the wicked have EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION if they have EVERLASTING TORMENT?

dont you think maybe the tern "Everlasting" may be in question?


How can Sodom and Gammorah have had "eternal fire" if they turned to ashes and if thats the example of what happens to the wicked, then what?

Jude:1:7: Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6.


How can the lake of fire be the SECOND DEATH if it is ETERNAL LIFE in Hell?

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murders, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death." Rev. 21:8.


Claudia

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Amy.G: //You have to ignore a huge amount
of scripture to believe that hell is not an eternal fire.//

You have to ignore several of the meanings of all those verses.
Hell's effects are PERMENANT i.e. eternal.

GE:
For me hell is rather paradoxical, and I must say I prefer to keep it that way.
Because hell is meant to both erase and obliterate evil and evildoers, but also to PUNISH.
Now it's when we look at this punishment things tend to imply a neverending and infinite punishment, becuase the love sin against was infinitely great in every dimension. Look at Jesus? Who could think of hell limited? Look at nature and humans, and the SIN committed against both - hell can never be long enough, severe enough, hateful enough.
If we are ever going to find a good word or a euphemistic thought about hell, we shall have found an excuse for sin, or extenuation circumstance for the suffering of Christ.
That cannot be - in principle not.
So how will the hell perform both its duties? I don't know; I don't care - it's God's business.

 

[JamieinNH]

I found a discussion in another forum where an unbeliever asks a few interesting questions. Actually I have thought the very same things, too, and wasn't able to answer them very well. What do you say about these things?
Some things are really not easy to answer and sometimes I feel as if christians simply have their standard answers to such hard questions. I don't know where these answers come from, maybe an intelligent christian once came up with answers to tough questions and then these answers were taught to all christians and now they simply repeat them but how do we even know that they are correct? What if we simply repeat everything what we were told?
Anyway, here is the quote. The author basically argues that we have no free will because God is like: "Either you love me and obey me, or you're going to hell."

Over in that other forum, there are some Christians giving good advice for that atheist.

For one, I am not sure I would take the post of an atheist and his points to heart.

Also, in the thread, someone stated a very well worded response that he didn't reply to that, in my opinion, sums up free will.

The atheist states that he was raised as a Christian, in a Christian home, with a Christian family, and he went to church, believed in God and Jesus and yet, he still today has turned into an atheist.

The other person responsed and stated, isn't that Free will? Didn't he have free will to stop considering himself a Christian and call himself an atheist?

God loves us, and knows what is in our heart long before we do. and yet, he allows us to make the choice.


Another poster in that thread made a great point with a story.

"If I set a bowl of broccoli and bowl of ice cream in front of my son, I know he'll choose the ice cream. Does that mean he didn't have the choice of the broccoli just because I know he's going to choose the ice cream?"


I do hope you find the answers you're looking for, but I don't think you will find them surfing the net and on all the forums, including this one, without studying the Word for yourself, and getting into a church.

Take care,

Jamie

 

[tragic_pizza]

If she's still alive and doesn't accept the Lord before death, she will get a big shock some day when she discovers how real it is. If she's not alive, she already knows that.

Jon Marc, Shirley Guthrie wasn't a woman, but a scholar, and a very good one at that.

Dismissiveness is not a spiritual gift.

 

[Claudia_T]

GE:
For me hell is rather paradoxical, and I must say I prefer to keep it that way.
Because hell is meant to both erase and obliterate evil and evildoers, but also to PUNISH.
Now it's when we look at this punishment things tend to imply a neverending and infinite punishment, becuase the love sin against was infinitely great in every dimension. Look at Jesus? Who could think of hell limited? Look at nature and humans, and the SIN committed against both - hell can never be long enough, severe enough, hateful enough.
If we are ever going to find a good word or a euphemistic thought about hell, we shall have found an excuse for sin, or extenuation circumstance for the suffering of Christ.
That cannot be - in principle not.
So how will the hell perform both its duties? I don't know; I don't care - it's God's business.

yeah well you ought to care because the false lies about God burning people forever and ever in Hell has turned thousands of people away from God who just couldnt see the decency or the justice in that. And they shouldnt be able to because there is none.

 

[Amy.G]

yeah well you ought to care because the false lies about God burning people forever and ever in Hell has turned thousands of people away from God who just couldnt see the decency or the justice in that. And they shouldnt be able to because there is none.

The only thing that turns people away from God is their own sin. They refuse to accept that they are sinners in the sight of a holy God and repent. They exalt themselves above the only true God and their pride prevents them from submitting to God. Hell is real and eternal. The Bible makes this VERY clear. There IS eternal punishment and Jesus preached a LOT about it. To deny that is to deny the very word of God.

Romans 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

[Gup20]

God is truely infinite. We have trouble with many concepts because we don't understand this. But take this:

Lets say you sqash an ant. Is this horrible? Lets say you kill a mouse -- better or worse than killing an ant? Lets say you kill a dog -- better or worse than killing a mouse? Lets say you kill a horse -- better or worse than killing a dog? Lets say you kill a human being -- better or worse than killing a horse?

Perhaps this will help you to grasp at the concept of escalating the 'punishment' to fit the crime. Now lets say you sin against an infinately good, infinately just, and infinately supreme God -- what possible punishment can fit that crime except for an infinate one?

The Bible says:

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

In Adam, sin was born, and because of sin, death came.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

God gave us the ability to choose to die. What the person you are quoting doesn't realize is that death is a choice that all mankind have made. For God to send everyone to heaven is actually to REMOVE all choice. If there is life an death, but you can't choose death ... then there is no choice. However, if there is life and death and you can choose death -- even if life is the optimal choice -- then you have a choice.

In Christ, we have the choice of life.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

yeah well you ought to care because the false lies about God burning people forever and ever in Hell has turned thousands of people away from God who just couldnt see the decency or the justice in that. And they shouldnt be able to because there is none.

GE:

Hell is not 'my subject'. As I said - I leave it to God.

Just answer me this one question, Claudia, if our sin is against the infinite love of God, howcome the punishment for it should be less than infinite? If Christ paid with His - in fact His own - immortal life for the sins He forgives, how is it possible mortals and sinners could pay for their own sins with but a moment in time's suffering?