Claudia_T said:
Allan,
Here is just a little bit for you to read... first you have to realize that the Bible calls the Lake of Fire THE SECOND DEATH, so obviously there's a misunderstanding about eternal torment.
Agreed and that misunderstanding comes from and in what you have posted.
This view you set forth has NEVER been a consistant teaching of the Church from the first till now.
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murders, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death." Rev. 21:8.
What is said of this fire in another place?
"He will thoroughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matt. 3:12.
NOTE. - The fire is said to be everlasting because it is not "quenched." If fire is quenched after taking hold upon a house, the structure is saved; but if the fire is unquenchable, it does for the house just what the last quoted text says it will do with the chaff (the wicked) namely burn it up. Such a fire is called "everlasting," because it lasts as long as there is anything for it to prey upon, and because its results are everlasting.
First off, you have a WRONG understanding of 'unquenchable', period. Unquenchable in the Greek means:
1) unquenched, unquenchable
a) of eternal hell fire to punish the damned
unquenchable 2,
never shall quenched
As a former volenteer firefighter I can attest N
NE within that department ANYWHERE would say a fire that has burnt a structure to the ground would call it unquenable after the fact. But during the time the fire is raging and nothing can done at that point impedes its consumption THEN it is refered to as being unquechable! To burn something up also does not have the same conotation as being destroy or non-existent.
Everlasting means just what it says. Does everlasting life mean Life for a brief time and then you are snuffed out of existence?? No, It mean that whatever the subject is in conjuction with 'everlasting' holds that it is to be in a state of perminant existance.
Second death does not mean to cease to exist when our first death is spiritual seperation from God. But we are given a reprieve if we will believe. If not the second death or absolute eternal seperation is permenant. We are alive and conscience in this first death and so we will be also in the 2nd. (Luk 16 Story of Laz. and Rich man)
Has everlasting or eternal fire ever been visited upon men in the past?
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7.
You again fail to heed context for your pre-text.
Look at verse 6 that speaks of "everlasting chains" that hold the some of the Angels that fell... gives place to the context with regard to what transpired spiritually. THEN it states in verse 7 about Sodom and Gomorra as the example "suffering" (present tense active verb) the vengeance of eternal (that which has no end) fire.
What was the result of this eternal fire upon those cities?
Those cities that scripture speaks of is in actuality speaking of the PEOPLE of the cities and not the physical cities themselves. And as shown previously they are currently SUFFERING the vengeance of eternal fire.
"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6.
NOTE. - "Everlasting" fire converted these cities into ashes, and the apostle says they were made an ensample to those who should after live ungodly. We cannot for a moment suppose that those cities are now burning; for the saline waters of the Dead Sea rollover the very spot where they stood.
NOTE: you are trying to bring together two scriptures that are not dealing with the same things. You are tearing them out of context to fit your pre-text. 2 Peter is about those cities being examples of how a believer should not live and that God destroyed physically the actual cities BUT saved Just Lot. This is not about those cities eternal Judgment but about their physical Judgment wherein Just Lot was brought away from. On is a reference to the Physical Judgment and the other is a reference to their Spiritual Judgment. They ARE NOT one and the same.
What will be the final effect of this fire on the wicked?
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power." 2 Thess. 1:9.
NOTE: Destruction in the Koine or original Greek is the destruction of the flesh NOT spirit. Here (1.) Their punishment will be no less than destruction,
not of their being but of that natural life they gloried in; not that of the body alone, but both as to body and soul. (2.) This destruction will be everlasting.
They shall be always dying, and yet never die. Their misery will run parallel with the line of eternity. The chains of darkness are everlasting chains, and the fire is everlasting fire. It must needs be so, since the punishment is inflicted by an eternal and Everlasting God,
fastening upon an immortal soul, set out of the reach of Gods mercy and grace. (3.) This destruction shall come from the presence of the Lord, that is, immediately from God himself. Here on the earth God punishes sinners by creatures, by instruments; but at that moment He will take the work into His own hands. It will be destruction from the Almighty. (4.) It shall come from the glory of his power. Not only the justice of God, but this almighty power, will be glorified in this Judgment of destruction upon sinners; This is consistant with all the other verses of scripture concerning the eternal condemnation (judgment) received by Sinners. And this fits with Matt 25:46
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murders, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death." Rev. 21:8.
In this fire will there be torment? and how long will it last?
"He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever." Rev. 14:10, 11.
NOTE. - The Greek term translated in this text "forever and ever," has different meanings; according to the connection in which it is used, such as, duration, finite or infinite; unlimited duration, past or future; time, age, lifetime; the world, universe. Greenfield.
Yes, and you just proved my point. Their torment is for an UNLIMITED duration. What is the duration on the Time specified (temporal - our time which is finite and ending or Eternal which has no end and therefore Infinite)? We find that it is in the infinite time line since it is something that comes up before God who dwells in eternity then so the "forever and ever" is in regard to eternity and not the temporal or finite which HAS an end. We know this is also in eternity (without end) since this is going on spiritually and therefore the backdrop is THAT OF eternity.
How is the term understood in the case of certain Hebrew servants?
"His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever." Ex. 21:6.
Again just as your own quote states that the duration of forever is determinded according to the context or connection in which it is used. Here it is used in the temporal because it relates to the physical world that HAS an end. Eternity has no end.
NOTE. - He could not serve his master longer than he lived.
For how long a time did Samuel's mother lend him to the Lord to serve in the temple?
Again Forever is determinded according to the connection in which it is used. This is in the temporal or physical plain of existence. Again it has an end, Eternity does not.
"I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide forever." "Therefore also I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord." 1 Sam. 1:22, 28.
Again Forever is determinded according to the connection in which it is used. This is in the temporal or physical plain of existence. Again it has an end, Eternity does not.
NOTE. - In this case it is definitely stated to be ''as long as he liveth." Had Samuel lived only a week or a month, the "forever" would have been limited to a week or a month. It is evident that the term "forever" often means "limited duration."
Again in order to be consistent with scripture Forever in etenity is that which proceed throughout eternity as it must go on forever.
