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Question about the Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Mike McK, Mar 16, 2004.

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  1. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    I'm having an ongoing conversation with a Oneness Pentacostal person right now and they asked me a question that I'm not sure how to answer.

    If the Holy Spirit is 1/3 of the Trinity and we assume that He is God, why doesn't He have a throne along with the Father and the Son in Revelation?

    Any ideas?
     
    #1 Mike McK, Mar 16, 2004
  2. MEE

    MEE <img src=/me3.jpg>

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    Mike, are you saying that there is two thrones in heaven and you are curious as to why the Holy Spirit doesn't have one also?

    MEE [​IMG]
     
    #2 MEE, Mar 16, 2004
  3. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    My belief about this is that when Jesus was on earth and the same is true now that He is in Heaven, is the embodiment of the Father, the Son and the precious Holy Spirit. Before the world and universe was created, He is the one true God.

    One throne. Hebrews 1:3-4.

    The Bible says, 'He that hath seen Me has seen the Father.'
     
    #3 Ray Berrian, Mar 16, 2004
  4. cotton

    cotton New Member

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    Mike
    I think it would make a difference whether the person who asked was being sincere or not; If they're being sincere, I would answer that the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. In Hebrew its called "Ruach HaChodesh" (the set apart breath). They're not 'separate'.

    If the person you're talking to is actually being sarcastic, then I would ask them if they have a spirit and does it use a chair?
    Cotton
     
    #4 cotton, Mar 16, 2004
  5. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    Ray and MEE,

    Thanks for your answers, but remember, I'm looking for answers from an orthodox, Trinitarian perspective.
     
    #5 Mike McK, Mar 16, 2004
  6. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    No, they're being very sincere but it's a question no one has ever asked me before so I don't know how to answer them.
     
    #6 Mike McK, Mar 16, 2004
  7. MEE

    MEE <img src=/me3.jpg>

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    Mike, there is only one throne. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is one God, so why would you even think about more that one throne?

    Revelation 4:2) And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, *A THRONE* was set in heaven, and ONE sat on *THE THRONE.*

    MEE [​IMG]
     
    #7 MEE, Mar 16, 2004
  8. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    Mike, there is only one throne. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is one God, so why would you even think about more that one throne?

    Revelation 4:2) And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, *A THRONE* was set in heaven, and ONE sat on *THE THRONE.*

    MEE [​IMG]     </font>[/QUOTE]Hi, Mee, that's another subject for another time and I'd love to talk about that with you in another thread, if you'd like to start one. Right now, though, I'm looking specifically for orthodox, Trinitarian answers to this question.
     
    #8 Mike McK, Mar 16, 2004
  9. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Someone said something like 'If the Holy Spirit is 1/3 of the Trinity . . . '

    Ray is saying, 'A similar phrase like the one above does not necessarily mean that people like this are not Christian, just that they do not understand the Being of the Godhead. The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God.'

    Someone offered this idea. ' . . . we assume that He is God . . . '

    Ray is saying, 'I think I am reading the persons thoughts correctly, when I say that people who believe that the Holy Spirit is one third of God are already entertaining an un-Trinitarian concept. Does not the idea of 'assuming' something, hint that there is a sense that people are unconvinced or skeptical about any given subject?

    Ray is saying, 'It has been asked why the Holy Spirit does not have a throne. When you and I get to Heaven and see Jesus on the throne of His majesty, we will be viewing Him in our heavenly body, as the one God in three Persons.

    When I was in Bible college I was told there was a group in Lancaster County Pennsylvania called, "Jesus Only." We make a mistake theologically speaking when we over emphasize one of the Persons of the Godhead.
     
    #9 Ray Berrian, Mar 16, 2004
  10. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    No, I do hold to an orthodox, Trinitarian view of the Trinity. If you'll go back and read my post again, you'll see that I didn't say that the Holy Spirit is 1/3 of God but 1/3 of the Trinity.

    A Trinity, by it's very nature is made up of three parts. Any one of those three parts is 1/3.

    Remember also that the Trinity, itself, is not God. It's a way of identifying the three members of the Godhead.

    No. To say that we are assuming something is a rhetorical device used to establish a premise, to establish a presupposition.

    I appreciate that but that wasn't the question.
     
    #10 Mike McK, Mar 16, 2004
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    At Christ's Baptism the Father says "This is My beloved Son".

    The Holy Spirit descends in the form of a dove.

    We have the trinity clearly represented in that case.

    In John 16 Christ said that the Holy Spirit will Not speak of His Own - but will relate what Christ says.

    Earlier in the book of John Christ said that HE does not speak HIS own word - but only that which the Father gives.

    The hierarchy within the trinity is clearly seen.

    The "role" of each member of the Godhead is also clear. Christ is God's outreach across the infinite Gap between the infinite God and all His finite intelligent creation.

    The Holy Spirit is the unseen, external Power and drawing of God according to John 3. He is the Spirit of Christ that dwells in each Christian. His role therefore does not involve a throne.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #11 BobRyan, Mar 16, 2004
  12. atestring

    atestring New Member

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    This is my Understanding
    The Holy Spirit is God.
    The Father is God
    Jesus is God.

    The Bible Says Behold O Israel the Lord our God is one God.
    They are not three God's
    The Holy Spirit is not a part of God, HE is God.

    In Jesus the very fullness of the Godhead dwelt bodily.

    Jesus Prayed to the Father on the Cross.
    Jesus Went away so that the Holy Spirit would come to the earth.
    I do not cloaim to be an expert on this topic. But this is my understanding.
     
    #12 atestring, Mar 16, 2004
  13. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    atestring,

    I hope I wrote your name or title correctly.

    Your concepts in your post are orthodox and Trinitarian. Unfortunately, in our world there are far too few of us who believe in the reality and vitality of the Godhead, as you so described.
     
    #13 Ray Berrian, Mar 16, 2004
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Jesus told Nicodemus that the Holy Spirit causes the New Birth and that no one can go to heaven without being born again.

    He also told Nicodemus that this had to be common knowledge for all Jewish Bible teachers.

    In the OT we find the H.S as both God hovering over the waters of the new earth AND as the one that causes the New Birth and guides the saints etc.

    The Trinity was fully present in both OT and NT AND also during the life of Christ.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #14 BobRyan, Mar 16, 2004
  15. atestring

    atestring New Member

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    If someone ask me this question I would have to say that I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is 1/3 of the trinity. The Holy Spirit is 100% God.
    Jesus Is 100% God
    The Father is 100% God.
    Behold o Israel the Lord our God is "One" God.
    Could it be that oneness and trinitarians believe the same thing but express it differently?
    This is a subject that can get confusing and I do not claim to be an expert on this one. All I know is that I love God He is my Father, He is my redeemer because the redemption paid by Jesus and the Holy Spirit drew me to Jesus and the Holy Spirit adides with me now.
     
    #15 atestring, Mar 17, 2004
  16. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    Right, but each is a distinct person.

    No, "Oneness" teaches a heretical called sabellianism (or, more commonly, modalism), which says that the three members of the Godhead are not distinct persons, seperate from the other, but that each is a manifestation (or "mode") of God the Father.

    Sabellianist heresy, taught by groups such as Oneness pentacostals and Trinitarianism, taught by orthodox Christianity are not the same thing.

    That's how this conversation started in the first place.
     
    #16 Mike McK, Mar 17, 2004
  17. atestring

    atestring New Member

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    Mike,
    What is your criteria for "Orthodox Christianity"?
     
    #17 atestring, Mar 17, 2004
  18. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    "A Throne" - A seat of authority...

    Consider this (Monkey Wrench [​IMG] ) The U.S. Supreme Court is THE (Singular) Supreme Seat of Judicial Authority in the United States...

    Yet 9 Justices 'sit' on the 'seat'.

    This 'basic' concept is supported (somewhat) by:
     
    #18 SpiritualMadMan, Mar 17, 2004
  19. MEE

    MEE <img src=/me3.jpg>

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    You know, you would think that some trinitarian would attempt to give Mike an answer. :confused:

    Why no *takers?*

    MEE [​IMG]
     
    #19 MEE, Mar 18, 2004
  20. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    And, what am I 'chopped liver'? [​IMG]
    posted March 17, 2004 11:49 AM
    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
    #20 SpiritualMadMan, Mar 18, 2004
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