Question about the Spirit and Tongues

[RedemptionAddiction]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]I've been reading from Acts chapter 2 and wanted to know what you guys thought about this . . .[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]1: And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2: And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3: And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Now, when the people from all different backgrounds began to wonder about the disciples who were filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues (vs 5-13), Peter's response is this . . .[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]14: But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]So, here, in reference to being filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues, Peter says this is what Joel prophesied about. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]So, here is my question: if someone were to say, "According to Peter's commentary on Joel's prophecy, being filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues is what Joel was talking about. Therefore, anyone who wants to experience the prophecy of Joel, should be filled with the Spirit and speak in tongues because that's what Peter said it was." Would this be correct or incorrect? If incorrect, please tell me why. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Notice the wording of Peter in reference to those who had been filled and were speaking in tongues "THIS IS what was spoken by Joel . . ."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Thanks[/FONT]

 

[LeBuick]

Look at the definition of speaking in tounges;

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

 

[DHK]

The prophecy was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. It was a one-time event in history. Pentecost will never be repeated. How many times do you hear a mighty rushing wind or cloven tongues of fire accompanying the so-called gibberish of today.

 

[Don]

Here is the core problem with what you're asking:

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Therefore, anyone who wants to experience the prophecy of Joel, should be filled with the Spirit and speak in tongues because that's what Peter said it was.[/FONT]

Where in scripture does it say that I should want to experience the prophecy of Joel?

Instead, scripture tells us to desire the gift of salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

That is the right question to be asking --

here is the "right answer" to go with it --

1 Corinthians 14

Prophecy a Superior Gift

1Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

 

[BobRyan]

The prophecy was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. It was a one-time event in history. Pentecost will never be repeated. How many times do you hear a mighty rushing wind or cloven tongues of fire accompanying the so-called gibberish of today.

By contrast and long after pentecost --

1 Corinthians 14

Prophecy a Superior Gift

1Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

 

[DHK]

By contrast and long after pentecost --

1 Corinthians 14

Prophecy a Superior Gift

1Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Where is the evidence that those who spoke in tongues in Corinth spoke with cloven tongues hovering over them.
It was a one time event in history. It will never happen again.

 

[Don]

Disagree, Bob.

What you quoted says we should desire to prophesy. It does not say we should desire to experience a prophesy. The two are not the same.

 

[Don]

Moreover, go back and look at the prophecy of Joel.

What does Joel say happens AFTER the Lord pours out His spirit upon all flesh, giving the sons and daughters the gift of prophesy, and the old men dreams, and the young men visions?

There will be wonders in the heavens and the earth, blood, fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, the moon to blood.

And whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The Lord pours out His spirit upon ALL flesh, and afterwards, whosoever calls upon His name shall be delivered. Not delivered because of the pouring out of the spirit, but because they called upon His name.

 

[BobRyan]

Disagree, Bob.

What you quoted says we should desire to prophesy. It does not say we should desire to experience a prophesy. The two are not the same.

#1. No such thing as "exerpience a prophecy" in scripture - where did you get such a phrase?

#2. All agree 1Cor 12 declares the GIFT of prophecy to be one that the Spirit GIVES to the church "each member" being given some gift as the Spirit will.s

3. God ALREADY told us that WHEN this gift is given it is given in the form of "God making Himself known by dream or vision". In 1Cor 14 it is called "a revelation". In Rev 1 John states that HE too was given "a revelation".

No possible chance of watering this one down.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Still waiting for a response on this one

DHK
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
The prophecy was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. It was a one-time event in history. Pentecost will never be repeated. How many times do you hear a mighty rushing wind or cloven tongues of fire accompanying the so-called gibberish of today.

By contrast and long after pentecost --

1 Corinthians 14

Prophecy a Superior Gift

1Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

 

[DHK]

Still waiting for a response on this one




By contrast and long after pentecost --

1 Corinthians 14

Prophecy a Superior Gift

1Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

This chapter has nothing to do with what happened on the Day of Pentecost. Pentecost will never repeat itself. It was a one-time event. 1Cor.14 is a rebuke. Almost every verse in that chapter is a rebuke to those who were misusing the gift of tongues (which like prophecy) was passing out of existence even as Paul wrote that letter. It was a comparison between the two gifts in which he was saying that prophecy was the better gift of the two, therefore it is better that you prophecy than to try and speak in tongues. But all that doesn't matter now. They have ceased (1Cor.13:8).

 

[Don]

#1. No such thing as "exerpience a prophecy" in scripture - where did you get such a phrase?

From the opening post. Go back and read my original response, where I quoted RedemptionAddiction: [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Therefore, anyone who wants to experience the prophecy of Joel, should be filled with the Spirit and speak in tongues because that's what Peter said it was.[/FONT]

#2. All agree 1Cor 12 declares the GIFT of prophecy to be one that the Spirit GIVES to the church "each member" being given some gift as the Spirit will.s

And that doesn't lead you from point 1, which was in error because I was referring to RedemptionAddict's statement that "anyone who wants to experience the prophecy of Joel."

3. God ALREADY told us that WHEN this gift is given it is given in the form of "God making Himself known by dream or vision". In 1Cor 14 it is called "a revelation". In Rev 1 John states that HE too was given "a revelation".

No possible chance of watering this one down.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, I'm not going to argue prophecy vs. prophesy, or whether it's a gift for today or not, or whether it's a gift that's being used properly (Dutch Sheets is an excellent example; in 1998, he "prophesied" that Las Vegas would experience a huge electrical outage. Never happened.).

I'm personally focused on what RedemptionAddict wrote, which specifically said "those desiring to experience a prophecy."

With that context in mind, would you agree with what I said or not? Should we desire to experience a prophecy?

 

[BobRyan]

From the opening post. Go back and read my original response, where I quoted RedemptionAddiction: [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Therefore, anyone who wants to experience the prophecy of Joel, should be filled with the Spirit and speak in tongues because that's what Peter said it was.[/FONT]


And that doesn't lead you from point 1, which was in error because I was referring to RedemptionAddict's statement that "anyone who wants to experience the prophecy of Joel."

Don
Bob, I'm not going to argue prophecy vs. prophesy,

The first is a noun the second is a verb (some action that you do or that God does to you)

Don
I'm personally focused on what RedemptionAddict wrote, which specifically said "those desiring to experience a prophecy."

Experience or take part in what Joel predicted to happen "in the last days".

NT Age opens with Prophecy as the gift for NT saints –

Acts 2
15 ""For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;
16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 " AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, "THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
18 EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT And they shall prophesy.


Local Church members still seeking prophesy as an ongoing gift long after all Bible writers “had their gifts”
1 Corinthians 14
1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
...
5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues,
...
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, EACH ONE HAS a psalm, has a teaching, has a
REVELATION, has a TONGUE, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

WOW - each had either a tongue, revelation or teaching gift?? Amazing!

Don
With that context in mind, would you agree with what I said or not? Should we desire to experience a prophecy?

We should desire what 1Cor 14 says. "Desire earnestly spiritual gifts -- especially that YOU may prophesy (verb)".

It is the same "prophesy" that we see in Acts 2.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[David Lamb]

Disagree, Bob.

What you quoted says we should desire to prophesy. It does not say we should desire to experience a prophesy. The two are not the same.

removed - realised I was diuplicating someone else's answer

 

[Don]

Just for clarity, Bob - you're saying you agree with RedemptionAddict, that we should desire to experience a prophecy.

 

[AAA]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]I've been reading from Acts chapter 2 and wanted to know what you guys thought about this . . .[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]1: And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2: And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3: And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Now, when the people from all different backgrounds began to wonder about the disciples who were filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues (vs 5-13), Peter's response is this . . .[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]14: But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]So, here, in reference to being filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues, Peter says this is what Joel prophesied about. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]So, here is my question: if someone were to say, "According to Peter's commentary on Joel's prophecy, being filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues is what Joel was talking about. Therefore, anyone who wants to experience the prophecy of Joel, should be filled with the Spirit and speak in tongues because that's what Peter said it was." Would this be correct or incorrect? If incorrect, please tell me why. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Notice the wording of Peter in reference to those who had been filled and were speaking in tongues "THIS IS what was spoken by Joel . . ."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Thanks[/FONT]

This is exacly what the cult of "oneness pentecostalism" believes.....

I believe that we can be filled by the Spirit without speaking in tongues....

WHY?

I have to get back to you on this one....

 

[DHK]

So, here is my question: if someone were to say, "According to Peter's commentary on Joel's prophecy, being filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues is what Joel was talking about. Therefore, anyone who wants to experience the prophecy of Joel, should be filled with the Spirit and speak in tongues because that's what Peter said it was." Would this be correct or incorrect? If incorrect, please tell me why.

As AAA pointed out, the question is very simple, and it is the position of the Oneness Pentecostal. Their position (and that which is being asked) is: does one need to be filled with the Spirit in order to be saved. Notice that this is put as a requirement. It is a work. Salvation is by faith alone. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. The doctrine put forth here is Believe and be filled with the Holy Spirit and thou shalt be saved. The Bible does not teach that.
Furthermore, how does one know that they are filled with the Holy Spirit. The teaching is that we know a person is filled with the Holy Spirit by the evidence of speaking in tongues. Thus, by default, speaking in tongues becomes a requirement for salvation. Faith plus speaking in tongues equals salvation. Salvation is by works. You must speak in tongues in order to be saved--Oneness Pentecostal doctrine.
This entire doctrine is heresy. And of course their idea of prophecy (whatever it may be) would be heretical as well. They don't have a clue what salvation is. This is the group that cannot go outside of the book of Acts to give the gospel. The gospel must always include the Book of Acts. They cannot give the plan of salvation without the Book of Acts. That is pitiful, but it (among many other things) is a sure sign of a cult). Their doctrine is confined to a historical book, and their doctrine cannot be reconciled with any other part of the Bible. Ring any bells?

 

[BobRyan]

[/size][/font]
As AAA pointed out, the question is very simple, and it is the position of the Oneness Pentecostal. Their position (and that which is being asked) is: does one need to be filled with the Spirit in order to be saved.

#1. I do not believe one needs to speak in tongues or prophesy to be saved.

#2. I do not believe that those who do - are lost.

Therefore, anyone who wants to experience the prophecy of Joel, should be filled with the Spirit and speak in tongues because that's what Peter said it was." Would this be correct or incorrect? If incorrect, please tell me why.

I do not believe that "wanting" is "getting" in all cases. For the Holy Spirit gives to each person as He wills. However the ongoing post-pentecost command to "DESIRE" these gifts remains a Biblical command for NT saints.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Just for clarity, Bob - you're saying you agree with RedemptionAddict, that we should desire to experience a prophecy.

To "desire to experience the Joel 2" predicted blessing regarding prophesy -- yes for as Paul says "DESIRE earnestly spiritual gifts but ESPECIALLY that you may prophesy".

in Christ,

bob