Question about the Spirit and Tongues

[grahame]

The prophecy was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. It was a one-time event in history. Pentecost will never be repeated. How many times do you hear a mighty rushing wind or cloven tongues of fire accompanying the so-called gibberish of today.

Strange you should say that. I am not charismatic nor was my minister. We were a Reformed Baptist church in Wickford Essex England,
Mr. Eaton our minister went to the Isle of Lewis in the outer Hebrides of Scotland in 1949 and saw many unusual happenings during that spiritual revival. There is a tape of many eye witness accounts during that revival, which I should think is still available.

On one occassion as the whole church was praying together there was a sound as if there was a rushing mighty wind hit the church and although no one spoke in tongues everyone seemed to be very subdued and to come under a deep conviction of sin. They stayed in that church praying until the early hours of the next morning.

On another occasion Mr Eaton said that they were standing on a hillside watching people coming out from church one Sunday and for no apparent reason they all stopped at once, turned round and marched straight back into the church again.
The one thing that was characteristic of that revival, was not speaking in tongues, or indeed initial joy. But deep conviction of sin. The Holy Spirit seemed to subdue people and cause them to pray without ceasing and yes, there were people falling down in the church in deep distress about the condition of their souls.

I hear about so called revivals today, where people are immediately lifted up with joy and start speaking in tongues and are forever singing choruses. Yet there is no real conviction of sin. But what do we read in that passage in Acts? Something that is often left out in order to prove that everyone should speak in tongues.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

And of course Peters reply was

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So often this major work of the Holy Spirit is left out. But this is the real proof that we have the Holy Spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

This is another good point. The Spiritual Gifts of 1Cor 12 and 1Cor 14 are manefest in a closer walk with Christ and significant ability to shake off the old man-made doctrines-from-tradition to embrace the pure truth of Scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Strange you should say that. I am not charismatic nor was my minister. We were a Reformed Baptist church in Wickford Essex England,
Mr. Eaton our minister went to the Isle of Lewis in the outer Hebrides of Scotland in 1949 and saw many unusual happenings during that spiritual revival. There is a tape of many eye witness accounts during that revival, which I should think is still available.

On one occassion as the whole church was praying together there was a sound as if there was a rushing mighty wind hit the church and although no one spoke in tongues everyone seemed to be very subdued and to come under a deep conviction of sin. They stayed in that church praying until the early hours of the next morning.

On another occasion Mr Eaton said that they were standing on a hillside watching people coming out from church one Sunday and for no apparent reason they all stopped at once, turned round and marched straight back into the church again.
The one thing that was characteristic of that revival, was not speaking in tongues, or indeed initial joy. But deep conviction of sin. The Holy Spirit seemed to subdue people and cause them to pray without ceasing and yes, there were people falling down in the church in deep distress about the condition of their souls.

I heard of that revival. It happened before the "Third Wave" or even the "Charismatic Movement" ever got off their feet. The Pentecostals existed at that time, but not the former two groups. As you mentioined there was a great moving of the Holy Spirit as a result of many people earnestly crying to the Lord in prayer. Seldom do we hear any longer of churches willing to pray through the night for revival, for souls to be saved. Revival came because people were willing to pray, even to fast and pray. That revival will be forever remembered in the annals of time. Nothing Charismatic about it at all. It was a tremendous work of the Holy Spirit done in that area.

 

[DHK]

The gifts of the Spirit have ceased. Here is what the ministry of the Spirit consists of today;

John 16:8-11 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

 

[BobRyan]

The John 16 mission of the Holy Spirit was fully active in Acts 2, in 1Cor 12 and in 1Cor 14. The Bible is not an "either or" text where you can take John 16 and ignore Acts 2, 1Cor 12 and 1Cor 14.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

The John 16 mission of the Holy Spirit was fully active in Acts 2, in 1Cor 12 and in 1Cor 14. The Bible is not an "either or" text where you can take John 16 and ignore Acts 2, 1Cor 12 and 1Cor 14.

in Christ,

Bob

"The Bible is not an either or text" as you say.
Nether, then, can you ignore the prophesying of Saul ("Is Saul also among the prophets?") even though most consider Saul an unsaved man and in hell today.
One might also consider the prophesying of Balaam. Yes, why not use the whole Bible?

 

[BobRyan]

Saul is a clear example of an OT person that was "born again" and then lost. Samuel predicted that God would give him a new heart - and He did! Not only did the Holy Spirit work on a personnal level with Saul but Samuel repeatedly gave Saul the reproof messages of the Spirit of God -- using Saul as an example of someone to whom the Holy Spirit's John 16 ministry did not apply - is a poor choice.

Baalam was a prophet of God - and the bible tells us specifically about God's message to Baalam directing him NOT to go the direction that he wanted to go.

These examples do nothing to undermine the clear teaching of 1Cor 12 and 1Cor 14 that insist on the continuation of Spiritual Gifts AFTER pentecost for NT saints.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Saul is a clear example of an OT person that was "born again" and then lost. Samuel predicted that God would give him a new heart - and He did! Not only did the Holy Spirit work on a personnal level with Saul but Samuel repeatedly gave Saul the reproof messages of the Spirit of God -- using Saul as an example of someone to whom the Holy Spirit's John 16 ministry did not apply - is a poor choice.

Baalam was a prophet of God - and the bible tells us specifically about God's message to Baalam directing him NOT to go the direction that he wanted to go.

These examples do nothing to undermine the clear teaching of 1Cor 12 and 1Cor 14 that insist on the continuation of Spiritual Gifts AFTER pentecost for NT saints.

in Christ,

Bob

Well Bob, I am glad to see you answer in a reasonable way--"using Saul as an example...did not apply..is a poor choice."
Now I will apply your words to me (paraphrased) but directed to you.

What! Bob doesn't believe the OT! I thought there were 66 books in the Bible, but apparently Bob doesn't think so. He doesn't believe that the OT books are inspired, that God doesn't want us to use the OT today. Doesn't the Bible say that ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED! Bob must not believe that.
And thus you rant on and on.

The fact is that the Holy Spirit does not work in the various OT dispensations as he does today. He does not continue to work today as he did in Pentecost. That was an historical event, never again to repeated. Balaam's ass only spoke one time in history. Recgonize hisorical events. And the fact is that the Holy Spirit worked in the first century, the apostolic age, in a different way than he does today. Then the spiritual gifts were in effect. Today they are not. They were the signs and gifts of an apostle, though they had some other functions as well. When the apostles died the gifts died with them.

Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

 

[grahame]

Saul is a clear example of an OT person that was "born again" and then lost.

Are you sure that Saul was lost? Read what Samuel said to Saul:
(1 SAM 28:19)

and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me:

If Saul was to be with him then it means that Saul was a saved man. A disobedient man and a mentally troubled man, but still a saved man.

 

[BobRyan]

Are you sure that Saul was lost? Read what Samuel said to Saul:

(1 SAM 28:19) If Saul was to be with him then it means that Saul was a saved man. A disobedient man and a mentally troubled man, but still a saved man.

Those are the words of Satan to Saul through Satan's servant the witch of Endore. EVEN Saul admits that by God's comman NO PROPHET is allowed to speak the Word of God to him.


1 Sam 28 NASB –

6 When Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by prophets.

7Then Saul said to his servants, "Seek for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her." And his servants said to him, "Behold, there is a woman who is a medium at En-dor."
8Then Saul disguised himself by putting on other clothes, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said, "Conjure up for me, please, and bring up for me whom I shall name to you."
9But the woman said to him, "Behold, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off those who are mediums and spiritists from the land. Why are you then laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?"
10Saul vowed to her by the LORD, saying, "As the LORD lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing."
11Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" And he said, "Bring up Samuel for me."
12When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul."
13The king said to her, "Do not be afraid; but what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a divine being coming up out of the earth."
14He said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe " And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.
15Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do."
16Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has departed from you and has become your adversary?

17"The LORD has done accordingly as He spoke through me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, to David.
18"As you did not obey the LORD and did not execute His fierce wrath on Amalek, so the LORD has done this thing to you this day.
19"Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!"

Key points.

• The Medium (servant of Satan) is the one with « the power » to bring up familiar spirits and to SEE them. Saul can do neither.
• The servant of Satan brings UP a spirit out of the earth
• Saul is clear that God is NOT answering him through prophets SO HE TURNS to the spirits of satan.
• The demon states Clearly that God is now the enemy of Saul – and so Saul the enemy of God.
• The demon claims that Saul will join HIM in death – indeed BOTH of them are the enemy of God.

And the conclusion is that Saul is seeking out satan as advisor and counselor - not God --

1 Chron 10:
13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it,
14and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

Many times I get this text brought up by RC members defending prayers to the dead saints but to use it they have to overlook these same inconvenient details in the text of scripture as have been listed here.

 

[BobRyan]

DHK
Nether, then, can you ignore the prophesying of Saul ("Is Saul also among the prophets?") even though most consider Saul an unsaved man and in hell today.
One might also consider the prophesying of Balaam. Yes, why not use the whole Bible?

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Saul is a clear example of an OT person that was "born again" and then lost. Samuel predicted that God would give him a new heart - and He did! Not only did the Holy Spirit work on a personnal level with Saul but Samuel repeatedly gave Saul the reproof messages of the Spirit of God -- using Saul as an example of someone to whom the Holy Spirit's John 16 ministry did not apply - is a poor choice.

Baalam was a prophet of God - and the bible tells us specifically about God's message to Baalam directing him NOT to go the direction that he wanted to go.

These examples do nothing to undermine the clear teaching of 1Cor 12 and 1Cor 14 that insist on the continuation of Spiritual Gifts AFTER pentecost for NT saints.

Well Bob, I am glad to see you answer in a reasonable way--"using Saul as an example...did not apply..is a poor choice."
Now I will apply your words to me (paraphrased) but directed to you.

What! Bob doesn't believe the OT! I thought there were 66 books in the Bible, but apparently Bob doesn't think so. He doesn't believe that the OT books are inspired, that God doesn't want us to use the OT today. Doesn't the Bible say that ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED! Bob must not believe that.
And thus you rant on and on.

WhaHUH???!!

I beg to differ. I am appealing "to the DETAILS" of the text as valid and still authorotative for me to make your kind of arguments I would have to be saying something like "don't us the OT - use NT writings if you want to find doctrine for Christians".

When you see me doing such a thing - please feel free to use the approach you have listed above. It would be the right thing to do in that case.

My argument is that we have the SAME Holy Spirit as in the OT and that when God TELLS us what prophecy IS (as in Numbers 12) it is the SAME THING that it is today. No change. And that the convicting work of the Holy Spirit in the OT is the same as in the NT. And that the converting work of the Holy Spirit PRe-Cross (John 3:1-16) is the SAME as it is today.

No parsing, downsizing the 66.

The fact is that the Holy Spirit does not work in the various OT dispensations as he does today. He does not continue to work today as he did in Pentecost. That was an historical event, never again to repeated. Balaam's ass only spoke one time in history. Recgonize hisorical events.

1Cor 12 and 1Cor 14 were written long after Pentecost - and long after the OT and show the SAME work of the Holy Spirit in the gift of prophecy.

All 66 - still good.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Getting to that "Bob doesn't like using the 66" to get me into the same boat as you are in DHK - I would have to say something remotely similar to this...

DHK: on Downsizing Scripture –

DHK

The SDA's are so stuck to the law of the OT that given the opportunity they could not prove their doctrine using only the NT.


Yet the gospel is a NT message. The church began at Pentecost. It is called the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is a NT message not found in the OT. In Hebrews it tells us ..."having not yet received the promise..." The gospel is a NT message.

Can the SDA's demonstrate their doctrine without the OT. Le't see what happens.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=928443&postcount=118

If I ever should go to such a wild extreme as you did on your post 118 of the thread quoted above - I would HOPE that you or someone would come back to me with the kind of response you prematurely gavein your post post 28 of this thread.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1061258&postcount=28

in Christ,

Bob

 

[grahame]

Then Samuel said to Saul

That rather is the key point. Not only that, but his prophesy came true.

 

[DHK]

If I ever should go to such a wild extreme as you did on your post 118 of the thread quoted above - I would HOPE that you or someone would come back to me with the kind of response you prematurely gavein your post post 28 of this thread.

in Christ,
Bob

The fact is, you do go to such wild extremes Bob. Let me demonstrate.

There is no NT local church in the OT. You have said or implied that there is.
The NT gifts of the Spirit (1Cor.12-14) are given to the NT local church.
Yet you claim an OT Judge, Deborah, as having a NT gift of the Spirit--prophecy. This is ludicrous. The fact that she may have prophesied does not mean that she had the NT gift of the Spirit of prophecy. All the gifts of the Spirit were given to the NT churches only. There was no NT church in the OT. The church started at Pentecost. You claim that the church existed before that.
If the church started at Pentecost, then the gospel, that Christ died, was buried, and rose again began to be preached at that time also--by the church, and by believers who were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. There was no pre-cross gospel as such for Christ had not risen. The resurrection is a vital part of the gospel. Without it the gospel is incomplete. Thus the complete gospel message is not found in the OT, at least not until Christ had already been raised from the dead.
And yet you try to impose from the OT, NT doctrine. It doesn't work. The spiritual gifts of the NT church are not found in the OT. That is what you were doing. And that is not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. With this type of answer, Bob, you accused me of not believing that all the Bible wasn't inspired. Hogwash!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:

"1Cor 12 and 1Cor 14 were written long after Pentecost - and long after the OT and show the SAME work of the Holy Spirit in the gift of prophecy."

GE:

That isn't true; and it was Paul's point to show that is wasn't!

 

[BobRyan]

The fact is, you do go to such wild extremes Bob. Let me demonstrate.

There is no NT local church in the OT. You have said or implied that there is.

In Romans 11 and Rev 12 we see the people of God -- the saints in all ages united into one body of Christ. In 1Thess 4 they are ALL referred to as "the dead in Christ" and in 1Cor 10 we see that they are all baptized into Christ - all drinking from the same spiritual Rock - which is Christ,.

(Hint: Paul is telling the TRUTH in Gal 1:6-11 when he says there has always been - one and ONLY one Gospel ... not two).

But that does not mean that the OT saints were organized into local home churches as we see in the "persecuted church" of the NT.

IF you think you have quote from me showing otherwise -then go ahead and provide the quote instead of simply making accusations.

DHK
The NT gifts of the Spirit (1Cor.12-14) are given to the NT local church.
Yet you claim an OT Judge, Deborah, as having a NT gift of the Spirit--prophecy. This is ludicrous.

The Bible says Deborah AND Miriam and others were prophets in the OT. I can not deny scripture to suite your preference here DHK.

Why should you considere it "Ludicrous" for me to agree with scripture in this case?

DHK
The fact that she may have prophesied does not mean that she had the NT gift of the Spirit of prophecy.

DHK you seem to be determined to "make stuff up" no matter what scripture says. Why are you doing that? It makes it wayyy tooo easy for me to provide the scripture that debunks your assertions.

Why are you making this so easy for me??

Judges 4
4Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time.
5She used to sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim; and the sons of Israel came up to her for judgment.
6Now she sent and summoned Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh-naphtali, and said to him, "Behold, the LORD, the God of Israel, has commanded, 'Go and march to Mount Tabor, and take with you ten thousand men from the sons of Naphtali and from the sons of Zebulun.
7'I will draw out to you Sisera, the commander of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his many troops to the river Kishon, and I will give him into your hand.'"

I do not wish to appear ungrateful for these softballs that you are lobbing my direction. I just don't know why you are setting yourself up like that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

If the church started at Pentecost, then the gospel, that Christ died, was buried, and rose again began to be preached at that time also--by the church, and by believers who were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. There was no pre-cross gospel as such for Christ had not risen.

Heb 4 states clearly "The GOSPEL was preached to US just as it was to THEM ALSO".

Peter argues the the OT prophets WERE shown the SUFFERINGS of Christ AND the GLORIES to follow.

Even the New Covenant text of Heb 8 and 10 is borrowed from the OT!

That is why Paul can argue that there has always been one and ONLY ONE Gospel in BOTH the OT and NT times.

The fact that we understand MORE DETAILs today than they may have had in the OT does not negate the fact that God has been presenting THE ONE AND ONLY Gospel since OT times.

Case in point.
In Gen 1-2:3 and in Exodus 20:8-11 we are told that God created the world n 6 days and rested on the Sabbath -- we are also told how those 6 24 hour days are divided up in terms of what was made on each day by our Creator. But in John 1 and in Colossians 1 we are given the added NT detail that Christ - God the Son - was the member of the Godhead doing that work of creating. This is a detail about our Creator and the Creation process that we did not have in the OT. Yet the OT facts about the 7 days of Creation week and what was made on each day "do not get abolished" simply because we have MORE information ADDED to the story in the NT. Scripture ADDs to that which has been written - it does not abolish and/or contradict it -

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said -
11Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" And he said, "Bring up Samuel for me."
12When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul."
13The king said to her, "Do not be afraid; but what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a divine being coming up out of the earth."
14He said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe " And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.
15Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do."
16Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has departed from you and has become your adversary?

17"The LORD has done accordingly as He spoke through me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, to David.
18"As you did not obey the LORD and did not execute His fierce wrath on Amalek, so the LORD has done this thing to you this day.
19"Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!"

Key points.

• The Medium (servant of Satan) is the one with « the power » to bring up familiar spirits and to SEE them. Saul can do neither.
• The servant of Satan brings UP a spirit out of the earth
• Saul is clear that God is NOT answering him through prophets SO HE TURNS to the spirits of satan.
• The demon states Clearly that God is now the enemy of Saul – and so Saul the enemy of God.
• The demon claims that Saul will join HIM in death – indeed BOTH of them are the enemy of God.

And the conclusion is that Saul is seeking out satan as advisor and counselor - not God --

1 Chron 10:
13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it,
14and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

Many times I get this text brought up by RC members defending prayers to the dead saints but to use it they have to overlook these same inconvenient details in the text of scripture as have been listed here.

That rather is the key point. Not only that, but his prophesy came true.

You have glossed over a lot of detail in the scripture highlighted above to land on that point out of context.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[RedemptionAddiction]

Uh oh

Well .. . . . This one really got away from me.

Thanks for the responses, though

 

[eightball]

Here is the core problem with what you're asking:


Where in scripture does it say that I should want to experience the prophecy of Joel?

Instead, scripture tells us to desire the gift of salvation.

I think that it was Charity/love, that Paul said was the greatest gift/attribute of the believer. Did not Paul say that without love, all gifts are basically useless, and like an empty gonging bell?

Believers do not desire the gift of salvation, as they have acquired it already.

Now if the topic scripture was pointedly aiming at the unsaved then the desire of salvation would be upper-most.