Question concerning Abel, faith and being justified

[percho]

I would like to know what anyone reading this thread thinks and or believes as to why Abel offered blood sacrifices and his brother did not offer blood sacrifices? Why did Abel live by faith and Cain did not? Is, "faith," relative to this statement? Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Will there be, "faith," if there is not a seed of the woman to come? Will that seed of the woman be conceived of in the woman by God is a Spirit of John 4:24, The Father? For there to be, "faith," will that seed need to be compliant and or obedient to the will of the Father?

We are told that Cain was of his father the devil. Was the seed of the woman going to come through Cain? If the answer is no, which I believe it is, can we then say that Cain was not of faith and he was not going to do things, by faith?

Considering this verse, was Abel had Cain had not killed him before he had children to be the seed unto the seed of the woman? Genesis 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Was Abel the seed of faith but Satan through Cain killed him, childless, and God replaced him with Seth?

Did Abel offer blood sacrifices because he was of God unto the Christ, that is of faith. Was he justified, and righteous because he was of God. His blood, the soul of the flesh, Lev 17:11 cries out from the ground. Will he be raised from the dead incorruptible to inherit the kingdom of God?

Why?

I say because the word of God, speaks of him as being of God, of the faith, which is the seed of the woman to come and learn and become obedient unto shedding his blood, for our sins and not because of something he may or may not have believed with his mind.

BTW I am not going to further respond to this thread unless invited and it is my thread. I would just like to see some discussion relative to the above and to understand others understanding.

I'm sick of all the crap and name calling that goes on in the threads on this board.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Bible tells us that Abel is a prophet, and that although he never spoke when he was alive, he is still speaking to us today. What does he say? He says, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.'

You see, Abel believed the Bible. He only had Genesis 1-3, which he would have learned from his parents, but he believed it and it was quite enough to save him.

Look at Gen 3:15. God is pronouncing judgement upon the serpent. “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your Seed and her seed; He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise His heel.’ Who is this who is the Seed or Offspring of the woman but not of the man? Who else but the Lord Jesus Christ, born by the power of the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary? He is the One who will suffer (the bruising of the heel), but will crush the head of Satan. This is God’s way of redemption; to release His people from the power of sin and death through a second Adam (1Cor 15:22 ); through the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. And this salvation was announced to Adam and Eve in Eden and signified by God Himself when He clothed the guilty couple. ‘Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them’ (Gen 3:21 ), and in order for that to happen, an innocent creature had to die, signifying that, ‘without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin’ (Heb 9:22 ). The justice of God does not permit it.

Now all this Abel knew. He would have heard the whole story from his parents. This was his Bible, and God the Holy Spirit opened his heart to receive it all as truth. He saw himself in his true colours, as a sinner in desperate need of redemption. And he saw that his only hope lay in a covering or atonement for his sin. He needed a Saviour- one who would take away his sin by being a perfect, holy, spotless sacrifice of propitiation, acceptable to God. In short, he looked down the centuries and saw by the eye of faith the Lord Jesus Christ bleeding and dying on the cross for him. ‘For so God loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.’ And Abel, moved with love for the God who loved him so much, took the finest lamb of his flock and sacrificed it to the Lord as a foreshadowing of the Lamb of God, who should take away the sin of the world (John 1:29 ). ‘By faith Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice’ (Heb 11:4 ). It was not the sacrifice that made him righteous before God. Hebrews 10:4 tells us that the sacrifice of animals cannot take away sin. It was his faith that made the sacrifice acceptable to God inasmuch as it looked forward to Christ, the one true acceptable offering to God.

Abel knew nothing of circumcision, and nothing of baptism. The one was an ordinance for the Jewish people, the other is an ordinance for Christians, but neither brings salvation. Only the blood of Christ does that, whether looking forward to the cross as did Abel and Abraham (John 8:56 ) or back towards it as Christians do today. No religious rite can bring us to God, only trust in the work of Christ.

So, have you stood where Abel stood? Have you seen yourself as a guilty sinner, justly condemned by God? Have you looked back down the years by faith, as Abel looked forward, to the cross? There is no sacrifice now; Christ has made one perfect offering forever (Hebrews 10:12 ), but when you take the bread and wine in the Lord’s Supper, do you remember the Saviour who stood between you and hell and took your punishment upon Himself?

Now what shall we say about Cain? Well, he believed in God, you know. Oh yes! A regular church-goer Cain was. Gen 4:3. ‘And in the process of time……Cain brought an offering of the Fruit of the ground to the LORD.’ If he’d been a member of your church, he’d have had a standing order, or Gift-aid. So many bushels of wheat a month, tax deductable. In fact, I suggest that Cain is alive and well and living in churches up and down the country. But, ‘the LORD respected Abel and his offering, but He did not respect Cain and his offering’ (Gen 4:4-5 ).

In the light of this, how can anyone say that doctrine doesn’t matter? Here is a straightforward doctrinal difference between Cain and Abel and one is acceptable to God and one isn’t. Cain’s doctrine acknowledges God as Creator, but not as Saviour. Cain feels a little queasy with all this blood theology. Cain says, “It doesn’t matter what you believe as long as you’re sincere.” Cain’s into the Inter-faith movement, the Ecumenical movement and the Emerging Church movement, but the prophet Abel says, “I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified” (1Cor 2:2 ). The prophet Abel says, “Jews request a sign, and Greeks demand wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified” (1Cor 1:22-23 ). The prophet Abel says, “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12 ).

At the heart of Cain’s religion is self-will. The belief that God will be satisfied with what I choose to give Him. Thus whilst Abel brings the best he has, ‘The first-born of his flock’, Cain finds a few potatoes and a turnip and brings that (cf. Malachi 1:7-8 ). When Cain looks at the cross, he doesn’t see his Saviour bleeding and dying in his place, he sees a sort of example of goodness and kindness that he thinks he can follow. Cain imagines that if he turns up in church once a week, puts a few coins in the offertory box and keeps himself from some of the grosser sins, God will be quite happy with that. Some people do a whole lot more than that, but it’s still Cain religion, because it’s what a man does for himself, it’s Adam’s fig leaf again! The prophet Abel depends on none of that; his whole desire is, ‘That I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Jesus Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith’ (Phil 3:8-9 ).

Taken from my blog post https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2009/08/28/the-prophet-abel/

BTW I am not going to further respond to this thread unless invited and it is my thread. I would just like to see some discussion relative to the above and to understand others understanding.

I'm sick of all the [expletive deleted] and name calling that goes on in the threads on this board.

Amen! We should be able to disagree with each other without getting in a tizzy.
We're going to have to spend eternity with each other, guys. We'd better get used to getting along together. Please feel free to respond, Percho.

 

[Marooncat79]

Just to be clear. There was no "written" Genesis 1-3 at the time of Cain and Abel. The pentateuch was not written by Moses until about 1400 bc +|- a few yrs. Cain and Abel were alive about 2500 yrs or so before Moses.

I do think that they knew much more than we know.

 

[percho]

The Bible tells us that Abel is a prophet, and that although he never spoke when he was alive, he is still speaking to us today. What does he say? He says, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.'

You see, Abel believed the Bible. He only had Genesis 1-3, which he would have learned from his parents, but he believed it and it was quite enough to save him.

Look at Gen 3:15. God is pronouncing judgement upon the serpent. “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your Seed and her seed; He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise His heel.’ Who is this who is the Seed or Offspring of the woman but not of the man? Who else but the Lord Jesus Christ, born by the power of the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary? He is the One who will suffer (the bruising of the heel), but will crush the head of Satan. This is God’s way of redemption; to release His people from the power of sin and death through a second Adam (1Cor 15:22 ); through the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. And this salvation was announced to Adam and Eve in Eden and signified by God Himself when He clothed the guilty couple. ‘Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them’ (Gen 3:21 ), and in order for that to happen, an innocent creature had to die, signifying that, ‘without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin’ (Heb 9:22 ). The justice of God does not permit it.

Now all this Abel knew. He would have heard the whole story from his parents. This was his Bible, and God the Holy Spirit opened his heart to receive it all as truth. He saw himself in his true colours, as a sinner in desperate need of redemption. And he saw that his only hope lay in a covering or atonement for his sin. He needed a Saviour- one who would take away his sin by being a perfect, holy, spotless sacrifice of propitiation, acceptable to God. In short, he looked down the centuries and saw by the eye of faith the Lord Jesus Christ bleeding and dying on the cross for him. ‘For so God loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.’ And Abel, moved with love for the God who loved him so much, took the finest lamb of his flock and sacrificed it to the Lord as a foreshadowing of the Lamb of God, who should take away the sin of the world (John 1:29 ). ‘By faith Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice’ (Heb 11:4 ). It was not the sacrifice that made him righteous before God. Hebrews 10:4 tells us that the sacrifice of animals cannot take away sin. It was his faith that made the sacrifice acceptable to God inasmuch as it looked forward to Christ, the one true acceptable offering to God.

Abel knew nothing of circumcision, and nothing of baptism. The one was an ordinance for the Jewish people, the other is an ordinance for Christians, but neither brings salvation. Only the blood of Christ does that, whether looking forward to the cross as did Abel and Abraham (John 8:56 ) or back towards it as Christians do today. No religious rite can bring us to God, only trust in the work of Christ.

So, have you stood where Abel stood? Have you seen yourself as a guilty sinner, justly condemned by God? Have you looked back down the years by faith, as Abel looked forward, to the cross? There is no sacrifice now; Christ has made one perfect offering forever (Hebrews 10:12 ), but when you take the bread and wine in the Lord’s Supper, do you remember the Saviour who stood between you and hell and took your punishment upon Himself?

Now what shall we say about Cain? Well, he believed in God, you know. Oh yes! A regular church-goer Cain was. Gen 4:3. ‘And in the process of time……Cain brought an offering of the Fruit of the ground to the LORD.’ If he’d been a member of your church, he’d have had a standing order, or Gift-aid. So many bushels of wheat a month, tax deductable. In fact, I suggest that Cain is alive and well and living in churches up and down the country. But, ‘the LORD respected Abel and his offering, but He did not respect Cain and his offering’ (Gen 4:4-5 ).

In the light of this, how can anyone say that doctrine doesn’t matter? Here is a straightforward doctrinal difference between Cain and Abel and one is acceptable to God and one isn’t. Cain’s doctrine acknowledges God as Creator, but not as Saviour. Cain feels a little queasy with all this blood theology. Cain says, “It doesn’t matter what you believe as long as you’re sincere.” Cain’s into the Inter-faith movement, the Ecumenical movement and the Emerging Church movement, but the prophet Abel says, “I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified” (1Cor 2:2 ). The prophet Abel says, “Jews request a sign, and Greeks demand wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified” (1Cor 1:22-23 ). The prophet Abel says, “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12 ).

At the heart of Cain’s religion is self-will. The belief that God will be satisfied with what I choose to give Him. Thus whilst Abel brings the best he has, ‘The first-born of his flock’, Cain finds a few potatoes and a turnip and brings that (cf. Malachi 1:7-8 ). When Cain looks at the cross, he doesn’t see his Saviour bleeding and dying in his place, he sees a sort of example of goodness and kindness that he thinks he can follow. Cain imagines that if he turns up in church once a week, puts a few coins in the offertory box and keeps himself from some of the grosser sins, God will be quite happy with that. Some people do a whole lot more than that, but it’s still Cain religion, because it’s what a man does for himself, it’s Adam’s fig leaf again! The prophet Abel depends on none of that; his whole desire is, ‘That I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Jesus Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith’ (Phil 3:8-9 ).

Taken from my blog post https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2009/08/28/the-prophet-abel/


Amen! We should be able to disagree with each other without getting in a tizzy.
We're going to have to spend eternity with each other, guys. We'd better get used to getting along together. Please feel free to respond, Percho.

I am going to post a few scriptures all YLT and ask a couple of questions.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev 13:9
having known that, not with corruptible things -- silver or gold -- were ye redeemed from your foolish behaviour delivered by fathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted -- Christ's -- foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you, 1 Peter 1:18-20---------------Before the foundation of the world something was going to take place, for righteousness sake.

for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor 5:21 ---- Would that require something for righteousness? Romans 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous. --- Was that obedience learned through sufferings unto fear of death? Hebrews 5:7,8 who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,

Is that not the obedience of faith? Please consider: John 16:7 'But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter (the Spirit) will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you; Gal 3:14 that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith. --- Was it through the obedience of faith the Spirit (the Comforter) and righteousness was received/given to us?

 

[percho]

Continued


but ye do not believe, for ye are not of my sheep, according as I said to you: My sheep my voice do hear, and I know them, and they follow me, and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish -- to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand; John 10:26-28
he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil; every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten. In this manifest are the children of God, and the children of the devil; every one who is not doing righteousness, is not of God, and he who is not loving his brother, because this is the message that ye did hear from the beginning, that we may love one another, not as Cain -- of the evil one he was, and he did slay his brother, and wherefore did he slay him? because his works were evil, and those of his brother righteous. 1 John 3:8-12

Did Abel do the works he did because he was of God that is of the faith to come, whereas Cain did the works he did because he was of the wicked one, not of the faith to come? Did God replace the childless one unto faith, Abel with another unto faith, Seth? Gen 4:25 And Adam again knoweth his wife, and she beareth a son, and calleth his name Seth, 'for God hath appointed for me another seed instead of Abel:' for Cain had slain him.

I believe a good question to ask is; Why did God allow Abel to die childless? I have pondered why was Abel the first to experience, Dying thou dost die. Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

Doesn't this actually make salvation all of God? For God to destroy the works of the devil through the manifested Son of God didn't it require for there to be vessels of honor and also dishonor?