Question for Arminians

[Calvibaptist]

Do you pray?

I tried to find a verse that dealt with man's sovereign free will, but I couldn't, so this will have to do.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

If God is a "perfect gentleman" as you all say, then why would you pray for Him to move in someone's heart to bring them to the point of salvation? Why pray if God is powerless to change someone unless they want Him to?

 

[Plain Old Bill]

When we pray(Christians calvinists/armenians)for God to touch someones heart and bring them under conviction we are asking for God's help.
Calvinists and Armenians of different stripes are way to busy telling each other what the other thinks.
God does have a direct hand in our salvation but He chooses to give us a choice so we are not simply robots.We don't have the choice on our own it is God who gives the choice to us.It is God who convicts us of sin so we become aware of our need for Him.Now does God foreknow the choice we will make,you bet He does.Don't let this confuse you, I would know full well when my son was a child the choices he would make before he made them,yet the choices were his to make.

 

[Revmitchell]

Cannot find a verse on mans soveriegn freewill...hmmmm

Why dont you try to find one on the trinity. It cant be done. Yet we know and believe in a triune God.

f God is a "perfect gentleman" as you all say, then why would you pray for Him to move in someone's heart to bring them to the point of salvation? Why pray if God is powerless to change someone unless they want Him to?

Let me say first that we should stay away from titles of other men. i.e. Calvin, and arminius. I am in Christ and no one else.(1 Cor 3:1-5)

Your question is more fitting for you than for anyone else. Why would you pray for God to move in someones heart if man has no choice and God is either going to or not?

The answer is found in scripture. Abraham prayed for Sodom and Gamorrah. Moses prayed for the nation of Isreal on numerous occasions. Time after time God repented of his decision as a result of prayer of a man of God that walked close to him.

Election, predestination, Gods' soveriegnty and freewill are believed by those of us that you so rudely refer to as Arminians. It takes the philosophy of man to try to seperate these doctrines and to say that Gods' soveriegnty and mans freewill cannot coexist. The factor that mixes the two is love.

Love has to include the choice of the individual or it is not love. Some say that we can love because God gave us the ability to love. And that is true. But without freewill there is no love. For love is defined by freewill.

What do you do with Adam and Eve? Did they not have freewill? Many of you good folks procalim Gods' soveriegnty in an argument against freewill but argue against eternal security. Where is Gods' soveriegnty in that?

Gods' soveriegnty and mans freewill appear to the natural and the carnal mind to be incapatable. But this is not so in Gods' world. Can it be explained? Not really. But then try to explain where God came from. He came from no where! Because there was no where to come from!

How did God make the universe out of nothing? We cannot know! Resting in the soveriegnty of God means not understanding some things but trusting him anyway.

 

[Timtoolman]

Oooooh that was like spitting into a fan, eh calvi?

 

[quickened1]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Do you pray?

I tried to find a verse that dealt with man's sovereign free will, but I couldn't, so this will have to do.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

If God is a "perfect gentleman" as you all say, then why would you pray for Him to move in someone's heart to bring them to the point of salvation? Why pray if God is powerless to change someone unless they want Him to?

Currently I have 5 students in my teen Sunday School class. 4 have recieved Christ as their saviour. I have been praying for the girl who hasnt. Im praying for the right time and oppurtunity to talk to her. Im praying that the Lord will prepare her heart to recieve the gospel,convict her of sin,convince her that God's word is true,convince her that heaven and hell are real,help her to understand that shes a sinner and the punishment for it,that no amount of works can save her, that her righteousness is as filthy rags but she can trade it in for Christ's righteousness by repenting and recieving him. You never know how far you will have to go or what questions they will ask. I pray the Lord will give me the answers and help her understand them.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Oooooh that was like spitting into a fan, eh calvi?

My question has elicited the response I have expected. We all pray because we believe God is Sovereign and can move. So we ask Him to. If we believed that God had left everyone to their own free-will, then we wouldn't pray. But we do, so, whether we admit it or not, we believe that God is sovereign and can and does over-rule our free-wills.

 

[Timtoolman]

But what if some believe that God controls every thought and deed of man, even to the very pt of sin!? CAn man make God change His mind?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Do you pray?

I tried to find a verse that dealt with man's sovereign free will, but I couldn't, so this will have to do.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

If God is a "perfect gentleman" as you all say, then why would you pray for Him to move in someone's heart to bring them to the point of salvation? Why pray if God is powerless to change someone unless they want Him to?

Is this some kind of a Joke? Revelation 3:20 has NOTHING to do with anyone getting saved—the people in the context of Rev. 3:20 are already saved! Arminian theologians do NOT believe that man has a sovereign free will nor do they deny the sovereignty of God!

 

[Revmitchell]

If we believed that God had left everyone to their own free-will, then we wouldn't pray.

Calvibaptist you make an attempt to characterize us a an agnostic. In other words God wound us up and let us go without his intervention.

No one claims that God has left us to our own freewill. Who said that? But it is possible and true that God can be soveriegn and we can work out of our freewill. In Gods' world this is possible. Love is freewill, sin is freewill, obedience is freewill.

 

[Craigbythesea]

According to John Calvin, God is not sovereign at all but totally in subjection to John Calvin's personal theology that he dug out of a dumpster behind a Wal-Mart store.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
According to John Calvin, God is not sovereign at all but totally in subjection to John Calvin's personal theology that he dug out of a dumpster behind a Wal-Mart store.

I didn't know Wal-Mart dated that far back. Did they have a J. C. Penney's then, too?

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Revmitchell:

Election, predestination, Gods' soveriegnty and freewill are believed by those of us that you so rudely refer to as Arminians. It takes the philosophy of man to try to seperate these doctrines and to say that Gods' soveriegnty and mans freewill cannot coexist. The factor that mixes the two is love.

Love has to include the choice of the individual or it is not love. Some say that we can love because God gave us the ability to love. And that is true. But without freewill there is no love. For love is defined by freewill.

What do you do with Adam and Eve? Did they not have freewill? Many of you good folks procalim Gods' soveriegnty in an argument against freewill but argue against eternal security. Where is Gods' soveriegnty in that?

I posted part of this on another thread.

Plan A, God created a perfect world.

Adam/Eve turned it into a "world of sin"

Plan B, Jesus, dying/resurrected to restore man to a "new world".

Question, "WHY" didn't God's "sovereign will" prevent sin from entering the world, in the first place??

Answer,

Love has to include the choice of the individual or it is not love. Some say that we can love because God gave us the ability to love. And that is true. But without freewill there is no love. For love is defined by freewill.

"Love" can't be "programmed" into an individual, or "Angel", it's a "FREE WILL CHOICE",

each person/Angel on the "New Earth" will have made a free will choice, in order to be there, God doesn't force a person to LOVE or HATE, as predestination dictates.


This earth is a "Wheat field" God planted and Satan tared, Jesus made it possible for every tare to be "transformed" back into wheat at harvest time, "IF" they loved/believed, after which the "field" will be burned and a new earth constructed.

The "FREE WILL CHOICE" of "LOVE" (or hate) is the reason we go through the process of Plan B, before getting back to Plan A.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
According to John Calvin, God is not sovereign at all but totally in subjection to John Calvin's personal theology that he dug out of a dumpster behind a Wal-Mart store.

I didn't know Wal-Mart dated that far back. Did they have a J. C. Penney's then, too? </font>[/QUOTE]Don't you know Noah used his Wal mart card to stock the ark with "animal food"??

of course the "debt" was "washed away", but wouldn't it be nice to know the "day and hour" and have all your "credit card debt"... "rapture away"???

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Is this some kind of a Joke? Revelation 3:20 has NOTHING to do with anyone getting saved—the people in the context of Rev. 3:20 are already saved! Arminian theologians do NOT believe that man has a sovereign free will nor do they deny the sovereignty of God!

[/QB]

And yet, this is the verse that they always use in the context of salvation. That is why I quoted it, because THEY use it that way. They believe man has a sovereign free will in that it overrules the sovereignty of God in many areas. If God is at the mercy of man's choice, man's choice, by default, is sovereign.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Is this some kind of a Joke? Revelation 3:20 has NOTHING to do with anyone getting saved—the people in the context of Rev. 3:20 are already saved! Arminian theologians do NOT believe that man has a sovereign free will nor do they deny the sovereignty of God!

And yet, this is the verse that they always use in the context of salvation. That is why I quoted it, because THEY use it that way. They believe man has a sovereign free will in that it overrules the sovereignty of God in many areas. If God is at the mercy of man's choice, man's choice, by default, is sovereign. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]This is nothing but fictitious nonsense. Not one word of it is true. Before you keep posting misinformation on a Christian message board, I suggest that you either read the writings of James Arminius or a systematic theology by an Arminian theologian. I also suggest that you carefully study several commentaries written by Arminian theologians on each book of the Bible, especially The Epistle to the Romans in the New Testament.

Many people come to the Baptist Board seeking for truth—I suggest that you start posting some of it. To help you get started in your studies, I recommend a very careful reading of the following works:

Wiley, H. Orton. Christian Theology. Kansas City, MO: Beacon Hill Press, 1940. This is an excellent three volume work by a prominent Church of the Nazarene theologian.

Carter, Charles W. Carter, editor. A contemporary Wesleyan Theology: Biblical, Systematic, and Practical. Grand Rapids: Francis Asbury Press, 1983. This is an excellent two volume work contributed to by twenty-three theologians representing seven denominations of the Wesleyan persuasion.

Sanday, William, and Arthur C. Headlam. A Critical and Exegetical Commentary of The Epistle to the Romans, Fifth Edition. Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1902. This is one of the finest Arminian commentaries on Romans ever produced in the English language and it therefore remained continuously in print for more than 100 years (1898-2004).

 

[saturneptune]

Craigbythesea,
It is hard enough to decide where to come out on this issue without your babbling rants. There are very thoughtful posts here and in other threads for calvinism and free will, and I appreciate them. However, your are on both sides of the issue, outside the issue, and quite frankly, it appears you have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe your energy would be better served by using that hot air to drive a wind mill so someone could at least get the benefit of electricity from your hot air.

 

[Humblesmith]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
According to John Calvin, God is not sovereign at all but totally in subjection to John Calvin's personal theology that he dug out of a dumpster behind a Wal-Mart store.

This is not AT ALL fair to Calvin. I certainly don't hold to all of what Calvin taught, but it's not fair to take a man's life work and drag it through the mud. Calvin wrote many volumes...a 22 volume commentary on the bible, plus many other books. He came along at a time in church history when we needed a careful theologian. So I humbly suggest that you read Calvin in context....(not calvinism, but Calvin himself).

Much of what has given Calvin a bad name has been his followers who took the teachings further than their mentor. Ditto with Arminius.

 

[Humblesmith]

Sitting here studying for tomorrow, and found these two verses, and thought of this thread.

“Come now, let us reason together,”
says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the best from the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword.”
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.


Always note who is causing the action in scripture....it's very revealing. I certainly see self-caused action in 19 and 20.

 

[Humblesmith]

And the same God, in the same chapter, says:

Therefore the Lord, the Lord Almighty,
the Mighty One of Israel, declares:
“Ah, I will get relief from my foes
and avenge myself on my enemies.
25 I will turn my hand against you;
I will thoroughly purge away your dross
and remove all your impurities.
26 I will restore your judges as in days of old,
your counselors as at the beginning.
Afterward you will be called
the City of Righteousness,
the Faithful City.”


Again, note who is causing the action...it's very revealing. I certainly see unilatereral action from God, working out his plan in people, with no council from the people he was working on.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Revmitchell:
Love is freewill, sin is freewill, obedience is freewill.

Okay, prove it. Show us that you have the free will to be 100% obedient, 100% of the time from now until the rest of your life. If it's a choice, and you say you have the free will to make that choice, so make the choice and stick to it no matter what. I'm not just talking about actions. Remember, if you even look at a woman with lust in your heart, you will have as much as commited adultery with her, so no looking and lusting.

You don't have to worry about, that, though, because you can decide of your own free will not to feel any temptation. After all, obedience is free will, right?