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Question for free willers

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by npetreley, Mar 28, 2006.

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  1. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Pick an unbeliever. Any unbeliever. If you have a hard time thinking of one, try Ted Turner. He's an unbeliever (at least he is as of today, as far as I know).

    Please answer these two questions. Please be specific.

    1. What is the difference between you and the unbeliever such that you chose to trust Christ and the unbeliever did not?

    2. Who made that difference?

    PREDICTIONS:

    Prediction 1. People will fall back to "We chose differently because we had the free will to choose differently."

    This is not an answer. People choose things for a reason. You choose vanilla because you prefer vanilla. My question is the equivalent of: Why do you prefer vanilla, and why does the other person dislike vanilla and prefer chocolate? What makes the difference between you two such that you prefer different flavors? And who made that difference?

    Prediction 2. Even if they understand the questions, no free willer will ever post a straight answer.
     
    #1 npetreley, Mar 28, 2006
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    They will proclaim prevenient grace.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #2 Joseph_Botwinick, Mar 28, 2006
  3. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    I say the answer is prevenient grace! [​IMG]
     
    #3 Timtoolman, Mar 28, 2006
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    #4 Joseph_Botwinick, Mar 28, 2006
  5. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    See Joseph's link. Prevenient grace is not an answer. It just pushes the problem back in time.

    Even with prevenient grace, the questions remain, what is the difference between you and the person who chooses differently than you do?

    And who made that difference?
     
    #5 npetreley, Mar 28, 2006
  6. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    Not getting back on that horse, Npet. I think that has been answered over and over too. You just don't like the answer. Sorry for butting in I was trying to be funny.
     
    #6 Timtoolman, Mar 28, 2006
  7. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Ted Turner hardened his heart.

    God hardened Ted Turner's heart.
     
    #7 James_Newman, Mar 28, 2006
  8. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Are we there yet??? [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #8 Brother Bob, Mar 28, 2006
  9. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    Read the link is the same old same old(nicely written though). It does not destroy my understanding of how God's Spirit convicts and then indwells. Free will is still the answer and the proof is right before you. This questions just re-inforces free will. It shows it, promotes it and proves it. I would try to find another hobby horse to ride.
     
    #9 Timtoolman, Mar 28, 2006
  10. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Why does one freely will to repent and believe while another does not? Could one who does not freely will to repent and believe have freely chosen differently had he been born under different circumstances?
     
    #10 whatever, Mar 28, 2006
  11. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I told you we wouldn't get any real answers.
     
    #11 npetreley, Mar 28, 2006
  12. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Satan offer me all the things of this world,

    Jesus offer me all the things of "His world",

    "I" "BELIEVED JESUS" and took him up on his offer, so Jesus confessed me before God and God gave me all the things of "His world".


    Ro 6:16 Know ye not,

    that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey,

    his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

    whether of sin unto death,

    or of obedience unto righteousness?

    Jos 24:15 CHOOSE...."YOU".... this day whom ye will serve;
     
    #12 Me4Him, Mar 28, 2006
  13. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I am not a free-willer but according to your description I guess I am. My home church would fall over if they knew they were being called Freewills. Do you think we just choose or do anything on our own? No, God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit is always trying to get men to repent, we just take heed to the calling and choose to come to Christ. "Come unto me all ye ends of the earth and be ye saved".

    We or you, can't even breathe without The Lord. Our very existance is because of him. We are all God's children by creation, both saint and sinner, but we must be born again, not of a corruptle seed but by an incorruptle.


    KJMatt.22
    "12": And he saith unto him, Friend , how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

    "13": Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth

    Adam was God's son but he chose to disobey Him.

    Why did He say, "preach the gospel to ever creature".


    On and on.
     
    #13 Brother Bob, Mar 28, 2006
  14. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist New Member

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    I thought it was pretty funny Tim!
     
    #14 Calvibaptist, Mar 28, 2006
  15. BroShane

    BroShane New Member

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    Is this like a card trick?
     
    #15 BroShane, Mar 28, 2006
  16. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist New Member

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    OK. So, we have had a few answers from what we would call "free-willers." So far the answers have been: 1)Ted Turner hardened his heart, 2)The answer is Free Will, 3)I believed Jesus and took Him up on His offer, 4)We take heed to the calling and choose to come.

    What all of these answers fail to do is answer the question in the original post. We know that some choose and some don't. We know that some harden their hearts and some don't. We know that some believe and some don't. We know that some take heed and some don't.

    The question is WHY? Why did you choose and Ted Turner has not? Why did you take heed and Ted Turner has not? Why did you soften your heart to the gospel and Ted Turner hardened his heart? WHY? WHY? WHY? Not what? Why?
     
    #16 Calvibaptist, Mar 28, 2006
  17. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Like I said, Calvi. Free willers will never give a straight answer to this question.
     
    #17 npetreley, Mar 28, 2006
  18. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Let's get right down to why free willers can't give a straight answer to this question. As far as I can see, there is very limited range of possible answers that support free will.


    1. The difference is that I was somehow more inclined to choose rightly than the other person.

    Okay, no problem with that one, yet. The problem is when you try to explain WHY you were more inclined.


    2a. I made the difference. I had something the other person lacked, whether it be an attitude, knowledge, enlightenment, openness, intelligence, wisdom, etc. This is the only honest answer a free willer can give and still stick with free will. To me be the glory, for I was the turning point of my own salvation.

    Unfortunately, the Bible answer to the question "For who made one to differ from another?" is God. So this answer, though honest from the perspective of the free willer, is wrong. When you make the answer right, you end up with election, not free will. If God makes one person differ from another, and that difference is responsible for one person choosing rightly, and another person choosing wrongly, then what you have is salvation by God's election, not by your own free will.


    2b. Environment. (I was raised differently, I had different life experiences, etc.)

    This basically attributes to "good luck" your condition of being more inclined than the next person. Although I do recall one person claiming this was the case, I don't think the average free willer is about to attribute his or her salvation to having been lucky enough to have grown up in the right environment, having been lucky enough to have lived through the right good or bad experiences that shaped him/her toward being more inclined, etc.

    Now, this is palatable if you say that God was in control of your environment and circumstances. That takes the random chance out of it. But if you say that God was in control, then you have said that God chose to make your environment more favorable to the right choice than another person's environment. Once again, that's called salvation by God's election, not by your own free will.

    --------------

    If you free willers have better answers, I'm dying to hear them.
     
    #18 npetreley, Mar 28, 2006
  19. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    By the way, it was precisely this problem that converted me from free will to election. I tried desperately to write an apologetics piece that explored all these factors (a person's attributes, environment, life experiences). But every time I reached for the Bible for support, I got the same answer. Everything traces back to God. Needless to say, I couldn't finish that apologetics piece.
     
    #19 npetreley, Mar 28, 2006
  20. BroShane

    BroShane New Member

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    The verse you quote is:

    I Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

    The full meaning of this verse comes from it's context, but is especially spelled out in verse 6, "And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another." - emphasis mine

    The emphasis here is not salvation but, rather, the attitudes of the Corinthian believers towards one another and towards Paul. Note this in veses 18 and 19:

    "Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you. [19] But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power."

    The point Paul is making is that fine speech and much talking does not make any believer better than another, and that the "... kingdom of God is not in word, but in power." (V 20) In short, the realtionship that is the point of these verses is that of believer to another believer in reverence to God.

    It is not talking about salvation, election, predestination, free will, or any other thing this thread supposedly is supposed to be about.
     
    #20 BroShane, Mar 28, 2006
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