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Question for non-Calvinists

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by FERRON BRIMSTONE, Aug 26, 2006.

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  1. FERRON BRIMSTONE

    FERRON BRIMSTONE New Member

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    What is meant by 'chosen' in Mathew 20:16 and 22:14

    Mat 20:16 "Thus the last shall be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few are chosen."

    Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

    ESV
     
    #1 FERRON BRIMSTONE, Aug 26, 2006
  2. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    should of ask the Calvinists

    1. many are called but few chosen

    2. Calvinist say whoever are called, is predestinated, justified and Glorified.

    3. non-Calvinist say all are called but only those who believe are chosen. (iIf I be lifted up I will draw all men)
     
    #2 Brother Bob, Aug 26, 2006
  3. FERRON BRIMSTONE

    FERRON BRIMSTONE New Member

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    Brother Bob

    Called and Elect are not the same thing. The Elect are the chosen, the call goes out to everyone, but not everyone that is called will be saved only the elect or chosen.

    To say that we are chosen because we believe is an oxymoron.
     
    #3 FERRON BRIMSTONE, Aug 26, 2006
  4. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Not according to the Scriptures. Glad to see you believed He called everyone though!

    Rom 8:30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
    This is why this scripture is after a person believes. God is timeless and sees who believes so He knows who to predestinated to be comformed to the image of His son, also to call and justify and to Glorify. All based on "belief".


    "15": And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

    Mark: 16
    "16": He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Eph; 1
    "13": In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    John: 8
    "21": Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

    "22": Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

    "23": And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

    "24": I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


    Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not

    perish, but have eternal life.

    Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that

    through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive

    remission of sins.

    Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a

    stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever

    believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God : :D
     
    #4 Brother Bob, Aug 26, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2006
  5. Blammo

    Blammo New Member

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    It means that the we have been commanded to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. (many called)

    And, he who believes shall be saved. (chosen)
     
    #5 Blammo, Aug 26, 2006
  6. FERRON BRIMSTONE

    FERRON BRIMSTONE New Member

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    Of course I believe God calls everyone to repentance-

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


    Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!


    The freewill of Man is clearly taught in Scripture. But so is Gods sovereignty.



    John 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."


    John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.




    After sin was introduced, and God entered the garden looking for Adam, what did Adam do?

    Genesis 3:10 So he said, "I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself."

    He hid, and Man has been hiding from God ever since.

    Revelation 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

    We will not come to God on our own, even though we have the freewill to do so. Rather we run from God and the acknowledgement of our sins.

    God desires that all of us would come to him, but none of us will come on our own. So God does not choose who will go to hell, we choose hell ourselves. The problem is without God calling us and convicting us of our sins, we will continue in them, thus rejecting God and deserving hell.

    Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

    The existence of the World and all that is in it is clear evidence of God, yet we will not come to him without him initiating the call by placing conviction and guilt on our hearts. Therefore God Chooses some of us, for his own Divine reasons and through no merit of our own, to bring to him.


    Matthew 20:16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."


    Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

    Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.


    This is the reason that Man is responsible if he goes to hell, but God deserves all the credit for salvation.
     
    #6 FERRON BRIMSTONE, Aug 26, 2006
  7. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Hello Bob,

    Lets look at the details

    You are right in that context demands the word "call" to mean election. But this passage as all passages that speak of election tells why. "HIS PURPOSE"

    Agree. We should do this, for we are told to do this and election is not about us, but about Gods purpose. However election itself is not covered in this verse

    All must believe to be saved. But this is not election.

    Election is not addressed in this verse

    This is not election/choosen


    This is not election/choosen

    This is not election/choosen

    Not election/choosen

    Not election.
     
    #7 Jarthur001, Aug 26, 2006
  8. FERRON BRIMSTONE

    FERRON BRIMSTONE New Member

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    Brother Bob and Blammo;

    Now that you understand my position, please explain the meaning of the word 'chosen' based on Scripture. Who does the choosing? Scripture says God does. But you seem to be saying man does and God says 'ok'.

    Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.

    Mat 20:16 "Thus the last shall be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few are chosen."

    Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
     
    #8 FERRON BRIMSTONE, Aug 26, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2006
  9. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    The Bible is clear. God does the choosing.
     
    #9 Jarthur001, Aug 26, 2006
  10. FERRON BRIMSTONE

    FERRON BRIMSTONE New Member

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    Thanks Jarthur
     
    #10 FERRON BRIMSTONE, Aug 26, 2006
  11. Blammo

    Blammo New Member

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    I believe that God first chooses us. I agree that scripture clearly teaches this. But, you must remember, election is according to foreknowledge. What do you make of that? Does foreknowlede mean we are all part of a great puppet show? Or does it mean God sees all things play out before we do? Or does it mean that God is outside of time and sees all things now?

    I also believe the following quote by FERRON. (Except for the "choosing hell" part. Nobody would knowingly choose hell, dead in sins or not. I would change that to "choosing their own way", which, unbeknownst to them, leads to hell.)

    And, I believe that God saw me feeling lost and helpless on a certain night 20 years ago, and He caused me to remember all of the gospel preaching I had pridefully rejected so many times before that night. He caught me when I was humble, He chose me that night. Even though He had chosen me in him before the foundation of the world.

    Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Just, as this verse says "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" does not mean it actually happened before creation, the Lamb was actually slain 2000 years ago, and, even though, as scripture says, I was chosen in him before the foundation of the world, it actually happened 20 years ago. It does not mean scripture is wrong, it just explains foreknowledge.
     
    #11 Blammo, Aug 27, 2006
  12. FERRON BRIMSTONE

    FERRON BRIMSTONE New Member

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    Blammo,

    Thanks for your testimony, I appreciate that.

    As for as foreknowledge, I do not believe God chooses us because He knows what we will do. That gets back to we choose and God says 'ok'. The Bible is clear that God draws us to Him.

    I do believe that God has knowledge of all things past, present and future, as the Scripture you referred to teaches. But to say God chooses us based on that knowledge puts us back in the drivers seat. Gods choice must be according to his divine will, not based on anything we deserve, earn or otherwise merit.

    What I meant by 'choose hell' is that by rejecting God our other choice is hell by default. However I have had people tell me that they knew they were going to hell and refused to repent.
     
    #12 FERRON BRIMSTONE, Aug 27, 2006
  13. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Why does He choose them?

    Have you ever considered belief?
     
    #13 Brother Bob, Aug 27, 2006
  14. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    2 Peter, chapter 1
    5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
    6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
    7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
    8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
    10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
    Mark: 16
    "16": He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    All must believe to be saved. But this is not election.

    How many different ways are there to be saved. I thought Salvation is of the Lord?
     
    #14 Brother Bob, Aug 27, 2006
  15. thjplgvp

    thjplgvp Member

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    "But, you must remember, election is according to foreknowledge. What do you make of that?"

    In another post 'questions for calvinists' I was instructed that election was not based on foreknowledge. That God elects apart from any knowledge of what man will or will not do in the future. It is unconditional on God's but conditional on mans part (he must believe).

    So I ask agian is election based on foreknowledge or not? Both parties cannot be right.

    thjplgvp
     
    #15 thjplgvp, Aug 27, 2006
  16. FERRON BRIMSTONE

    FERRON BRIMSTONE New Member

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    His own divine will, no one deserves Gods forgiveness, it only through his divine grace and mercy.

    Yes, read my previous posts on this thread, I don't won't to bore the others by repeating myself. We do have to believe and submit to him as Lord, but we will not. God has to draw us to him through conviction.



    I just posted on foreknowledge on this thread a few minutes ago, you probably didnt have time to read it yet, take a look, maybe it will help you understand my position.
     
    #16 FERRON BRIMSTONE, Aug 27, 2006
  17. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    "if I be lifted up, I will draw all men". Is this what you mean?
     
    #17 Brother Bob, Aug 27, 2006
  18. FERRON BRIMSTONE

    FERRON BRIMSTONE New Member

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    John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. KJV


    John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
    ESV


    John 12:32 And I, if and when I am lifted up from the earth [on the cross], will draw and attract all men [Gentiles as well as Jews] to Myself. AMPLIFIED


    John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” NKJV

    Brother Bob, I am not sure which translation you are using but 'men' should be in italics. This means that it was not part of the original text. In other words it was added for clarity. The correct translation would be peoples or nations. In other words not all "men" are saved, but men from every nation will be.
     
    #18 FERRON BRIMSTONE, Aug 27, 2006
  19. 2BHizown

    2BHizown New Member

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    According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Eph 1:4

    His choice of us could hardly be due to 'belief' when he chose us before the foundation of the world!

    ...the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not or works, but of him that calleth. Rom 9:11

    This clearly shows that we were chosen before the foundation of the world. Then in time he regenerated our heart to seek him, come to him in faith, and we did exactly that.

    However, as clearly shown in the book of Obadiah, he continued angry with Esau(Edom) and his wrath will be shown to those who do not obey his word and come to him! God is sovereign in his choices, yet man is responsible for his actions!
     
    #19 2BHizown, Aug 27, 2006
  20. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    God is outside of time. What does "from the foundation of the world have to do with it?"
     
    #20 Brother Bob, Aug 27, 2006
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