Question of Revelation and Galatians, OSAS

[Briguy]

Hi Bob, I'll pick one of the scriptures you posted and get a response to you later.

I wanted to say on the current argument that the dog and the pig were saved and lost is just not true. A dog and pig were not kind terms to use when the scriptures were written. There is no way that a saved person would be referenced by those 2 animals. They were extremely negative terms. Plus, the dog remains a dog and the pig a pig. A saved person is transformed to something new and so would not be a dog or a pig anymore. The point is that is being made is that it will be worse on the day of judgement for those who knew the Truth and never responded. If 2 people are starving and one can see an apple but can't reach it he will be more anxious the then the other and more upset. The they here is the same they as in the parable of the sower. The they are the hard soil with no root. Christ exites them, they see the peace, they feel the good but they never acknowledge their sin and get forgiven. Cutter used some very good scripture to drive the pint home that the second state is worse then the first state. There is only one "lost" but there is more then one type of agony in being "lost".

In Christ,
Brian

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Originally Posted by BobRyan


Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."



in Christ,

Bob

2Pe 2:20-22. Although these three verses are often used to prove that OSAS is not true, it actually teaches that it is true.

The context is false teachers who promote damnable heresies and deny the Lord (v. 1). It should be clear that it is not those that are saved who are the subject in this passage, but hypocrites and deceivers. Any interpretation which says these are saved men who lose their salvation denies the context. The fact that "the latter end is worse with them than the beginning" and "it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness" does not suggest that they were saved and now are lost. They were dogs and pigs who were unchanged (v. 22). The fact that they return to their iniquities proves that they were never saved. When the context is taken into account, there really is no problem in this passage in regard to the doctrine of eternal security.

 

[Amy.G]

2Pe 2:21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.


1Jo 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

It seems to me that someone who turns away for the commandment to believe, has certainly not believed, and is not saved and never was saved.

 

[steaver]

Peter is very clear about this.

Any time your doctrinal bias forces you to spin the Gospel around when IT speaks of "having ESCAPED the defilement of the sinful world through the knowledge of Christ" into "just another LOST condition" you have a glaring red flag indicating your doctrinal error.

How could this POSSIBLY be missed??

How steeped in man-made tradition does one have to be to "not notice that"???

in Christ,

Bob

Peter is very clear, it is you brother who is missing the message. Cutter nailed this one out of the park. The evil spirit could not re-enter if the Holy Spirit was present and we know that those who receive the Holy Spirit are sealed (Eph 4:30) until the day of redemption! Praise Jesus!

One can "escape the defilements of this world" by following the knowledge of Jesus Christ yet never be born-again. This is prevelant in all congregations. One can play church, follow Christ's moral teachings, but never receive Christ as Savior and then stop and return to the mud again. Examples are given in the scriptures....2Ti 4:10For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.


1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

The context is false teachers who promote damnable heresies and deny the Lord (v. 1). It should be clear that it is not those that are saved who are the subject in this passage, but hypocrites and deceivers. Any interpretation which says these are saved men who lose their salvation denies the context. The fact that "the latter end is worse with them than the beginning" and "it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness" does not suggest that they were saved and now are lost. They were dogs and pigs who were unchanged (v. 22). The fact that they return to their iniquities proves that they were never saved. When the context is taken into account, there really is no problem in this passage in regard to the doctrine of eternal security.

Another home run! The score is two-zip brother (Bob). But I suspect you will not accept contextual arguments and will continue on in your beliefs.

God Bless! :thumbsup:

 

[steaver]

Originally Posted by BobRyan


Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."



in Christ,

Bob

(Originally posted by Cutter)

Luke 11-26 Then goeth he, and taketh [to him] seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first.

The "best argument to date" has been refuted! Will Bob now embrace OSAS?

God Bless! :tongue3:

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob, I'll pick one of the scriptures you posted and get a response to you later.

I wanted to say on the current argument that the dog and the pig were saved and lost is just not true. A dog and pig were not kind terms to use when the scriptures were written. There is no way that a saved person would be referenced by those 2 animals.

There is no way that a lost person can be "condemned" for failure to "persevere in being lost".

You are arguing that we should stand these texts on their head in order to spare OSAS.

Simply can't be done.

The negative images are in context with their final action "A dog returning to it's vomit" showing that the final action of failure to persever in REMAINING saved -- but there is no such thing as a "warning aginst failing to persevre in being lost"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The "best argument to date" has been refuted! Will Bob now embrace OSAS?

God Bless! :tongue3:

#1. Luke is not exegeting 2Peter 2 - and neither did Cutter.
#2. Luke is speaking of someone who IS divinely freed from sin and slavery to satan - and then returns -- game over for OSAS.:type:

But thank you for playing:thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Peter is very clear, it is you brother who is missing the message. Cutter nailed this one out of the park. The evil spirit could not re-enter if the Holy Spirit was present and we know that those who receive the Holy Spirit are sealed (Eph 4:30) until the day of redemption! Praise Jesus!

You are using a circular argument to prove OSAS.

1. Evil spirits can ONLY be cast out by the H.S so the one in Luke MUST be filled with the H.S that is the only way to GET to the CLEAN state.

2. Since we ASSUME OSAS is true then one filled by the H.S (as evidenced by HIS casting out Satan) then the rescued soul CAN NEVER be taken over by Satan again since no matter what they choose we still ASSUME OSAS remains true.

3. Luke says the person is once again filled with demons so as OSAS-believers we assume now that the demons were not cast out by the H.S but by someone else (Same charge that the Jews made against Christ) and we know this because we first assume that OSAS is true and that this ("repossession") can not happen due to CHOICE of one leaving Christ after being cleansed. Or else we assume Luke was lying when he said they WERE cast out and the house swept clean -- (we would only assume that as OSAS-believers of course)

Your circular self-conflicted argument above is noted -- and it fails miserably.

One can "escape the defilements of this world" by following the knowledge of Jesus Christ yet never be born-again.

That is "another gospel".

You might as well be arguing for your previous self-conflicted point as leap off of that cliff. Why not just choose one? Why do both?!!:type:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Basically after looking at that recent exchange you have to ask yourself this question - with so little to support it -- how does OSAS survive at all??? Who would fall for it?

 

[steaver]

Basically after looking at that recent exchange you have to ask yourself this question - with so little to support it -- how does OSAS survive at all??? Who would fall for it?

Those who believe as Paul......."I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day". I am in good company! :tongue3:

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

1. Evil spirits can ONLY be cast out by the H.S so the one in Luke MUST be filled with the H.S that is the only way to GET to the CLEAN state.

This is an opinion and it is refuted by scripture itself.......

.......for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:39

You will need to amend your "theory".

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

2. Since we ASSUME OSAS is true then one filled by the H.S (as evidenced by HIS casting out Satan) then the rescued soul CAN NEVER be taken over by Satan again since no matter what they choose we still ASSUME OSAS remains true.

3. Luke says the person is once again filled with demons so as OSAS-believers we assume now that the demons were not cast out by the H.S but by someone else (Same charge that the Jews made against Christ) and we know this because we first assume that OSAS is true and that this ("repossession") can not happen due to CHOICE of one leaving Christ after being cleansed. Or else we assume Luke was lying when he said they WERE cast out and the house swept clean -- (we would only assume that as OSAS-believers of course)

Your circular self-conflicted argument above is noted -- and it fails miserably.

Points 2 & 3 fail as well because point 1 failed miserably! Try again brother.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[standingfirminChrist]

You are using a circular argument to prove OSAS.

1. Evil spirits can ONLY be cast out by the H.S so the one in Luke MUST be filled with the H.S that is the only way to GET to the CLEAN state.

2. Since we ASSUME OSAS is true then one filled by the H.S (as evidenced by HIS casting out Satan) then the rescued soul CAN NEVER be taken over by Satan again since no matter what they choose we still ASSUME OSAS remains true.

3. Luke says the person is once again filled with demons so as OSAS-believers we assume now that the demons were not cast out by the H.S but by someone else (Same charge that the Jews made against Christ) and we know this because we first assume that OSAS is true and that this ("repossession") can not happen due to CHOICE of one leaving Christ after being cleansed. Or else we assume Luke was lying when he said they WERE cast out and the house swept clean -- (we would only assume that as OSAS-believers of course)

Your circular self-conflicted argument above is noted -- and it fails miserably.




That is "another gospel".

You might as well be arguing for your previous self-conflicted point as leap off of that cliff. Why not just choose one? Why do both?!!:type:

in Christ,

Bob

The Word does not say the person in Luke is saved, only that an evil spirit is cast out. If the person was saved, then the spirits would not have been able to take possession of the man.

A saved man is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will never leave the saved.

 

[BobRyan]

Are you arguing that either the totally depraved person or the devil himself "cast out the demons"??

That is what the Jews tried to argue.

OR are you arguing that God ALONE did it? If so -- then the freedom they had from demon possession was "of God". The escape from sin and demons was "of God" not "manufactured by the sinful nature".

Note: In 2Peter 2 the case is NOT in any way restricted to "demon possession" but I can see why you want to avoid that text.

 

[BobRyan]

This is an opinion and it is refuted by scripture itself.......

.......for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:39

You will need to amend your "theory".

God Bless! :thumbs:

Not given as we see in Acts 1 and 2 BUT ALREADY given as we see in Matt 10 and John 3 PRE Cross!

John 3:3-12 The Holy Spirit was "already given to individuals" John 3:3-12 and Christ scolded the Hebrew Bible teacher Nicodemus for not already knowing of the individual work of the Holy Spirit.

Gen 41:38 – the Holy Spirit was IN Joseph

Ezek 3:24 – the Holy Spirit was IN Ezekiel and ON Ezekiel

Isaiah 63:8-14, HS IN your midst

Ps 51:8-12 – HS working with David just as He does with us today

Is 59:21 – Holy Spirit was upon them, forever promises of the Holy Spirit

Hag 2:5 “My Holy Spirit is abiding IN your midst”

Jer 24:7 “A heart to Know Me”

John 3 – the Work of the Holy Spirit in the New Birth to be known by Jewish Bible Scholars pre-cross.

John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

The attempt to use Luke to solve the OSAS problem in 2Peter 2:20-22 does not work because the OSAS argument is Luke is circular -- as was shown here...

You are using a circular argument to prove OSAS.

1. Evil spirits can ONLY be cast out by the H.S so the one in Luke MUST be filled with the H.S that is the only way to GET to the CLEAN state.

2. Since we ASSUME OSAS is true then one filled by the H.S (as evidenced by HIS casting out Satan) then the rescued soul CAN NEVER be taken over by Satan again since no matter what they choose we still ASSUME OSAS remains true.

3. Luke says the person is once again filled with demons so as OSAS-believers we assume now that the demons were not cast out by the H.S but by someone else (Same charge that the Jews made against Christ) and we know this because we first assume that OSAS is true and that this ("repossession") can not happen due to CHOICE of one leaving Christ after being cleansed. Or else we assume Luke was lying when he said they WERE cast out and the house swept clean -- (we would only assume that as OSAS-believers of course)

Your circular self-conflicted argument above is noted -- and it fails miserably.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Before the cross, in OT times, the Holy Spirit only visited with mankind. After the cross, it indwells the Believer and will never leave the believer, nor forsake the believer.

 

[BobRyan]

Luke 11

18 "If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul.
19 "And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? So they will be your judges.
20 "But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
21 "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed.
22 "But when someone stronger than he attacks him and overpowers him, he takes away from him all his armor on which he had relied and distributes his plunder.
23 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.
24 "When the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and not finding any, it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.'
25 "And when it comes, it finds it swept and put in order.
26 "Then it goes and takes along seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first."

The Word does not say the person in Luke is saved, only that an evil spirit is cast out. If the person was saved, then the spirits would not have been able to take possession of the man.

A saved man is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will never leave the saved.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Bob, just because a evil spirit is cast out of someone, does not mean they are automatically saved.

Luke 11 is not speaking of a saved person.