Question of Revelation and Galatians, OSAS

[BobRyan]

Reading the section in blue --

Luke 11

18 "If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul.
19 "And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? So they will be your judges.
20 "But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
21 "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed.
22 "But when someone stronger than he attacks him and overpowers him, he takes away from him all his armor on which he had relied and distributes his plunder.
23 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.
24 "When the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and not finding any, it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.'
25 "And when it comes, it finds it swept and put in order.
26 "Then it goes and takes along seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first."



Who "attacks Satan and overpowers him" in the Luke 11 example?

Who "sweeps the soul clean and removes all evil setting the house of the soul aright?"

Is it God as Christ said it is - or "someone else"?

Is that state of being clean and having your soul set "in order" the state of total depravity or is it the saved state - the new birth?

Or do you (for the sake of OSAS) imagine a THIRD condition for mankind not as yet mentioned in scripture?

Do you in that "imaginary third condition" also describe it as in 2Peter 2 "ESCAPED the defilements of the world THROUGH the Knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ"??

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back

In your efforts to link Luke 11 with 2Peter 2 you have defined this "third imaginary non-saved state" as

1. FREED from the defilments of the sinful world THROUGH the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2. KNOWING the way of righteousness
3. Having the house of the soul "set in order"
4. Having been freed from evil - freed from all demons

Having this condition SOLELY as the "work of God" as Christ said in Luke 11.

And yet you want to say this is "NOT SAVED" at all - not because any text describes this as 'the LOST state" or as the "totally depraved state" but rather because "OSAS NEEDS IT?".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Bob, if you think having a demon cast out means a person is saved, you don't understand Salvation.

2 Peter 2:20, as I pointed out earlier, does not say a person can lose his or her Salviation. It proves just the opposite.

 

[BobRyan]

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back

In your efforts to link Luke 11 with 2Peter 2 you have defined this "third imaginary non-saved state" as

1. FREED from the defilments of the sinful world THROUGH the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2. KNOWING the way of righteousness
3. Having the house of the soul "set in order"
4. Having been freed from evil - freed from all demons

Having this condition SOLELY as the "work of God" as Christ said in Luke 11.


You keep arguing "this is the lost state" and yet you provide not even one single Bible text that clams that this condition is the lost condition.

Rather what we find repeatedly in scripture is that to FALL from this condition is to be lost.

Question: Since you have given no scripture at all to support your assertion that this condition is that of a lost person - why do you "believe it anyway"?? Why believe that the Bible would ever want to "warn us about falling away from a lost condition"???

Since the Bible warns us from falling from this condition - why do you describe it as "lost" as if the Bible was warning us about the danger of "falling away from being lost"?

Your approach appears to be an "all-for-OSAS" approach no matter what you find in scripture to the contrary.

in Christ,


Bob

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I have not found anything contrary to OSAS except when people twist the Scripture to mean what it doesn't.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back

In your efforts to link Luke 11 with 2Peter 2 you have defined this "third imaginary non-saved state" as

1. FREED from the defilments of the sinful world THROUGH the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2. KNOWING the way of righteousness
3. Having the house of the soul "set in order"
4. Having been freed from evil - freed from all demons

Having this condition SOLELY as the "work of God" as Christ said in Luke 11.


You keep arguing "this is the lost state" and yet you provide not even one single Bible text that clams that this condition is the lost condition.

Rather what we find repeatedly in scripture is that to FALL from this condition is to be lost.

Question: Since you have given no scripture at all to support your assertion that this condition is that of a lost person - why do you "believe it anyway"?? Why believe that the Bible would ever want to "warn us about falling away from a lost condition"???

Since the Bible warns us from falling from this condition - why do you describe it as "lost" as if the Bible was warning us about the danger of "falling away from being lost"?

Your approach appears to be an "all-for-OSAS" approach no matter what you find in scripture to the contrary.

in Christ,


Bob

I haven't provided one Bible text? Apparently you either did not read 2 Peter 2:20-22 in context, nor did you read all the verse references I posted earlier that show eternal life cannot be lost, or you read them with your preconceived notions that they don't mean 'shall never perish'; 'shall also confirm you to the end'; 'present you blameless'; etc.

 

[BobRyan]

I haven't provided one Bible text? Apparently you either did not read 2 Peter 2:20-22 in context, nor did you read all the verse references I posted earlier that show eternal life cannot be lost, or you read them with your preconceived notions that they don't mean 'shall never perish'; 'shall also confirm you to the end'; 'present you blameless'; etc.

SFC - you have to actually read my posts to respond to the point. I keep pointing out that you gave no text at all to show that the condition described by these texts is "the Lost condition".

Here are the attributes again - that you claim for the lost person but provide NO text to show that this is the "lost condition"

In your efforts to link Luke 11 with 2Peter 2 you have defined this "third imaginary non-saved state" as

1. FREED from the defilments of the sinful world THROUGH the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2. KNOWING the way of righteousness
3. Having the house of the soul "set in order"
4. Having been freed from evil - freed from all demons

Having this condition SOLELY as the "work of God" as Christ said in Luke 11.


You keep arguing "this is the lost state" and yet you provide not even one single Bible text that clams that this condition is the lost condition.

I don't insist that you provide a text to support your POV - and I don't mind pointing out the fact that you keep avoiding it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Each time a Bible "warning text" is given you claim it is "warning" of the danger of failing to persevere in "being lost".

As flawed as your approach is - you would think that you would have at least one text to show that these texts really describe the lost condition in the "attributes" given from which one is warned NOT to fall away!

1. FREED from the defilments of the sinful world THROUGH the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2. KNOWING the way of righteousness
3. Having the house of the soul "set in order"
4. Having been freed from evil - freed from all demons



The point seems pretty obvious to me.

What am I missing?

Rather what we find repeatedly in scripture is that to FALL from this condition is to be lost.

Question: Since you have given no scripture at all to support your assertion that this condition is that of a lost person - why do you "believe it anyway"?? Why believe that the Bible would ever want to "warn us about falling away from a lost condition"???

Since the Bible warns us from falling from this condition - why do you describe it as "lost" as if the Bible was warning us about the danger of "falling away from being lost"?

Your approach appears to be an "all-for-OSAS" approach no matter what you find in scripture to the contrary.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I have shown their lost position. You just do not see the truth that they had to have been lost. Jesus gives eternal life and no man can pluck us out of his hand. No man. That includes me. I cannot pluck myself out of the hand of the Lord as far as Salvation goes. My salvation is secure.

Again, I cnallenge you Bob. Try to not believe in the Lord. Did you even try? You claim it is possible for a saved person to stop believing, so prove it. Stop believing.

Until you can prove to me that a person can stop believing, I see no need to continue casting pearls of wisdom only to be trodden under foot of man. Jesus taught eternal life, the Apostles after the cross taught it. That settles it whether you believe it or not.

 

[BobRyan]

I have shown their lost position. You just do not see the truth that they had to have been lost.

You argue that you "need" this to be a description of the lost state - you just never show from scripture that it IS -

In fact INSTEAD of finding scripture declaring this to be the LOST state - we find scripture WARNING us AGAINST falling AWAY from this condition.

1. FREED from the defilments of the sinful world THROUGH the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2. KNOWING the way of righteousness
3. Having the house of the soul "set in order"
4. Having been freed from evil - freed from all demons

Your argument has been to ignore the warning texts entirely and to argue that you feel perfect freedom in bending other texts to the point of OSAS.

When i show you that doing so - only violates these warning texts -- you simply continue to ignore the point.

The unbiased objective reader is going to notice that you are ducking the key point upon which the success of your own arguent hinges.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Cutter]

Reading the section in blue --

Luke 11

18 "If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul.
19 "And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? So they will be your judges.
20 "But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
21 "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed.
22 "But when someone stronger than he attacks him and overpowers him, he takes away from him all his armor on which he had relied and distributes his plunder.
23 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.
24 "When the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and not finding any, it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.'
25 "And when it comes, it finds it swept and put in order.
26 "Then it goes and takes along seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first."



Who "attacks Satan and overpowers him" in the Luke 11 example?

Who "sweeps the soul clean and removes all evil setting the house of the soul aright?"

Is it God as Christ said it is - or "someone else"?

Is that state of being clean and having your soul set "in order" the state of total depravity or is it the saved state - the new birth?

Or do you (for the sake of OSAS) imagine a THIRD condition for mankind not as yet mentioned in scripture?

Do you in that "imaginary third condition" also describe it as in 2Peter 2 "ESCAPED the defilements of the world THROUGH the Knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ"??

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back

In your efforts to link Luke 11 with 2Peter 2 you have defined this "third imaginary non-saved state" as

1. FREED from the defilments of the sinful world THROUGH the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2. KNOWING the way of righteousness
3. Having the house of the soul "set in order"
4. Having been freed from evil - freed from all demons

Having this condition SOLELY as the "work of God" as Christ said in Luke 11.

And yet you want to say this is "NOT SAVED" at all - not because any text describes this as 'the LOST state" or as the "totally depraved state" but rather because "OSAS NEEDS IT?".

in Christ,

Bob

Bro. Bob let's go over this slowly one more time so maybe you can get it.
The lost man in Luke 11 encounters the gospel message. Upon consideration the evil spirit flees because the Holy Spirit convicts him of his sin and begins to deal with him. Instead of inviting Christ into his heart and being born again of the Spirit, (They that have not the Spirit are none of His,) he refuses to call upon the Name of the Lord, i.e. receives it into stony ground, (didn't take root), i.e. the thorns of the flesh choke it, i.e. lets it fall by the wayside where the evil one sends his agents to distract total surrender unto salvation. Whatever the hindrance, whether satan, the world, or himself, the man does not get saved, as evidenced by his house being empty, swept, and garnished. EMPTY MEANS EMPTY! The man never was saved and never got saved, he just reached a condition where he could be saved and refused it. The last state of that man is worst than the first. If you have any experience in the church you no doubt have witnessed this. I've seen people get a dose of do better and the least little thing come along and they return to vomit and the mire and act as if filled by seven demons instead of one. Why is this so hard for you to understand and why do you refuse to see this?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Cutter, if he admits to the truth that the man in Luke 11 was never saved, he will have to cede to the greater truth that one cannot lose one's Salvation.

 

[Cutter]

Cutter, if he admits to the truth that the man in Luke 11 was never saved, he will have to cede to the greater truth that one cannot lose one's Salvation.

True SFIC. Some people have to be drug into the truth kickin' and screamin'.

 

[BobRyan]

I have not found anything contrary to OSAS except when people twist the Scripture to mean what it doesn't.

So far your method has been to completely ignore the texts that have been mentioned here that debunk OSAS.

Matt 18,
Ezek 18
Romans 11
John 15
2Peter 2:20-22
etc...

You simply give them a nod and then you claim that they don't mean what they appear to say - then you completely abandon all efforts to show that your claim has substance IN those texts that OSAS needs to "spin" in order to survive the test of scripture. You do this by going to other texts that do not explicitly oppose OSAS in the way these do.

Question: What false doctrine could NOT be clung to using such methods?

Answer: None? you would have absolute freedom to embrace any false doctrine at all using such a method.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said -
Each time a Bible "warning text" is given you claim it is "warning" of the danger of failing to persevere in "being lost".

As flawed as your approach is - you would think that you would have at least one text to show that these texts really describe the lost condition in the "attributes" given from which one is warned NOT to fall away!

1. FREED from the defilments of the sinful world THROUGH the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2. KNOWING the way of righteousness
3. Having the house of the soul "set in order"
4. Having been freed from evil - freed from all demons



The point seems pretty obvious to me.

What am I missing?

Rather what we find repeatedly in scripture is that to FALL from this condition is to be lost.

Question: Since you have given no scripture at all to support your assertion that this condition is that of a lost person - why do you "believe it anyway"?? Why believe that the Bible would ever want to "warn us about falling away from a lost condition"???

I have shown their lost position. You just do not see the truth that they had to have been lost.

Matt 18,
Ezek 18
Romans 11
John 15
2Peter 2:20-22
etc...


Please post a link or even a quote where you spend ANY time at all IN THESE texts and SHOW that the conditions listed above (from which they FALL) is the condition of "being lost".

In other words - although it is clear that OSAS NEEDS this to be spun around into a warning to the LOST about falling away from BEING LOSt - (and we can all see that much clearly) -- you have yet to SHOW that in the texts themselves this description of their steadfast upright conditions (FROM which they fall) is said to be the LOST condition.

1. FREED from the defilments of the sinful world THROUGH the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2. KNOWING the way of righteousness
3. Having the house of the soul "set in order"
4. Having been freed from evil - freed from all demons



The point seems pretty obvious to me.

What am I missing?

Rather what we find repeatedly in scripture is that to FALL from this condition is to be lost.

SFIC
Until you can prove to me that a person can stop believing, I see no need to continue casting pearls of wisdom

Clearly you are "gaming the topic" by selecting THIS response above as your answer when asked to post EVEN ONE text showing this condition listed above to be called the "Lost condition" in scripture.

This is an interesting response to the oft repeated challenge that you make some effort to SHOW in the text that debunk OSAS - that your speculation in that area has any Biblical support at all.

It is left as an exercise for the reader to observe that so far SFIC has not even ONE text showing that this state is "the lost state" according to scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[standingfirminChrist]

So, you admit once a person places their trust in the Lord they cannot stop believing in Him?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

So far your method has been to completely ignore the texts that have been mentioned here that debunk OSAS.

Matt 18,
Ezek 18
Romans 11
John 15
2Peter 2:20-22
etc...

You simply give them a nod and then you claim that they don't mean what they appear to say - then you completely abandon all efforts to show that your claim has substance IN those texts that OSAS needs to "spin" in order to survive the test of scripture. You do this by going to other texts that do not explicitly oppose OSAS in the way these do.

Question: What false doctrine could NOT be clung to using such methods?

Answer: None? you would have absolute freedom to embrace any false doctrine at all using such a method.

in Christ,

Bob

One who is born again will not embrace false doctrine, BR. The Holy Spirit will guide that one int truth, not error.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (John 16:13)

 

[BobRyan]

One who is born again will not embrace false doctrine, BR. The Holy Spirit will guide that one int truth, not error.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (John 16:13)

This is another area where we do not agree. I believe we have born-again Christians among Lutherans, Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians etc --

But obviously they do not all share the same set of doctrines. The reason is not that the Holy Spirit leads them into false doctrine - the reason is that their own man-made-traditions and sinful nature leads them to accept false doctrines and blinds them to the fact that they are doing it.

My argument for using actual Biblical exegesis to solve problems rather than simply avoiding problem texts for your POV - is that the only way false doctrine survives is by the human tendancy to avoid objective exegetical study of the bible texts that most directly confront man-made traditions.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bobryan said
It is left as an exercise for the reader to observe that so far SFIC has not even ONE text showing that this state is "the lost state" according to scripture.

So, you admit once a person places their trust in the Lord they cannot stop believing in Him?

If that is directed toward me - it appears to be a nonsequitter

 

[steaver]

(BobRyan)....Not given as we see in Acts 1 and 2 BUT ALREADY given as we see in Matt 10 and John 3 PRE Cross!

Your explanation of John 7:39 is totally unscriptural. The gift of the Holy Spirit Jesus spoke of IS Living Water (Jn 4:10) . Living water is eternal life (Jn 4:14) . Living Water is the Holy Spirit (Jn 7:39)

(Jn 7:38) "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

(Jn 7:39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

You cannot twist this into any other fact. The Spirit and the Living Water in this specific passage is one in the same. The scripture is crystal clear that this Living Water/Holy Spirit was not yet given. There is no way, unless you wish to ignore this passage that those who believed prior to Jesus' glorification could have already received this gift of the Holy Spirit/Living Water. For you to say "Not given as we see in Acts 1 and 2 BUT ALREADY given as we see in Matt 10 and John 3 PRE Cross!" is totally perverting God's word in this passage.

There is no possible way according to John 7:38-39 that anyone prior to Jesus' glorification had received this Holy Spirit/Living Water. You can go on and on in disbelief but to do so is to blantantly reject God's crystal clear Word in John 7:38-39. Living Water/HolySprit WAS NOT YET GIVEN to those who BELIEVETH ON JESUS pre-glorification!

THERE IS NO WAY AROUND THIS! You can point all day long to scripture after scripture, "but, but, but" , and all that shows is that you do not understand alot of other scripture! Adjust your mind to Christ, do not try to adjust such clear scripture as John 7:38-39 for the sake of being right. Are we not in persuit of the Truth? Why reject such clear words? Is being right more important than God's Truth shining forth? Think brother! Think!


God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[standingfirminChrist]

This is another area where we do not agree. I believe we have born-again Christians among Lutherans, Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians etc --

But obviously they do not all share the same set of doctrines. The reason is not that the Holy Spirit leads them into false doctrine - the reason is that their own man-made-traditions and sinful nature leads them to accept false doctrines and blinds them to the fact that they are doing it.

My argument for using actual Biblical exegesis to solve problems rather than simply avoiding problem texts for your POV - is that the only way false doctrine survives is by the human tendancy to avoid objective exegetical study of the bible texts that most directly confront man-made traditions.

in Christ,

Bob

One cannot get saved and remain in bondage to false doctrines, BR. The Holy Spirit will guide them into all truth as Jesus has promised. To say they can get saved and remain under the teaching of false doctrines is questioning God's Word.

Wherefore, come out from amongst them and be ye separate saith the Lord; touch not the unclean thing and I will receive you.

If they do not feel the Spirit pulling them out of the false religions of this world, then they probably do not have the Spirit in the firest place.