Question of Revelation and Galatians, OSAS

[BobRyan]

Never-the-less it is up to each one of us to be Biblically honest enough to post exegetically sound Biblical support for claims that are made.

If I am to claim that John chapter 1 teaches a doctrine on the trinity then I am obligated to SHOW IN the text just WHERE this happens and why that view is the best exegetically sound interpretation of the chapter.

Simply tossing in a "it does not mean what it appears to say" and then going to some other text that makes it appear that Christ is not really God -- is not good Bible study -- not even remotely.

We can not use such methods in John 1 and we can not use them in Ezek 18.

That does not change.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Never-the-less it is up to each one of us to be Biblically honest enough to post exegetically sound Biblical support for claims that are made.

So, when are you going to start?

 

[steaver]

So, when are you going to start?

:thumbs:

BobRyan, could you explain how those who believed pre-glorification of Christ had the Living Water/Holy Spirit in them when the scripture (Jn 7:38-39) states it was not yet given?

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Steaver -

Please correct me if I am wrong but I believe this is your "old questions get old answers game" right?

Not given as we see in Acts 1 and 2 BUT ALREADY given as we see in Matt 10 and John 3 PRE Cross!

John 3:3-12 The Holy Spirit was "already given to individuals" John 3:3-12 and Christ scolded the Hebrew Bible teacher Nicodemus for not already knowing of the individual work of the Holy Spirit.

Gen 41:38 – the Holy Spirit was IN Joseph

Ezek 3:24 – the Holy Spirit was IN Ezekiel and ON Ezekiel

Isaiah 63:8-14, HS IN your midst

Ps 51:8-12 – HS working with David just as He does with us today

Is 59:21 – Holy Spirit was upon them, forever promises of the Holy Spirit

Hag 2:5 “My Holy Spirit is abiding IN your midst”

Jer 24:7 “A heart to Know Me”

John 3 – the Work of the Holy Spirit in the New Birth to be known by Jewish Bible Scholars pre-cross.

John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

As John 3 shows above - the work of the Holy Spirit pre-cross was already well known to OT Bible scholars.

The Acts 1 and 2 work of the Holy Spirit had not yet begun.

Please ask that question again if you want to see this answer again.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Jesus breathed on them and said 'Receive ye the Holy Spirit'


And they did receive the Holy Spirit when it fell on them on the Day of Pentecost.

 

[BobRyan]

John 3:3-12 The Holy Spirit was "already given to individuals" John 3:3-12 and Christ scolded the Hebrew Bible teacher Nicodemus for not already knowing of the individual work of the Holy Spirit.

Gen 41:38 – the Holy Spirit was IN Joseph


But even so - the Acts 1 and 2 work of the Holy Spirit had not yet begun and so Christ told the disciples to wait for it..

 

[standingfirminChrist]

In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit only visited, He did not stay permanently.

Since Jesus went to the Father, the Holy Spirit indwells and never leaves the saved.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

SFC,

Eph. 4:30 warns us, that we do not grieve the Holy Spirit, because we are sealed till the day of redemption.

What if we grieve the Holy Spirit? What would the Holy Spirit do with us?

Do you actual understand what "day of redemption" means?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[BobRyan]

In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit only visited, He did not stay permanently.

Since Jesus went to the Father, the Holy Spirit indwells and never leaves the saved.

In Is 59 we have "the forever promise" of the Holy Spirit.

There is no "he only visited" text in scripture - not in NT and not in OT.

BUT BOTH the NT and OT warn against grieving away the Holy Spirit.



Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,He fought against them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

(BobRyan).....Please correct me if I am wrong but I believe this is your "old questions get old answers game" right?

You would be wrong. It is old questions still need some direct answer. You stand corrected.

(BobRyan).....As John 3 shows above - the work of the Holy Spirit pre-cross was already well known to OT Bible scholars.

The Acts 1 and 2 work of the Holy Spirit had not yet begun.

Please ask that question again if you want to see this answer again.

in Christ,

Bob

John 3 shows no such thing. John 3 shows that one OT Bible scholar was clueless to the "rebirth" Jesus spoke of. Anything beyond that must be supported by other scriptures.

What is your definition of being "born-again"?

According to the scriptures in John 4&7 you could not include the indwellment of the Holy Spirit/Living Water nor the gift of Everlasting Life for these are all included in the "not yet given" scripture.

Here they are for reference...

Jhn 4:10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

We see "the gift of God". This we know is "eternal life" (Jhn 4:14, Ro 6:23)

We also see "living water". This we know is the "Holy Spirit" (Jhn 7:39)

Jhn 4:14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Four facts of this "living water", 1) It is given by Jesus 2) anyone receiving this water shall never thirst 3) this water shall be in the believer 4) this water is a well of everlasting life.

Jhn 7:38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Jhn 7:39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Fact; Living Water is the Holy Spirit.

Fact; Living Water is Everlasting Life.

Fact; Living Water as described for us in chapters 4 and 7 was not yet given until after Jesus' glorification.

I ask that you refute the conclusions that I make from these scriptures and give alternative ones if you disagree.

Second I ask you to give me your definition of "born-again". Tell me why you believe one can be born-again pre-glorification without receiving the Living Water/Holy Spirit that scripture declares was given only after Jesus' glorification.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[standingfirminChrist]

SFC,

Eph. 4:30 warns us, that we do not grieve the Holy Spirit, because we are sealed till the day of redemption.

What if we grieve the Holy Spirit? What would the Holy Spirit do with us?

Do you actual understand what "day of redemption" means?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

DPT, we are sealed unto the day for redemption. We are promised that He will never leave us nor forsake us. We are promised that He is with us alway even to the end of the world.

Do you know what "alway" means?

 

[steaver]

In Is 59 we have "the forever promise" of the Holy Spirit.

It is odd that you would reference a portion of scripture that would seem to reject the fact that one could have the Holy Spirit and then have it leave them. God says ....

Isa 59:21As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.


Looks like you referenced a OSAS passage,

However, the passage is not about personal salvation nor OSAS and so this leaves you off the hook, but it also leaves you empty as to using this passage as support against the fact that the Holy Spirit indwells believers in the NT and only came upon them in the OT. And we all are guilty of grieving the Holy Spirit by which we are sealed at differing points in our lives.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

It is odd that you would reference a portion of scripture that would seem to reject the fact that one could have the Holy Spirit and then have it leave them. God says ....

I can't argue with that -

you have a good point there - I am almost always arguing this the other way around in both NT and OT - my point is that the concept of perseverance firm unto the end is in both OT and NT.



Isa 59:21As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Looks like you referenced a OSAS passage,

I agree again. IF ANYTHING the OT makes an argument for perseverance and OSAS rather than "saved but the H.S is not sticking around much".

The point is - the ONE Gospel is working the SAME in both the OT and the NT and the New Birth function of the H.S is the SAME as Christ tells Nicodemus pre-cross,..

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

When you get a chance brother :wavey:

John 3 shows no such thing. John 3 shows that one OT Bible scholar was clueless to the "rebirth" Jesus spoke of. Anything beyond that must be supported by other scriptures.

What is your definition of being "born-again"?

According to the scriptures in John 4&7 you could not include the indwellment of the Holy Spirit/Living Water nor the gift of Everlasting Life for these are all included in the "not yet given" scripture.

Here they are for reference...

Jhn 4:10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

We see "the gift of God". This we know is "eternal life" (Jhn 4:14, Ro 6:23)

We also see "living water". This we know is the "Holy Spirit" (Jhn 7:39)

Jhn 4:14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Four facts of this "living water", 1) It is given by Jesus 2) anyone receiving this water shall never thirst 3) this water shall be in the believer 4) this water is a well of everlasting life.

Jhn 7:38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Jhn 7:39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Fact; Living Water is the Holy Spirit.

Fact; Living Water is Everlasting Life.

Fact; Living Water as described for us in chapters 4 and 7 was not yet given until after Jesus' glorification.

I ask that you refute the conclusions that I make from these scriptures and give alternative ones if you disagree.

Second I ask you to give me your definition of "born-again". Tell me why you believe one can be born-again pre-glorification without receiving the Living Water/Holy Spirit that scripture declares was given only after Jesus' glorification.

God Bless! :thumbs: