Question to our SDA friend

[BobRyan]

Heb 9 "Without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sins".

the Scapegoat is not a sin offering and without a sin offering no atonement for sin.

If you have an example of a non-sacrifice being the symbol used for obtaining forgiveness - please show it from scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Shiloh]

Paul the Apostle to the Galatians said this in, Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

So, what should we tell the SDA that tell us the full payment for our sins is not complete until the devil pays for them? I DON'T THINK SO!! I will continue to tell them about the Grace and Mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ. If they don't like it .....so be it.

I do have 1 question for them, him, her whatever it is.......no matter when you get on this "BAPTIST" message board "they" are on it. Maybe I just dumb, but aren't they supposed to be in church or something today? It is Saturday

Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1Co 16:2 Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

 

[Shiloh]

If you have an example of a non-sacrifice being the symbol used for obtaining forgiveness - please show it from scripture. Bob

I'll give you an example of the sacrifice for sin I am depending on and nothing else.....no goat!!

Joh 19:16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led [him] away.
Joh 19:17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called [the place] of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
Joh 19:18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.
Joh 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put [it] on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Joh 19:20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, [and] Greek, [and] Latin.
Joh 19:21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.
Joh 19:22 Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.
Joh 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also [his] coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
Joh 19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.
Joh 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
Joh 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
Joh 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own [home].
Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Joh 19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to his mouth.
Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Why do the SDA spell "FINISHED" g-o-a-t ?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Paul the Apostle to the Galatians said this in, Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

So, what should we tell the SDA that tell us the full payment for our sins is not complete until the devil pays for them? I DON'T THINK SO!! I will continue to tell them about the Grace and Mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ. If they don't like it .....so be it.

I do have 1 question for them, him, her whatever it is.......no matter when you get on this "BAPTIST" message board "they" are on it. Maybe I just dumb, but aren't they supposed to be in church or something today? It is Saturday

Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1Co 16:2 Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

GE:
I'm not a SDA. I have no Congregation to attend. Sometimes only a few of us are able to come together ON GOD'S DAY OF REST and worship Him. Precious occasion! Wish it could be every Sabbath ... maybe soon, I believe. If not then when Jesus will come again on the earth recreated.
So I find the Internet a great help to fellowship a little - not near the real thing of course!
We have our views on the keeping of the Sabbath Day, and be sure work and Law are not for us the Sabbath's main content - not ours, in any case. For us the Sabbath is about the work of God - which is His ultimate act of rest through Jesus Christ in the raising of Him from the dead "In the Sabbath's fulness of day" (Mt28:1).
What does a Christian more require for believing and enjoying The Sabbath of the LORD your God?

 

[BobRyan]

Shiloh said --

So, what should we tell the SDA that tell us the full payment for our sins is not complete until the devil pays for them?

That is me quoting Shiloh

That is not Shiloh quoting ME or Adventist doctrine.

Just thought I would add some actual facts to Shiloh's post.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

So your three references are absolutely useless for negating what God had blessed, what God had sanctified, what God had finished in, what God had rested upon - absolutely, useless. In fact, your three references each and every one, confirm the Seventh Day of God's "thus concerning speaking", the Christian Day of Worship Rest.

Sevvy Balesteros is known for saying, when the golf enthusiasts arrive at his golf-courses to play: "I say hallo to them; I pat them on the shoulder, and wish them good luck; and I think: I'm going to destroy you!

 

[BobRyan]

If you have an example of a non-sacrifice being the symbol used for obtaining forgiveness - please show it from scripture. Bob

Shiloh said
I'll give you an example of the sacrifice for sin I am depending on and nothing else.....no goat!!

Joh 19:16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led [him] away...

How wonderful - when asked for one thing - Shiloh gives "something else" but if we check closely JESUS DID DIE For our sins AS A SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONING sacrifice - and OFFERING FOR SIN.

Why is this concept so difficult for you Shiloh??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Sinful? Perhaps. But lekker!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:
"if we check closely JESUS DID DIE For our sins AS A SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONING sacrifice - and OFFERING FOR SIN."

GE:
You haven't checked closely enough, dear Bob.

If we check closely Jesus did DIE for our sins, God's substitutionary, atoning, SACRIFICE, and ROSE, an OFFERING for sin. Jesus had nothing 'offered before the LORD' until raised from the dead.

Can't you get it? I doubt not you can. You won't admit ... that's the problem with you!

 

[BobRyan]

I fully accept the Atoning Sacrifice full and complete ON THE CROSS and I accept the High Priestly ministry of Christ stated in Heb 8-10 POST-Cross IN HEAVEN NOW appearing before God FOR US!

I also fully accept that BOTH of these are referenced in Lev 16's teaching BY GOD on the doctrine of Atonement.

What is not to get? How could anyone possibly turn a blind eye to this?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

Shiloh said --
Quote:
So, what should we tell the SDA that tell us the full payment for our sins is not complete until the devil pays for them?


I have to say this is absolutely strange that this person doesnt seem to get that we arent saying nor have we ever said the devil "pays" for any of the believer's sins. Its weird.

and it doesnt seem to matter just how many times you say it or how many ways you state it, either.

oh well. :sleep:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I fully accept the Atoning Sacrifice full and complete ON THE CROSS and I accept the High Priestly ministry of Christ stated in Heb 8-10 POST-Cross IN HEAVEN NOW appearing before God FOR US!

I also fully accept that BOTH of these are referenced in Lev 16's teaching BY GOD on the doctrine of Atonement.

What is not to get? How could anyone possibly turn a blind eye to this?

in Christ,

Bob

GE:
What you turn a blind eye to, is the Atoning Sacrifice full and complete ON THE CROSS, is "OFFERED, BEFORE THE LORD", in the resurrection of Christ from the dead. See, again you have subtly removed it from the total context of full and final ATONE_MENT, right in this statement of yours!

And what you are further totally incapable of comprehending, is that the "ministry of Christ stated in Heb 8-10 POST-Cross IN HEAVEN NOW appearing before God FOR US", NO LONGER is "atonement" being made for sin. It is just what it is - just what you have said it is. And it is for the saved ONLY. Jesus now reconciles no one with God; He had done so on the cross through resurrection from the dead.

 

[BobRyan]

The Atoning sacrifice of Christ was FULL AND COMPLETE at the cross FINISHED at the Cross.

I have said that consistently - but I do not choose to turn a blind eye to Lev 16 telling us that the Atonement PROCESS also includes the high priestly work of Christ.

I accept BOTH

 

[BobRyan]

1Tim 2:5
[/B]5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,




Heb 5
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Shiloh said --
Quote:
So, what should we tell the SDA that tell us the full payment for our sins is not complete until the devil pays for them?


I have to say this is absolutely strange that this person doesnt seem to get that we arent saying nor have we ever said the devil "pays" for any of the believer's sins. Its weird.

and it doesnt seem to matter just how many times you say it or how many ways you state it, either.

oh well. :sleep:

GE:
So if the devil pays / atones for the wicked, is it not just just (applying your logic) that the wicked should be saved too?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The Atoning sacrifice of Christ was FULL AND COMPLETE at the cross FINISHED at the Cross.

I have said that consistently - but I do not choose to turn a blind eye to Lev 16 telling us that the Atonement PROCESS also includes the high priestly work of Christ.

I accept BOTH

GE:
I'm not blind; you consistently have talked about "atoning SACRIFICE at the Cross" AND, "the Atonement PROCESS" after. So the sacrifice did NOT to your thinking complete the Atonement; you are INconsistent.
But God's atonement is NO process; it is His "ONCE FOR ALL" complete deed finished in the ONE death and resurrection of jesus Christ - beginning with and in and through His suffering hell and death, and ending with and in and through His conquering hell and death in and with and through and by resurrection from the dead.
Jesus' ongoing intercession is founded upon this finished work of His and is to the benefit of those only under the privelege and benefit of His reconciliation and atonement through death and resurrection.

You deny it in toto by denying it in part. You refuse the redemption God offers you in Christ by rejecting the atoning and saving power of His resurrection.

 

[Claudia_T]

How many times have we said the devil doesnt atone for anyones sins? Let me count the ways... :flower:

 

[Shiloh]

By Claudia, (ah man, poor kids, another cold supper.......)
How many times have we said the devil doesnt atone for anyones sins? Let me count the ways..

Against my better judgement I will talk to you.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid [it] upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
Gen 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here [am] I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where [is] the lamb for a burnt offering?
Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Now, where does your goat fit in this picture?

Let me answer the question, Mrs. White said it was so that's good enough for you.

 

[BobRyan]

GE:
So if the devil pays / atones for the wicked, is it not just just (applying your logic) that the wicked should be saved too?

The Devil pays for the wicked???

The Devil atones for the Wicked sinners who are lost and go to the lake of fire???

Where do you get that stuff??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

GE:
I'm not blind; you consistently have talked about "atoning SACRIFICE at the Cross" AND, "the Atonement PROCESS" after. So the sacrifice did NOT to your thinking complete the Atonement; you are INconsistent.

The glaring error in your argument is that you mix YOUR OWN definition in with God's AS IF God has said what you wish He had said.

GOD is the one that wrote Lev 16 - NOT SDAs.

GOD is the one that points us to BOTH the full and complete "ATONING SACRIFICE" of the Lamb of God SLAIN for the sins of the world - AND to the WORK of the HIGH PRIEST In that "DAY of Atonement" PROCESs HE gave us in Lev 16.

So when we read that GOD SHOWS us where and when the High Priestly ministry of Christ takes place in Heb 8-10 we don't simply BLAME SDAS for what we read in scripture.

You WANT to argue that the "ATONEMENT" is definined as the "PRICE PAID at CALVARY" that OMITS all that God said about the High Priest's role in the PROCESS of atonement in Lev 16.

I say "Well IF we could accept your man-made definition and DOWNSIZE God's Lev 16 PROCESS to JUST the Atoning Sacrifice -- then yes it was completed at the cross and we all agree to IGNORE the other details God gives in HIS WORD in Lev 16".

GE
But God's atonement is NO process;

Of course it is not the PROCESS we SEE in Lev 16 because YOU say it is not and why should we listen to what GOD SAID in Lev 16 to the contrary when we have YOU to tell us otherwise!!

I never considered that as a valid means of Bible study - but I suppose that is the only way to get man-made tradition inserted IN PLACE of what God actually said!

Christs ATONING sacrifice completed at the cross was ONCE FOR ALL completed and finished in His Death and Resurrection.

GE Said

it is His "ONCE FOR ALL" complete deed finished in the ONE death and resurrection of jesus Christ - beginning with and in and through His suffering hell and death, and ending with and in and through His conquering hell and death in and with and through and by resurrection from the dead.

Indeed the ATONING SACRIFICE completed. (See 1John 2:2 NIV)

Jesus' ongoing intercession is founded upon this finished work of His

Exactly - that is how Lev 16 shows the work of the high priest that takes place AFTER the finished work of the goat SLAIN and it is what Paul shows Christ doing in Heb 8-10.

End of story.

In Christ,

Bob