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Question to our SDA friend
- Thread starter Shiloh
- Start date
PastorSBC1303
Active Member
Claudia_T said:
There is no need for that according to you....all the sins were put upon Satan.
Simple justice demands that while Christ suffers for my guilt, Satan must also be punished as the instigator of sin.
That is why, on the Day of Atonement, two goats were necessary. One was "for the Lord" (Lev. 16:7) to provide the atonement through the shedding of his blood; the other was "for Azazel" (Lev. 16:8). These two were, in the text, placed in antithesis. One typified our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who was slain as our substitute and vicariously bore our sins, with all the guilt and punishment entailed. Thus He made complete atonement for our sins. The other goat, we believe, stood for Satan, who is eventually to have rolled back upon his own head, not only his own sins, but the responsibility for all the sins he has caused others to commit.
Now two vital points involved are to be particularly noted: (1) that the transaction with the live goat (or Azazel) took place after the atonement for the sins of the people had been accomplished, and the reconciliation completed; and (2) that the live goat was not slain, and did not provide any propitiation or make any vicarious atonement. And without the shedding of blood there is no remission (Heb. 9:22). None of the blood of the live goat was shed, or poured out in propitiation, and none was taken into the sanctuary and sprinkled before the Lord, or placed on the horns of the altar.
Satan makes no atonement for our sins. But Satan will ultimately have to bear the retributive punishment for his responsibility in the sins of all men, both righteous and wicked.
That is why, on the Day of Atonement, two goats were necessary. One was "for the Lord" (Lev. 16:7) to provide the atonement through the shedding of his blood; the other was "for Azazel" (Lev. 16:8). These two were, in the text, placed in antithesis. One typified our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who was slain as our substitute and vicariously bore our sins, with all the guilt and punishment entailed. Thus He made complete atonement for our sins. The other goat, we believe, stood for Satan, who is eventually to have rolled back upon his own head, not only his own sins, but the responsibility for all the sins he has caused others to commit.
Now two vital points involved are to be particularly noted: (1) that the transaction with the live goat (or Azazel) took place after the atonement for the sins of the people had been accomplished, and the reconciliation completed; and (2) that the live goat was not slain, and did not provide any propitiation or make any vicarious atonement. And without the shedding of blood there is no remission (Heb. 9:22). None of the blood of the live goat was shed, or poured out in propitiation, and none was taken into the sanctuary and sprinkled before the Lord, or placed on the horns of the altar.
Satan makes no atonement for our sins. But Satan will ultimately have to bear the retributive punishment for his responsibility in the sins of all men, both righteous and wicked.
PastorSBC1303
Active Member
Wow, you are way out there...kind of scary.
Good luck with that theology.
I will stick with a Christ-centered focus.
Good luck with that theology.
I will stick with a Christ-centered focus.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Shiloh said:
Sins are recorded in the books of heaven as is the entire life of all people. In Dan 7 we see a judgment scene where God and an entire courtroom full of beings (myriads and myriads according to Daniel) open the books and the judgment takes place prior to the second coming.
Eventually according to Daniel the resuilt of that judgment is that "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22.
Paul says in 2Cor 5 "We must all given an account for the deeds done in the body whether they be good OR evil"
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Claudia_T said:
In that case it is not our sins that are on Satan - since Christ paid the debt for our sins - rather it is Satan's OWN sin that is on Satan - HIS sin of tempting the saints -- not the saints sins.
Our sins are recorded in the books and are then blotted out via the blood of Christ. And that ends the "debt owed" for our sins.
However Christ is not going to pay for the sins that Satan commits - as I know we both agree.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Claudia_T said:
But using that model - it is still Satan's own sins laid upon Satan - even if it is specifically the added guilt that he must endure for HIS sin of tempting those who belong to God's Kingdom -- the saints.
The same is true of the wicked - that the scapegoat also represents. The wicked pay for their own sins in hell - even though Christ's blood was sufficient to atone for them had they accept Christ as their savior.
In Christ,
Bob
Shiloh is a she? why would a she be calling me "honey"? I wouldve liked "Sweetheart" better, but, well... you know.
well anyway though I dont think she actually thinks the scapegoat is the devil but I may be wrong on that.
to me its just silly though, I wonder if these guys are related to Steaver? You can say you dont believe the scapegoat is atoning for our sins but they will say well yes you do anyway. and you can tell Steaver that we dont believe in doing the commandments in order to earn salvation but he will say well yes you do. Its just nuts. Like talking to a wall.
well anyway though I dont think she actually thinks the scapegoat is the devil but I may be wrong on that.
to me its just silly though, I wonder if these guys are related to Steaver? You can say you dont believe the scapegoat is atoning for our sins but they will say well yes you do anyway. and you can tell Steaver that we dont believe in doing the commandments in order to earn salvation but he will say well yes you do. Its just nuts. Like talking to a wall.
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Bob Ryan "In that case it is not our sins that are on Satan - since Christ paid the debt for our sins - rather it is Satan's OWN sin that is on Satan - HIS sin of tempting the saints -- not the saints sins."
by Claudia well there you go Bob! Thats what I have been trying to say but I didnt know quite how to say it. You are absolutely right! It is Satans own sins that are on his head and Christ did not pay for his sins... RIGHT!!!....but first Claudia said in her first post"Ultimately our sins are on the scapegoat, who is Satan. The originator of evil who tempted all of us and thus ultimately is responsible for our sins. NOT as an atonement. Jesus made the atonement and has already paid for our sins."
-------------------------------------
No the devil was cast out for his sin Isa.14:12-15, and will pay for HIS sin Rev. 20:10. The unbeliever will pay for THEIR sin Rev.20:15
What part of that don't you understand?
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
1 Peter 2:24 speaking of Messiah Jesus and the saved
person's sins (KJV1611 Edition):
Who his owne selfe bare our sinnes in his owne body
on the tree, that wee being dead to sinnes,
should liue vnto righteousnesse,
by whose stripes ye were healed.
person's sins (KJV1611 Edition):
Who his owne selfe bare our sinnes in his owne body
on the tree, that wee being dead to sinnes,
should liue vnto righteousnesse,
by whose stripes ye were healed.
Shiloh said:
Bob Ryan "In that case it is not our sins that are on Satan - since Christ paid the debt for our sins - rather it is Satan's OWN sin that is on Satan - HIS sin of tempting the saints -- not the saints sins."
by Claudia well there you go Bob! Thats what I have been trying to say but I didnt know quite how to say it. You are absolutely right! It is Satans own sins that are on his head and Christ did not pay for his sins... RIGHT!!!....but first Claudia said in her first post"Ultimately our sins are on the scapegoat, who is Satan. The originator of evil who tempted all of us and thus ultimately is responsible for our sins. NOT as an atonement. Jesus made the atonement and has already paid for our sins."
-------------------------------------
No the devil was cast out for his sin Isa.14:12-15, and will pay for HIS sin Rev. 20:10. The unbeliever will pay for THEIR sin Rev.20:15
What part of that don't you understand?
you have read what I said at first and then what I said after what Bob said so please just stop twisting things...
I said that I just didnt know the right way to present what I really meant. The scapegoat doctrine is one doctrine that Bob knows alot more about than I do. I really have not studied into it very much. so just leave it at that.
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Claudia_T said:
GE:
Neither did I. As far as I know there's only Lv16 verses 20 to 22 in all of Scripture on the live goat. Like the 1000 years that is mentioned in just one Scripture, far too much is made of it, I think.
Nevertheless it's clear enough to me the 'scapegoat' or escape-goat, from the description, "LIVE" goat, REPRESENTS or SYMBOLIZES - and therefore not fully, but, but dimly, Jesus Christ who for us obtained LIFE.
Leviticus is also unambiguously clear, that the priest by laying hands upon it, ATONES for the sins of ISRAEL - the saved - not of the wicked or the devil.
No degree required, not even a jacket.