Questioning One's Salvation

[steaver]

Moderator please!

I was looking through the BB rules and could not find this rule, I must be overlooking it.

Anyways, I am sure it exist because it is talked about many times.

I wanted to read it because it seems odd to me that all comments pertaining to one's salvation being banned would cause most of us to be banned.

For instance, I said this to HP....

Steaver;

All I have to offer you HP is scripture which you seem to not want to accept. Are you "born of God"? The only way to know is by the Spirit testifying that you are, so if God does not tell us we are in Jesus Christ then I don't know how else we could know.

HP came back with...

HP: That is as clear of a violation of the rules of this forum as can possibly be imagined. You directly questioned my salvation. Moderator please.

Now I thought this silly to tell you the truth. One cannot make rhetorical questions about one's salvation in an attempt emphasize a point? Not to say they might not be saved or are not saved.

Actually, I made similiar remarks before this one that was not questioned in this manner, for example...

Steaver; Tell us then HP, how do you know you are saved and how do you know you are not decieved?

Another...

Steaver; How do you know that Jesus Christ is in you?

Another...

Steaver; Hebrews 10:10; "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]." Are you one of the "we" who is sanctified HP?
Hebrews 10:14; "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." Are you one of the "we" who are sanctified HP?

Are these comments breaking BB rules about questioning another's salvation? I can't see this being the intent of the rule, I don't know, I haven't read it, couldn't find it.

I would think a rule like this would be in the context of saying something like...

"If you believe in a pre-trib rapture then the Holy Spirit can't be in you". Or "I don't think you are truly saved if you don't understand this".

I would think that the rule, being in a debate setting, would be imposed because sometimes people in debate will cast such remarks on an opponant just because they will not see an issue their way. I don't see such remarks as mine being interpreted as declaring another unsaved.

By the way HP, you talk in the same way many times and I don't see you as "questioning my salvation". Here is an example of you speaking the same way I do....

Steaver: So I find only one way to know how that Jesus Christ is in me. That is by the Spirit that God has given me and the scripture testifies that this is truth. Ro 8, John 3.

HP: I see your ‘answer’ as in reality begging the question. What evidence do you have that the Spirit of God is testifying this truth to your heart? How do you know that you are simply deceived as to believing a lie?

I understood the rhetorical questions. I never thought for a moment you were questioning whether or not I was saved.

SOO. Moderator, can we have some definition put into this rule concerning the questioning of one's salvation?

:jesus:

 

[Steven2006]

My two cents. I find it a little surprising and a little unsettling that so many adults cry to the moderators so often at this site. I have never witnessed anything like it at any other site. I constantly see people either calling for or claiming that they will report people or their posts. So be honest the thought of doing so has never entered my mind, and doubt it ever would. It feels like elementary school and children tattle tailing to the teacher. IMO if you are a grown adult it is much more effective and more proper to handle it yourself.

I always have viewed reporting posts to the moderator as something to do, if the site was being attacked, or if someone posted something vulgar or inappropriate that should not be here. Or if someone came here attacking Christ and promoting some cult or something, but not because we got our egos bruised.

Lately it seems like it is in vogue for many here to complain that they are being treated like children, and not treated fairly by the moderators. Well if you act like children you can't hardly blame the moderators for responding in kind. I am sure the moderators have busy lives like we all do, and don't need to be constantly bothering with childish bickering. I think we owe them enough respect to stop running to them for every little thing.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I suggest you, that you better send private message to moderators than make topic or make post there. Because if anyone of you to make topic or post discuss on moderators, it would make moderators and Baptistboard looks bad. So, better send private message to moderator instead of make topic or post. To make Baptistboard looks nice and good reputation.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[steaver]

DPT;

I suggest you, that you better send private message to moderators than make topic or make post there. Because if anyone of you to make topic or post discuss on moderators, it would make moderators and Baptistboard looks bad. So, better send private message to moderator instead of make topic or post. To make Baptistboard looks nice and good reputation.

The post is not to discuss moderators. The post is asking a moderator to define a rule or for a moderator to ask the administration to define a rule so we all can know how we ought to behave, either in posting or reponding to a post concerning personal salvation.

I considered a private message, but thought it beneficial to everyone if the issue was presented publically so we can all understand what the rule entails.

Personally, I agree with Steven. If someone says something that offends me I will tell them, without threats and without reports. I have never reported anyone for an insult or a question of my salvation. I always reply directly to the person, asking them for an explanation of why or if it is an insult I tell them how I took it and give them the oportunity to explain or appologize. ANd if they won't appologize then it is between them and God, I did my part.

:thumbsup:

 

[Gup20]

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

I'm sure someone else could give a better definition than I, but I will take a stab at it. I apologize if this posts lacks the clarity it should contain.

IMHO, asking someone if they've been born again or born of God would depend on the context. If it is said in an inappropriate manner, it could be against the rules. OTOH, I ask people that all the time in person. It's no different to me than asking someone if they are Baptist or what church they go to. I do not ask to insult them. I ask because I want to know. Something like that should not even be broached without the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Now, if two or more of you are arguing and one asks, "Are you sure you're saved?", or "You sure don't act like you're saved!", that is definitely against the rules. One should not even imply that someone else is not saved. It is none of our business. That is between each person and God.

Post unto others as you would have them post unto you and we would have much less bickering and 'tattling' on the BB.

There is a big difference in debating and arguing. We have debate forums, not arguing, insulting, belittling, calling names, attacking or deciding who's saved forums. I think everyone must have cabin fever. The last month or so, it has been nothing but bickering and when someone reports a post, it is usually something that should have been handled privately between two people via PM. Jesus said to take it to the person.....not publicize it.

Instead of seeing how far we can 'push the envelope', we should be trying to stay as far away from the edge as possible...

Do not state, or even imply, that someone is not saved and you should be safe as far as the rules go. I think we're all in for some surprises when we get to Heaven. Be nice to other posters. They may be your neighbors for eternity. :godisgood:

Blessings,
§ue :1_grouphug:

 

[DHK]

Moderator please!

SOO. Moderator, can we have some definition put into this rule concerning the questioning of one's salvation?

:jesus:

Your answer is here:

[SIZE=-1]4. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. The board has an edit button enabled. We encourage you to use it and edit your own words. Moderators and Administrators will be visibly proactive in dealing with potentially offensive situations. Posts of a violent or threatening nature, either implicitly or explicitly, will be deleted, and the poster's membership revoked. We encourage personal problems with other members be resolved privately via email or personal messaging.

Questioning someone's salvation falls into the category of a personal attack, and will be treated on the same level as any other personal attack. As the rule states, personal attacks are not tolerated. Personal issues should be taken up via pm's or emails.
[/SIZE]

 

[DHK]

Thank-you for your clarity Sue. Objectivity in your posts is key. Try to be impersonal.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.


HP: By quoting a passage such as this in a debate, is this considered questioning ones salvation? Why or why not?

 

[Onlybygrace]

All this discussion makes me wonder if I'm really saved...oops I think I just questioned my own salvation, now I'm going to have to ban myself...

:laugh:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Onlybygrace: All this discussion makes me wonder if I'm really saved...oops I think I just questioned my own salvation, now I'm going to have to ban myself...

HP: You have simply not been around long enough to see the import and seriousness of this discussion. Not your fault for certain. Stay tuned and educate yourself on the issue. :thumbsup:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Let me post some quotes to help those that have not been around that long see the import of this discussion.

There was a man of God banned on this list in the recent past in a discussion with a man that is still on this board. The issue of questioning another’s salvation was one of the reasons given for him being banned. The names are not important so I will delete the names and just post the substance.

The verse I mentioned in the above post was the one that was used in the debate. 1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. One member admonished another member to apply this verse to his his life as I recall. Then came this comment from the moderator:

“Not only has ( #1)said that (#2) is not of God, he has said that (#2) possesses that spirit of antichrist. How complimentary (#1)! The spirit of antichrist was already in the world during the time of John. He didn't say the Antichrist was alive, but the spirit of Antichrist--those that were in direct opposition to the teaching of Christ; those that worked against Him and not for Him. This what (#1)is testifying about (#2).



Test the spirits to see if they are of God.
The spirits are demons. (#1)implies that (#2)is possessed by a demon because that is the context of this passage which no one really bothered to expound. It is a terrible accusation, and should not stand. I believe an apology is in order.”

#1 was promptly banned, and that for life. I followed these discussions carefully although I was not directly involved in them as I recall. So you see, matters such as we are discussing are not trivial in nature, and greatly affect the lives of others. Some of which are no longer with us.

Now I have a question for I Am Blessed 20. You said, “Do not state, or even imply, that someone is not saved and you should be safe as far as the rules go.” I ask you, does one state or imply that another is not saved by posting the verse in question and admonishing another, to test the spirits whether they are of God? Let me get real personal. If you stated that the Spirit testifies to you thus and so, and I said to you, IAmBlessed20, "You need to test the spirits to see if they are of God," have I questioned your salvation in a way opposed to the rules of this forum?

 

[Onlybygrace]

In response to HP,

OK I get get it...that is a bit of a pedantic interpretation of the rule by the moderator then is it not since seeing #1 did not directly call #2 a false prophet, how could they come to that conclusion?

Another point is did they give #1 an opportunity to contextualise and explain his comments, that would have been a fair thing to do, don't you think?

Maybe there needs to be a mediatory stage where the 2 parties can discuss the issue and resolve it. Even though this is just an online community I think the principles of scripture should still govern our behaviour. arbitrary mediation violates the principle of Matthew 18:15-20. Why did #2 not just contact #1 and sort it out?

People have alluded to me being a liberal on this sight so shall I invoke this rule against them? Honestly we all need to grow up a bit methinks....

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Good questions OnlybyGrace. :thumbsup:

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

HP: No, I would not consider that Scripture as questioning my salvation. I have told my children and my husband many times that very Scripture.

We are admonished to test the spirits daily. That Scripture applies to all of us...not just one person.

Test the spirits. If they line up with the Word of God, it is the Holy Spirit. If they do not, they are evil spirits and need to be rebuked.

I see that Scripture as advice, IMHO.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Iam Blessed20: No, I would not consider that Scripture as questioning my salvation. I have told my children and my husband many times that very Scripture.

HP: Thank you for your straight forward response.:thumbs: Neither would I consider such as questioning another's salvation. I am commanded, as well as all others, to see if I be of the faith, and to test the spirits I am listening to, to see if they are of God. Good advice for any and every believer in my estimation.

Help us on this list understand. If quoting the above verse is not questioning another’s salvation directly, and as such is not against the rules, can you cite one example, without names of course, that has every broken the rule of calling into question another’s salvation on this list? If any have, how did they do it?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Please tell me what 'list' you are talking about. I had no idea we had a 'list'...

I can think of a few ways. Actually, they are not all questions. Statements can be made where a poster is stating one is not saved, not questioning.

1) You are certainly not acting like a Christian!
2) How can you call yourself a Christian and ___________?
3) Are you head saved or heart saved?
4) I'm not calling you a liar when you say you're saved, but____________.
5) Are you sure your salvation was real?

There have been so many over the years since I've been here. The above are just a few that come to mind. They are certainly not the only way to question one's salvation.

Please don't forget to tell me about the 'list'. Enquiring minds want to know.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I Am Blessed 20: Please tell me what 'list' you are talking about. I had no idea we had a 'list'...

HP: I simply was referring to the BB as ‘the list.”

IAB20: I can think of a few ways. Actually, they are not all questions. Statements can be made where a poster is stating one is not saved, not questioning.

1) You are certainly not acting like a Christian!

IAB20: 2) How can you call yourself a Christian and ___________?
3) Are you head saved or heart saved?
4) I'm not calling you a liar when you say you're saved, but____________.
5) Are you sure your salvation was real?

There have been so many over the years since I've been here. The above are just a few that come to mind. They are certainly not the only way to question one's salvation.

HP: What if one is an open confessed sinner showing no remorse of change of heart towards their sins? What if one states they are a liar and I say, "How can one know they are saved if in fact they remain in the same sins, unrepentant of that they were as sinners before salvation?"

Is there any evidence that a believer must show outwardly that they are indeed born of God, or was that stripper I heard testify that she was a ‘stripper for God’ on solid ground that she was serving who she thought she was?

Back to this list, the BB. Can you site one example where one directly questioned the salvation of another in your estimation, without giving any names of course. If you can pointy directly to a specific quote it would be helpful.

 

[steaver]

1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.


HP: By quoting a passage such as this in a debate, is this considered questioning ones salvation? Why or why not?

Depends on the context of the debate.

If one tells you that the Holy Spirit has testified to their spirit that they are a child of God as Romans 8 teaches us this is how we know we are saved,

and then the other post back with 1Jo 4:1, this person is not only doubting this one's testimony of having the Spirit of Christ, which is the only way one can know for sure they are saved,

but this person has also declared the testimony of the Holy Spirit can be faked by an evil spirit, thus stripping the word of God of it's power and stripping the Holy Spirit's ministry of witnessing Jesus Christ to God's children.

Romans 8:16 declares the Spirit testifies with spirit those who are the children of God. This is a ministry, a work only the Holy Spirit can do. There is not a demon in this world who would testify to a child of God that Jesus Christ is Lord, which is the testimony God has placed in a believer's heart and spirit. Spirit testifies with spirit. Demons do not testify Jesus Christ to anyone. If they could, then the Holy Spirit would be competing with the demons, which He does not.

1Jo 4:2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

If one says that a demon could confess Jesus Christ is come in the flesh then this scripture would be a lie. Therefore ONLY the Holy Spirit can testify to the spirit that one is a child of God.


For anyone to suggest that one who says "the Spirit of God has testified with my spirit that I am a child of God" could be deceived is to say one could be deceived of God and is to actually blasphemy the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

So in this context, quoting 1Jo 4 is worse than questioning one's salvation, it is questioning God's ministry of the Holy Spirit. Demons do not testify to God's children they are God's children.

:godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: For anyone to suggest that one who says "the Spirit of God has testified with my spirit that I am a child of God" could be deceived is to say one could be deceived of God and is to actually blasphemy the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

HP: Are you saying that I am guilty of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit Steaver?