Questions for nondispensationalists

[The Harvest]

Here is a list of questions that I don't see how people who believe the "look forward to the cross" theory could answer. If you don't believe in dispensations, please answer these questions based upon scripture.

1. If people in the OT were saved by grace through faith just as we are now, then what was the purpose of the law and why did they have to keep it?

1a. Why are we not required to keep the law now?

1b. Why did Paul say in Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." If it is not by works anymore, then it must have been by works at some point.

2. People in the OT performed sacrifices (works) because God told them to (faith). Why did they have to perform sacrifices for the forgiveness (see the book of Leviticus) of sins if Jesus' blood was already covering their sins? (see Heb 10:4, 11)

3. Eze 18:1 "The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. 5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD." God is equating being just with keeping the law. Doing that which is lawful and right (works).

Eze 18:19 "Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live." Again, keeping the law (works) caused a person to live.

Eze 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." Do that which is lawful and right, works again.

Eze 18:22 "All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." When you die in your sins you go to Hell. If a person believes that salvation has always been the same, then you can lose your salvation according to this text.

Eze 18:25 "Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?" Again, loss of salvation.

4. If salvation has always been the same, how could King Saul lose his salvation? And Samson, he lost his and got it back. If salvation has always been the same, why can't I lose my salvation.

5. If you believe people in the OT were saved by looking forward to the cross, then do this. Pretend you are Adam. I just came up to you and asked how to stay out of Hell. Tell me. Now pretend you are Noah. I just walked up to you at that big boat you're building and asked you how I stay out of Hell. Tell me. OK, now you are Moses. How do I stay out of Hell Moses?

[ January 21, 2003, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: The Harvest ]

 

[Bugman]

"Also, please don't respond if you are not saved (ie no SDAs, no Calvinists, etc)"

So becasue I'm a Calvinist I'm not saved? Interesting.

Bryan

 

[Jim1999]

Also, please don't respond if you are not saved (ie no SDAs, no Calvinists, etc)
_____________________________________________

This statement is very offensive to many, many fine Christians. Do you mean one can be saved if they are not Calvinist?.......Just using reverse logic, which amounts to the same laugh.

I have editted out the offending portions, and leaving this post to show what was ommitted.

Cheers,

Jim,

Moderator

 

[Ransom]

Well, I thought about answering, but I guess I'm off the hook.

 

[The Harvest]

Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them . Psalms 119:165

My mistake.

 

[Pastor Larry]

FTR, I am a dispensationalist who disagrees entirely with your first post. Man has always been saved by grace in every generation. The Law was the civil constitution of Israel by which their society was governed. Keeping it showed that an individual had faith. Rom 4 shows that even in the OT, people were not saved by keeping the Law but rather by faith.

 

[tyndale1946]

Ditto brethren! ... Brother Glen

 

[The Harvest]

FTR, I am a dispensationalist who disagrees entirely with your first post. Man has always been saved by grace in every generation. The Law was the civil constitution of Israel by which their society was governed. Keeping it showed that an individual had faith.

You're a dispensationalist? Please give your definition of a dispensationalist.

Rom 4 shows that even in the OT, people were not saved by keeping the Law but rather by faith.

Prove it. Name one person in Romans 4 who lived under the law and was justified by faith.

Romans 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[Bible-belted]

You have to be kidding me.

David is the one that is mentuioned, I know you want to make a big deal out of the fact that Roamsn 4 says David "describeth" that the one who trusts in God and not his own works has that faith dredited as rightoeusness. It allows you (you think) to say that David did not experience that crediting, but ony described it.

Except that when you go back to the Psalm being quoted (32, particularly vv.3-5) you see that David is describing a personal experience.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by The Harvest:
You're a dispensationalist? Please give your definition of a dispensationalist.

Someone see the glory of God as the purpose of human history, who believes in a fundamental dichotomy between Israel and the church, and someone who uses a normal (literal) hermeneutic. Trust me, I am a dispensationalist. What you have said above is not dispensationalism; it is what some dispensationalists have erroneously taught.

Prove it. Name one person in Romans 4 who lived under the law and was justified by faith.

David. He described it because he experienced it. It is what Psalm 32 described. Your position is in contradiction to Gal 2 where it says that if righteousness could come by the Law, then Christ died in vain. According to your position, Christ did not have to die.

In every age, man has been saved by faith in God.

BTW, it is probably better not to cite whole chapter. It takes a lot of space. I woulc cite just the relevant portion.

 

[The Harvest]

No I'm not kidding.

David is the one that is mentuioned, I know you want to make a big deal out of the fact that Roamsn 4 says David "describeth" that the one who trusts in God and not his own works has that faith dredited as rightoeusness. It allows you (you think) to say that David did not experience that crediting, but ony described it.

Except that when you go back to the Psalm being quoted (32, particularly vv.3-5) you see that David is describing a personal experience.

OK it's obvious that you don't believe the Bible for what it says. Describeth means describeth. Read into it what you will.

Psalms 32 is prophetic of the Church Age, just like Ps 22.

How about this...name one person in the OT that was part of the body of Christ, had eternal security and was indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Caretaker]

Gal. 3:
24: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25: But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Heb. 11:
8: By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9: By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11: Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12: Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13: These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Eph. 2:

8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Siegfried]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Trust me, I am a dispensationalist.

No kidding.

I never thought I'd live to see the day when some poor soul questioned whether a person with your academic heritage was a dispensationalist.

 

[The Harvest]

Prove it. Name one person in Romans 4 who lived under the law and was justified by faith.

David. He described it because he experienced it. It is what Psalm 32 described. Your position is in contradiction to Gal 2 where it says that if righteousness could come by the Law, then Christ died in vain. According to your position, Christ did not have to die.

In every age, man has been saved by faith in God.

In Gal 2, Paul is not talking to people under the law. He is talking to people under Grace, so of course, they are not justified by the law.

Now, please understand that I don't believe that anybody made it to Heaven by the law. People in the OT went to Abraham's Bosom when they died with a good report and when Christ died on the cross, their sins were then forgiven AND paid for. Now they are justified.

BTW, it is probably better not to cite whole chapter. It takes a lot of space. I woulc cite just the relevant portion.

Thanks for the advice. The reason I did that was because I have noticed that there are a lot of people who use this service and do not believe the KJB to be the true Words of God. By putting the verses in, I'm making sure the KJB is at least being looked at.

 

[The Harvest]

Gal. 3:
24: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25: But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Eph. 2:

8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I'm not sure what your point is here. You are citing verses that apply to the church age. It's true that people in the OT had to have faith in God before they did the works they did. But if they had faith with no works, then there was no righteousness. (see Heb 11:4, 7, 30)

 

[The Harvest]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Trust me, I am a dispensationalist.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No kidding.

I never thought I'd live to see the day when some poor soul questioned whether a person with your academic heritage was a dispensationalist.

A bunch of framed pieces of paper on a wall does not make someone an expert. One of the most intelligent Pastors I know never spent one day in a seminary, Bible college or Bible Institute. He studied that Book and let the Holy Spirit teach him.

Now please don't take this as a personal attack. I'm just stating that it is not a requirement to have a bunch of degrees to know what you are talking about.

 

[The Harvest]

By the way, nobody is actually answering the questions in my orignal post.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by The Harvest:
In Gal 2, Paul is not talking to people under the law. He is talking to people under Grace, so of course, they are not justified by the law.

Yes, but his statement is universally true. If there is any other way for man to be saved, then Christ died in vain. No one in the OT was saved or "made safe" by keeping the Law. Their obedience to the Law was the evidence of their faith.

There is nothing prophetic about Psalm 32. David is writing this psalm of praise and blessing becuase he had experienced forgiveness.

The reason I did that was because I have noticed that there are a lot of people who use this service and do not believe the KJB to be the true Words of God. By putting the verses in, I'm making sure the KJB is at least being looked at.

I think we all accept the KJV to be the true words of God. Most of us hold the traditional fundamental/orthodox position that the KJV is not the only word of God.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by The Harvest:
By the way, nobody is actually answering the questions in my orignal post.

I did. The Law was, as I said, the civil constitution of Israel. The purpose of the Law was to govern life in Israel. We don't keep it now because we are not in Israel; we are in teh church.

 

[Siegfried]

Originally posted by The Harvest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Trust me, I am a dispensationalist.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No kidding.

I never thought I'd live to see the day when some poor soul questioned whether a person with your academic heritage was a dispensationalist.

A bunch of framed pieces of paper on a wall does not make someone an expert. One of the most intelligent Pastors I know never spent one day in a seminary, Bible college or Bible Institute. He studied that Book and let the Holy Spirit teach him.

Now please don't take this as a personal attack. I'm just stating that it is not a requirement to have a bunch of degrees to know what you are talking about.</font>[/QUOTE]I'm not talking about his level of education, but about where it's from. Unless I'm mistaken, he's studied under men, one in particular, who are known for their commitment to dispensationalism.