Questions

Do you believe that man's will is fallen to the extent that he can't respond to the Gospel? (ex. dead in sin)

Do you pray for unsaved loved ones to come to faith in Christ?

If you answered "no" to the first question and "yes" to the second, could you explain the inconsistent logic?

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Dr. James White asked the following questions during a written debate with Dave Hunt:

Is the atonement substitutionary?

Did Jesus take the penalty of sin for every person who has ever lived, is living, and ever will live?

If so, what was God's intention in laying the sin of every person on Christ?

Was it His purpose to make men savable, or to actually atone for their sins?

And if those sins have been borne by Christ and the punishment due them laid upon Him, upon what basis will those same sins be punished in those who reject Him?

Did Jesus, as the faithful High Priest, intercede for those who will never be saved?

And if so, what is the nature of this failed intercession?

And is it not true that Mr. Hunt and those who follow his views limit the atonement's effect and power, while Reformed theologians limit its scoope and intention?

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Does God desire the salvation of those who were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2.8)? .

Does God desire the salvation of those who, as natural brute beasts, are made to be taken and destroyed (2 Peter 2.12)? .

Does God desire the salvation of those who were before of old ordained to "this condemnation (Jude 4)"?

 

Brother [or sister]DQ,

What you believe about man and his will does have something to do with how you understand the questions asked.

Agreed.

What you suggest is based on a flawed assumption, that being, man does in fact will to believe or will to not believe. I thought you said “man’s will has nothing to do with it?” Well, it does and your post does in fact show it. This line of reasoning brings me to more questions, are we spiritually better and more capable of seeing the goodness in the Gospel offer and this is the reason why we accept? Why doesn’t the Holy Spirits wooing work on those who remain lost? Does God equally woo all men and women? If so, what about the millions of people that have died throughout history without hearing the Gospel, were they woo’ed?

If God made it clear to you why is it not clear to those who remain lost in their sins? What makes one better then the next, why does one accept and the other reject the Gospel offer if God is wooing both equally?

Why didn’t God remove the jungle, the thicket as you wrote from every lost persons path? And if God did, what was it in you that made your realize that what God was offering was a good deal?

Here’s how I see it:

John 6:44 [This is a classic passage demonstrating importance of God the Father drawing the saints to Christ.] NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6: 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. [Notice, ‘except.’ One cannot even see the Kingdom without the new birth.]

They believed because God granted them belief.

Acts 16: 14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, [God did it, not Lydia.] that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Acts 18: 27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Ephesians 2 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The Greek doesn't allow for any other understanding of this passage, grace AND faith are gifts of God.

Ephesians 2: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Philippians 1: 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, [It was given to them to believe.] but also to suffer for his sake;

2 Timothy 2: 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

John 8: 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even BECAUSE YE CANNOT HEAR MY WORD.

And why can’t they hear Christ’s word?

John 8: 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF GOD.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Rom. 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

“The Greek word at the base of the major word group meaning, “redeem,” “redeemer” and “redemption” is lou, which means “to loose” or “loosen.” It was used of loosening clothes or unbinding armor. When applied to human beings, it signified the loosing of bonds so that, for example a prisoner by means of a ransom in those cases it meant “to release by payment of a ranson price.” James M. Boice

It can be found here, it’s a great read I hope you enjoy it.

More flawed presuppositions.

I hope you won’t mind I placed point 1 & 3 in the same quote as they are related.

To be honest I fail to see how your points even deal with the passages listed, you offered no exegesis, just a few opinions that cannot be supported from reading the passage, it’s interjected as the passage reads, “those who were appointed to disobedience” [1 Pet. 2:8], “are made to be taken and destroyed” [2 Peter 2.12] and “this condemnation.” [Jude 4] Notice the words used in each passage: appointed, made and ordained. There is nothing in here about “failure to believe” unless you realize the failure to believe is in connection with appointed, made and ordained.

Agreed.

Brother [or sister] Skaypair,

It’s inconsistent because the decision is not up to God and God is already doing His best to woo [to borrow from DQ] all mankind. You’re better off spending all your time begging the sinner to repent, not asking God, God is already doing everything He can, right?

When asked, “Was it His purpose to make men savable, or to actually atone for their sins?” You answered “Both.” And to another question asked you posted, “Only at the point of repentance unto salvation would Christ get involved on their behalf at their request.”

In Hebrews 10 we read: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

How is it possible that Christ died to make men savable and died to atone for sins when we clearly read in Heb. 10:14 “he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified?” I love my KJV but for more clarity if it’s needed “For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.” ESV We know that Christ made one offer for sin for all time [v.12] and this offer ALWAYS results in the perfections of those for whom the offering was made [v.14]…how is it possible that Christ made atone for everyone? Wouldn’t the need logical step lead to Universalism?

So, what was it that Adam did in the Garden? Didn’t he transgress some kind of law or something, didn’t he disobey God’s command? What about Cain and Abel? I thought one was guilty of murder. Are you suggesting murder was only a sin after Moses or perhaps man didn’t know it was a sin to murder until after the Mosaic Law was delivered on Sinai?

What is Israel other then a group of individuals? I fail to see the Dispensational distinction working here.

In closing, I want to thank the good brothers [or sisters] for posting replies, they’re not easy questions to give answers to. My intention is not to fight and argue and the tone of my post may seem harsh but that’s not my intention at all, I simply want to understand non-Calvinist [dare I say Arminian] reasoning. That’s all.

Thanks.

~JM~

 

Hi Webdog,

All those who are drawn are raised up, as the passage teaches, those who are not drawn...logically speaking...are not raised up.

Really? That's not what the note in my Greek text book has to say. :BangHead:

“For by grace you have been saved by faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, so that no one should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB. I know the ESV renders touto as this, which may be more proper, but the following is an extract from an article I already had written:

There are two main interpretations of this text, both interpretations hinging on what is meant by the phrase and that, more specifically the pronoun that (NASB). This demonstrative pronoun has an antecedent to which it refers. So the question is, What is the that which is the gift of God?

1. The first interpretation takes it as referring to faith. This has been the view of many Bible scholars over the years, e.g. Augustine, Beza, Hodge, Kuyper, and Hendriksen. This is also the natural meaning one would take from the plain reading of the English text. If this interpretation is correct, then the question is immediately settled, faith is the gift. Those holding this view would paraphrase it like this, “By grace you have been saved through faith, and even your faith is not of yourselves; faith is a gift from God, so you cannot boast in the least.” Thus Paul is stressing here that even your faith is a gift in order to exclude the possibility of any boasting.

The difficulty with this view is as follows. In the Greek, that is a neuter demonstrative pronoun but faith is a feminine noun. The general rule would have the two agree in gender. Why would Paul use what may be viewed as awkward or incorrect grammar? Those who hold this first interpretation give several replies. For example, a pronoun usually but not always agrees with its noun in gender. There are exceptions to the general rule as can be seen in the Greek of Acts 8:10, Jude 12, 2 Pet. 2:17, 1 Pet. 2:19, 1 Cor. 6:11, and 1 Cor. 10:6 (Ref. A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p. 704). Examples may also be found in classical and Koine Greek where neuter pronouns are used to refer to both masculine and feminine nouns. It has also been suggested that the formula and that (Greek: kai touto) is often used in a technical sense to add special emphasis to the idea to which it is attached, and in this case it is attached to the word faith in the Greek as well as in the English translation. Finally, it is also generally true that a pronoun refers to the nearest antecedent or closest noun. Again, in this case, it is the word faith.

2. The other major interpretation has the word that referring back to the whole preceding thought, centering on the verb. This is the view of other well known scholars such as Calvin, Eadie, Matthew Henry, and John Gill. This view may have fewer difficulties and appeals to some direct grammatical parallels for support. There are four other sentences in the New Testament, all by Paul, which are grammatically parallel: 1 Cor. 6:6 and 6:8, Phil. 1:28, and Rom. 13:11. In each of these, the demonstrative pronoun, that, refers to the whole preceding clause or sentence with the thought centering on the verb. According to this view, Eph. 2:8-9 would be paraphrased thus, “By grace you have been saved through faith. But this salvation is not of yourselves, salvation is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast.”

This last interpretation is also readily adopted by those who deny that faith, itself, is a gift. They think that if that does not refer specifically to faith they have made their case. But there are a couple of snags here. First, in this interpretation, that refers to the whole idea of the preceding clause. It is not merely salvation which is the gift of God, but salvation through faith which is God’s gift. Hence, this doesn’t exclude faith as a gift. On the contrary, if the whole of salvation is the gift, then so are the parts that make up the whole and here that specifically includes faith. Faith is intrinsic to salvation. Secondly, even if somehow one could show that Paul did not mean to imply that faith is a gift here, that does not mean that Paul is denying that faith is a gift. He would simply be saying something else.

However, I personally favor the first view. If that doesn’t refer to faith then it must indeed refer to the idea of salvation. Yet, if we take Paul to mean “this being saved is not of yourselves” he would be somewhat guilty of needless repetition, for he has just said we are “saved by grace”, which by definition is not of ourselves. The whole context of Ephesians up to this point, and especially chapter 2, seems to be stressing the fact that it is all by God’s grace. We were made alive when we were yet dead, not in response to our faith. I think this is the point Paul is making: even our faith is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God!

written and posted by Jim Ellis here.
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RJS, why don't you pray for unsaved loved ones?

Peace,

j

 

Take it at face value...:thumbs:

It’s not a matter of mere logic but of simple fact:

In v.44 we read “No man can come to me.” Face value reading of this, no one can come to Jesus. In v.44 we also read “except the Father which hath sent me draw him.” Face value reading of this, unless God the Father who sent Christ draws them. Returning to v.44 we see “and I will raise him up at the last day.” Face value, they will be raised to everlasting life. Just to reinforce the context on this last section of this verse we see this same context being provided in John 6:40 were we read, “and I will raise him up at the last day.”

If all are drawn then all will be raised up to eternal life, since all are not going to be raised up to eternal life, then how can all be drawn?

Please visit the link for further info on this subject...as for your "exegesis," where is it? If I use your logic, "So, I should take your greek exegesis over other greek translators?"

I agree somewhat. What we disagree on is who the “whosoever wills” are.

I’m more concerned why RJS doesn’t offer prayer before the throne for unsaved loved ones.

Peace,

j

 

Webdog,

Sure, twist and rest, but all that are drawn will be raised up.

In v.44 we read “No man can come to me.” Face value reading of this, no one can come to Jesus. In v.44 we also read “except the Father which hath sent me draw him.” Face value reading of this, unless God the Father who sent Christ draws them. Returning to v.44 we see “and I will raise him up at the last day.” Face value, they will be raised to everlasting life. Just to reinforce the context on this last section of this verse we see this same context being provided in John 6:40 were we read, “and I will raise him up at the last day.”

If no man can come unless drawn by the Father the conclusion that caused confusion was inevitable.

Ahhh, in fact it was you who posted you didn’t want to read my sources! Barnes was Amyraldian for the record and Clarke was a Methodist which means Barnes isn’t an orthodox Calvinist and Clarke is Arminian. Both groups have been dealt with in the quote provided in green a few posts back. You did all that work for nothing.

Quote: This last interpretation is also readily adopted by those who deny that faith, itself, is a gift. They think that if that does not refer specifically to faith they have made their case. But there are a couple of snags here. First, in this interpretation, that refers to the whole idea of the preceding clause. It is not merely salvation which is the gift of God, but salvation through faith which is God’s gift. Hence, this doesn’t exclude faith as a gift. On the contrary, if the whole of salvation is the gift, then so are the parts that make up the whole and here that specifically includes faith. Faith is intrinsic to salvation. Secondly, even if somehow one could show that Paul did not mean to imply that faith is a gift here, that does not mean that Paul is denying that faith is a gift. He would simply be saying something else.

Well, the Greek text I was referring to is a standard in many Bible colleges and seminaries; it might be useful to consider the information in it. [Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar by William D. Mounce]


Allan,

That’s correct, I’ve never studied Greek in any official manner, but plain to in the near future…which is why I have the Greek text and work book by Mounce. It was given to me in January by a friend on the net. I’ve read the intro and the first chapter. If you consider that “studying Greek” then you are sadly mistaken, the note I’m referring to is in these two chapters.

What is revealing is how quick you are to call me a liar with pomp and theatrics.

“In judging others a man laboreth in vain; he often erreth, and easily falleth into sin; but in judging and examining himself he always laboreth to good purpose”

Jesus was asked a simple question, “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?” And how did Jesus respond? “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”

v. 28 what must we do, what work is to be performed?
v. 29 the work is God’s work

Stated plainly. This along with Eph. 2 doesn’t allow for what you’re suggesting. I see you like lists, here’s one that shows God is the one in control of salvation, Grace, the preaching of the Gospel, etc:

Did these folks have a choice?

Exodus 9:16 & Romans 9:17
- for this purpose have I raised thee up

Deuteronomy 2:30
- God harden the heart to direct history

Joshua 11:20
- harden those hearts

1 Samuel 2:25
- Jehovah was minded to slay them

Proverbs 16:4
- God made the wicked
- God made the wicked for the day of evil

Matthew 11:25
- hide these things from certain people

Matthew 13:10-15 & Isaiah 6:9-10
- spoke in parables to conceal the truth
see also Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10; John 12:40; Acts 28:27; Romans 11:9-10. It should be clear, the evangelical proclamation hardens some hearts.

Luke 2:34
- was set up for falling

John 9:39
- made blind

John 12:39-40
- they could not believe
- God blinded their eyes
- God harden their hearts

Romans 1:28
- God gave them over
- to do the things that are not fitting

Romans 9:22-23
- fitted for destruction, or prepared for destruction
- He (God) prepared for destruction to show His glory

2 Thessalonians 2:11
- God will send them strong delusion
- in order for them to believe the lie

1 Peter 2:8
- those who rejected Jesus
- were appointed

Jude 4
- marked out
- for THIS condemnation

2 Peter 2:12
- made to be taken
- and destroyed, hence made for destruction
- will perish

Revelation 13:8
- names were not written in the book of life

Revelation 17:17
- put in their hearts
- to fulfill His will

or, to state it a different way:

“Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil,” Prov. 16:4.

“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed,” I Peter 2:8.

“For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,” Jude 4.

“But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,” II Peter 2:12.

“For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished,” Rev. 17:17.

We also see “vessels of wrath” which by the Lord were “fitted unto destruction,” were “endured with much long suffering” in order that He might “show His wrath, and make His power known”; and with these are contrasted the “vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory” in order “that He might make known the riches of His glory” upon them (Rom. 9:22, 23).

 

“God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting,” Rom. 1:28; and the wicked, “after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up for himself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,” Rom. 2:5.

“God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie,” II Thess. 2:11.

“Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you,” Acts 13:41.

“For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them,” John 12:39, 40.

“Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the Devil and his angels,” Matt. 25:41

“For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind,” John 9:39.

“I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes,” Matt. 11:25.

“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine,” Matt. 7:6.

“But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let you pass by him; for Jehovah thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand, as at this day,” Deut. 2:30.

“For it was of Jehovah to harden their hearts, to come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, as Jehovah commanded Moses.” Joshua 11:20.

“For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth,” Rom. 9:17 (see also Ex. 9:16)

We can be sure at least one was elected never to come to Christ, the son of perdition in John 17, he was lost for fulfill Scripture.

"... And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? ..."

"Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia,they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia" (Acts 16:6)

Hummm…I wonder why there were not to preach in Asia?

This is too open ended. In what sense is faith a gift given by God?

That’s wonderful that you know Greek. Where did you study? What’s your background? Who did you study under? Which textbooks did you use? At what level did you study Greek? It seems you’re understanding is at odds with the one and only textbook I have access to and since you’ve already called me a liar I don’t know if I can trust you or not, you seem to have the spirit of contention.

Amity and Amy G,

Why pray to God if the final decision is up to man? It doesn’t make sense. You asking God to do something the Arminian tells us He can’t do…make the decision to believe.

Spurgeon wrote:
"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, I do.re are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."

Where? You’ve failed to show us, Amy didn’t either. Your response reminds me of the modern classic “Animal Farm” where ever the truth was being stated the sheep started bleeting to drown it out. “Two legs bad, four legs good.”

Forgive me for talking so long to respond family duties, my job, etc. take up much of my time.

You wrote the following: Please don't say because God says to pray for them because you don't know who the elect are.

Why not? What’s so illogical or unbiblical about this response? You haven’t even given one simple explanation why this response would be unreasonable. Do you know who will and will not accept the Gospel? I sure don’t. We are told, “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” It would be asinine to deny that God is working in us to BOTH will and to do His good pleasure and say, “And if they are not one of the elect all the prayers in the world are not going to save them.”

Well, I have to go please forgive my errors in spelling etc. I'm trying to answer as fast as possible. That’s all the time I have right now, see you soon, Deo valente.

~JM~