Quote from signature line

[guitarpreacher]

This qoute is from the signature line on Agnus_Dei's posts - "The Bible did not produce the Church, the Church produced the Bible. The Church is not built upon the Bible, it is built upon the apostles and prophets. Christ did not leave a written book to guide his Church, he left living men empowered by the Holy Spirit."

Do you really believe that Agnus?

 

[Salty]

for a link to Agnus

 

[Gold Dragon]

I'm pretty sure s/he is not baptist so you may want this moved to forums open to All Christians. I think s/he is a methodist in the process of converting to the EOC.

 

[LeBuick]

"The Bible did not produce the Church, the Church produced the Bible. The Church is not built upon the Bible, it is built upon the apostles and prophets. Christ did not leave a written book to guide his Church, he left living men empowered by the Holy Spirit."

Do you really believe that Agnus?

All I can say is, WOW... :BangHead:

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

This qoute is from the signature line on Agnus_Dei's posts - "The Bible did not produce the Church, the Church produced the Bible. The Church is not built upon the Bible, it is built upon the apostles and prophets. Christ did not leave a written book to guide his Church, he left living men empowered by the Holy Spirit."

Do you really believe that Agnus?

Agnus is not permitted to post in this particular forum.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Guitarpreacher,

"This qoute is from the signature line on Agnus_Dei's posts - "The Bible did not produce the Church, the Church produced the Bible. The Church is not built upon the Bible, it is built upon the apostles and prophets. Christ did not leave a written book to guide his Church, he left living men empowered by the Holy Spirit."

Do you really believe that Agnus?"

Sadly, yes, he does.

He is caught in the deadly tentacles and web of the Orthodox/Church of Rome counterfeit groups.

I have prayed for the opening of this dear ones eyes and still believe that in time they will in fact be opened.

Praise God!


:godisgood:

 

[guitarpreacher]

I didn't think to check the profile to see if agnus is baptist. If this would be better in another forum, maybe one of the mods could move it there.

 

[Salty]

According to his profile, Agnus is a Methodist, but attends St George Orthodox church

 

[Alive in Christ]

He is in the midst or converting to the "Orthodox" group.

The orthodox have a long, drawn out process that one must go through.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Do you really believe that Agnus?

Yes, really

"The Bible did not produce the Church, the Church produced the Bible. ​

The “Bible” in my signature refers to the “Bible” as you and I know it today. So yes, the Church was in existence before the Bible was complete. The Church is generally understood to have begun on the day of Pentecost. The Apostles had yet to pen anything in regard to our New Testament.

The Church is not built upon the Bible; it is built upon the apostles and prophets. Christ did not leave a written book to guide his Church,​

Since the Church pre-dates the Bible, the Church is clearly built upon the martyred blessed Apostles and prophets as Christ the Chief Cornerstone of the Church.

Nowhere in Holy Scripture do we read Christ instructing His Apostles to go forth and write a book, neither do we read in Holy Scripture where Christ left the Apostles any book to guide His Church.

Instead we read Christ instructing His Apostles to go out into the world baptizing and making disciples and lo, Christ will be with them until the end of the world.

he left living men empowered by the Holy Spirit."​

Christ promised to be with His Church until the end of the world and that the gates of hell would never prevail. Christ promised His Holy Spirit would guide them and remind them of all things. The Holy Apostles are long gone, asleep in the Lord, but the Holy Spirit continues to do His job and will continue until the end of the world.

In XC
-

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I'm pretty sure s/he is not baptist so you may want this moved to forums open to All Christians. I think s/he is a methodist in the process of converting to the EOC.

Yes, I was raised a fundamental Baptist, around 4 years ago I began to re-think my theological view...discovered John Wesley and was introduced to liturgical worship and the sacramental view of the Church. Discovered the Church Fathers, flirted with Roman Catholicism and eventually eneded up in the Orthodox Church 4years later.

In XC
-

 

[Agnus_Dei]

He is in the midst or converting to the "Orthodox" group.

The orthodox have a long, drawn out process that one must go through.

Ummm, no, not a particularly “long” process; generally one becomes a catechumen and attends catechesis which varies in length from Church to Church. Generally our head Pastor likes to see a Catechumen experience all the major feasts of the Church…Pascha and The Nativity of Christ to name a few. Our Pastor is involved in every step and when he believes you are ready, he’ll baptize you (if you’ve never been baptized by immersion) and then you’ll be Chrismated, then you are a member of the Holy Orthodox Church.

It took my family and I about 9 months to become members.

In XC
-

 

[Agnus_Dei]

According to his profile, Agnus is a Methodist, but attends St George Orthodox church

Wrong Church...I live in Wichita, KS, not Toledo, OH...here's my home Church...http://www.stgeorgecathedral.net/

In XC
-

 

[Marcia]

Agnus Dei said:
Nowhere in Holy Scripture do we read Christ instructing His Apostles to go forth and write a book, neither do we read in Holy Scripture where Christ left the Apostles any book to guide His Church.

Christ did not have to instruct his apostles because the Holy Spirit did - they wrote under the power and inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The church did not produce the Bible, the church discovered it.

Besides, most of scripture (the Old Testament) was already written before Jesus incarnated - Jesus referred to the OT as "scripture." The NT, as the OT was, was produced by God through the Holy Spirit.


"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. John 14.26

 

[Salty]

Wrong Church...I live in Wichita, KS, not Toledo, OH...here's my home Church...http://www.stgeorgecathedral.net/

In XC
-

Sorry, I thought I did have the Toledo church that cut and pasted.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Here are some examples of the toxic beliefs and practices that sadly, and tragically, exist in the Orthodox counterfiet group....

One of the first things that strikes a non-Orthodox visitor to an Orthodox church is the prominent place assigned to Holy Icons. The Iconostasis is covered with them, while others are placed in prominent places throughout the church building. The walls and ceiling are covered with iconic murals. The Orthodox faithful prostrate themselves before Icons, kiss them, and burn candles before them.

The are censed by the clergy and carried in processions. Considering the obvious importance of the Holy Icons, then, questions may certainly be raised concerning them: What do these gestures and actions mean? What is the significance of Icons? Are they not idols or the like, prohibited by the Old Testament?


Icons have been used for prayer from the first centuries of Christianity. Sacred Tradition tells us, for example, of the existence of an Icon of the Savior during His lifetime (the "Icon-Made-Without-Hands") and of Icons of the Most Holy Theotokos immediately after Him. Sacred Tradition witnesses that the Orthodox Church had a clear understanding of the importance of Icons right from the beginning; and this understanding never changed, for it is derived from the teachings concerning the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity -- Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The use of Icons is grounded in the very essence of Christianity, since Christianity is the revelation by God-Man not only of the Word of God, but also of the Image of God; for, as St. John the Evangelist tells us, "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14).


http://www.orthodoxfaith.com/doctrine_catechism.html.

Orthodox prayers to Mary...

Prayer at the Icon of the Theotokos

Tenderness springs forth from you, O Theotokos, make us worthy of compassion. Look upon sinful people, reveal your power for ever as we hope in you and cry aloud: Hail! as did the Archangel Gabriel, Chief Captain of the Bodiless Powers. Amen.

http://www.transchurch.org/sguide/praybk.htm

St. Gregory Palamas...

For this reason she pours forth from thence abundant grace upon those who honor her-for she is a receptacle of great graces-and she grants us even our ability to look towards her. Because of her goodness she lavishes sublime gifts upon us and never ceases to provide a profitable and abundant tribute in our behalf. If a man looks towards this concurrence and dispensing of every good, he will say that the Virgin is for virtue and those who live virtuously, what the sun is for perceptible light and those who live in it.

...in the endless age to come, without her mediation, every emanation of illuminating divine light, every revelation of the mysteries of the Godhead, every form of spiritual gift, will exceed the capacity of every created being. She alone has received the all-pervading fulness of Him that filleth all things, and through her all may now contain it, for she dispenses it according to the power of each, in proportion and to the degree of the purity of each. Hence she is the treasury and overseer of the riches of the Godhead. For it is an everlasting ordinance in the heavens that the inferior partake of what lies beyond being, by the mediation of the superior, and the Virgin Mother is incomparably superior to all. It is through her that as many as partake of God do partake

O divine, and now heavenly, Virgin, how can I express all things which pertain to thee? ... The eye of the intellect is through thee made limpid, and through thee the spirit of a man is illumined by the sojourning of the Spirit of God, since thou hast become the steward of the treasury of divine gifts and their vault, and this, not in order to keep them for thyself, but so that thou mightest make created nature replete with grace. Indeed, the steward of those inexhaustible treasuries watches over them so that the riches may be dispensed; and what could confine that wealth which wanes not? Richly, therefore, bestow thy mercy and thy graces upon all thy people, this thine inheritance, O Lady! Dispel the perils which menace us.

See how greatly we are expended by our own and by aliens, by those without and by those within. Uplift all by thy might: mollify our fellow citizens one with another and scatter those who assault us from without-like savage beasts. Measure out thy succor and healing in proportion to our passions, apportioning abundant grace to our souls and bodies, sufficient for every necessity. And although we may prove incapable of containing thy bounties, augment our capacity and in this manner bestow them upon us, so that being both saved and fortified by thy grace,... Amen.

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/dormition.html
www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/dormition.html

Very sad

:godisgood:

 

[LeBuick]

Yes, really

"The Bible did not produce the Church, the Church produced the Bible.

The Bible is the inspired Word of God. The same Word that became flesh and dwelt among us. The Church contains men. To say the Church wrote the Bible is to say the Bible was written by men and is man's word instead of the Word of God. That just isn't so.

The Church is not built upon the Bible; it is built upon the apostles and prophets.

The Church is built on the confession of faith. "...Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Nowhere in Holy Scripture do we read Christ instructing His Apostles to go forth and write a book, neither do we read in Holy Scripture where Christ left the Apostles any book to guide His Church.

The Gospel is what Christ lived and left with his disciples/Church. The Gospel is not a written book, it is the story of the death, burial and resurrection of our savior Jesus Christ. It was originally spread by word of mouth but the disciples later put it to paper so the accurate truth could live on.

Don't discredit the Bible because it was written by Man, what Man wrote was the Word of God.

 

[Alive in Christ]

LeBuick,

"The Gospel is what Christ lived and left with his disciples/Church. The Gospel is not a written book, it is the story of the death, burial and resurrection of our savior Jesus Christ. It was originally spread by word of mouth but the disciples later put it to paper so the accurate truth could live on."

Agreed. And the reason we know it is not of mans origin is because....

"ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, AND IS
PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR
CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS,
THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE COMPLETE, THOROUGHLY
EQUIPPED FOR EVERY GOOD WORK."

The scriptures where ultimately God breathed, with God being the author and man...in effect...being the "recorder"

Thats not to say the authors didnt use their mind...they did. But Almighty God still caused every word to be exactly as HE desired.

It is the instructions and wisdom that God wanted us to have, given to us directly from heaven...through human instruments.

And He condemns ANYTHING that is added to it or considered to be authoritative along with it.


:godisgood:

 

[Gold Dragon]

The Bible is the inspired Word of God. The same Word that became flesh and dwelt among us. The Church contains men. To say the Church wrote the Bible is to say the Bible was written by men and is man\'s word instead of the Word of God. That just isn\'t so.

I disagree that this is what Agnus_Dei is saying. I agree with him that the Bible did not produce the church. Christ built the church on the apostles and the existed several decades before most of the NT was written. I also agree with him that the church produced the Bible and I\'m sure all our Eastern Orthodox brethren will agree that the New Testament was written by God through his Church. The specific books of the bible were also canonized by the Church under God\'s direction. Of course, I would disagree with the Orthodox if they suggest that the Church therefore has authority that supercedes that of scripture.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Gold Dragon,

"I agree with him that the Bible did not produce the church. Christ built the church on the apostles and the existed several decades before most of the NT was written."

Ah, but that was only a temporary foundation. In short order all the apostles and prophets of that generation were gone.

And at that point the scriptures were completed by the adition of the new covenant scriptures.

And the scriptures...authored exculsively by God Himself using human instruments...have been the foundation (after Christ of course) ever since then.

"The apostles and prophets all died I also agree with him that the church produced the Bible..."

No it didnt.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for reproof, correction, instruction in rightiousness, etc..."

The church did not produce the scriptures, they were given to them by Almighty God.

To say the church produced the bible would be like you posting a post on here, and then saying..."Look, my computer just composed and posted this message!"

No it didnt. YOU composed the post, using the computer as the instrument to get your thoughts onto the web-site.


:godisgood: