Rapture: hocus-pocus

[Ed Edwards]

Sorry Brother R. Charles Blair, i don't seem
to have enough time for developing 3rd level
references to the end times story. I seem to
spend all my time defending the clear
and consistant understanding
of the primary passages.

Brumleyj: "I did not see rebuilt temple and
millenual temple from bible"

Of course you can't.
You don't know what the Abominations
of Desolation /AOD/ (see Matthew 24:15) is.
In the AOD the antichrist must go into
the temple and defile it, probably by announcing
that the antichrist is God. Hello, how can
a real antrchirst defile a spiritual temple?

Which temple is Ezekiel speaking of in
Ezekiel 40-43? Which kingdom is Ezekiel speaking
of in Ezekiel 44-48. I say the physical
Millennial Kingdom of our Lord and Savior:
Messiah Ieseus.

Sorry, i forget, Ezekiel 39-48 is ommitted
from postie bibles along with Revelation 20.
Both passages scrapped because posties
don't understand the concept of SUMMARY
in 2 Peter 3:10. Hello, both Ezekiel 39-44
and Revelation 20 are in the semicolen (
om 2 Peter 3:10 after "night" and before "in".

Another problem is that most posties have
a problem using any proof beyond their own
twist of scripture -- you know, evidence like
the study of history

Anyway, the data in this paragraph is NOT based
on the Bible but on a coversation i had
in 1988 with a rabbinical student in New York.
Aren't comptuers wonderful? This full bearded
Orthodox Jew would rather die than have the
very shadow of a gentile like myself even cross
his body. Yet the screen-to-screen nature of the
computer media (well in '88 there werent' pictures)
let him speak to me.
I asked: How will you know that the Messiah has
come? Here is the three things the Rabbi-student
said:
1. peace will be brought to Yisrael
2. the daily sacrifice will be restored
3. the Temple in Yierusalem shall be rebuilt.

Well, here is my thoughs on what this
student-Rabbi said which is not in the Bible -
well, what he said is not in the Bible, but i
beleive that what he said is TRUE and is representative
of the non- Christian Jewish mind.
And by the way, it is an archinsult to even
mention "Christ" or "Christian" to a Jew. Too many of
them remember being killed in the past in the name:
"Christ", by Christians. BTW, "Christ" is NOT a name
as some pinheaded people use it, but is a title
meaning "chosen one of God". Well the Hebrew
title for the "chosen one of God" is "Messiah".

The Jews have it backwards, they say the one who
is Messiah will do these things, in reality it will
be the one who does these things will be called
"Messiah" but will be the antimessiah (gentiles call
him the antichrist). It will take awile to
rebuild the Temple on what is called "Temple Mount"
but was in the Old Testament called "Mount Zion".
I can see that being 3-1/2 years to build, in these
modern times. Recall that in the Time Jesus
there was a major reconstruciton of the Temple going on,
yet the daily sacrifice was going on. The daily sacrifice
only needs a space in the right place on Temple Mound.
That space is inside the walls of the temple and is
not needed for the construciton. The daily sacrifice
can be begun the same day that antimessiah proclaimes
the peace with Yisrael, the time plan for
the construction of the. Those of you who
stay behind after the pretribulation rapture remember
my prediction: the treaty will be for 7-more
years, the planned construction for 3½-years.
During the time until the planned construciton the
Antichrsit produces a complete temple, the
daily sacrifice will be made and antimessiah shall
consolidate his antikingdom. Then at the middle
of the treaty period, antimessiah shall go into
the temple (perchance to dedicate it?) and instead
commit the AOD. Antimessiah shall declare himself
god. Many millions Jews watching on TV will see
suddenly that Messiah is not the antichrist
by the Jesus you lived some 2,000 years ago.
Then antimessiah will reign completely for 3½-years.

But hey, this is just a short summary out of
my head. (this is NOT being copied from some
shuckster millionare fiction author).

Have a nice day.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Tonight, I have to work - 3rd shift. I will discuss on the temple tomorrow with verses.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[brumleyj]

ed

ezekiel 39-48 is talking about new heaven and new earth after second advent same as rev 21,22 and 2 peter 3:10 all scripture fit well.

but you pulling o ut context of 2 peter 3:10 you have to read 2 peter 3:7-13. Peter was looking foward new earth and new heaven at second advent.

Isaiah 65:17-25 is refer to new heaven and new earth zechariah 14:6-10,joel 3:16-20

brumleyj
ps 27:1
amem

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by brumleyj:
ezekiel 39-48 is talking about new heaven and new earth after second advent same as rev 21,22 and 2 peter 3:10 all scripture fit well.

The war in Ezekiel 39
is in the new heaven and new earth?
Better check the references and not
depend on your memory.

Sorry, need to go to bed tonight
and to work tomorrow. Will comment
more on these matters Monday night.

 

[R. Charles Blair]

Brother Ed -"Third Level" because they don't fit dispensational theology? Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

[R. Charles Blair]

Brother Ed - "Third level" because they don't fit dispensational theology? Best- Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

[R. Charles Blair]

Oops -sorry about the "double post" - there was a "flood protection" on the thread, and I thought the first one had been lost. Charles

 

[Ed Edwards]

Please, Mr. Blair, when you goad me next on
these scriptures, please remind me what
they are so i don't have to waste my time
looking them up again. Thank you.

BTW, you did notice 3/4 of all I say i've
already typed???

I'm 16 posts behind on typing posts for
these series. Sorry, i have to work for
a living.

 

[Ed Edwards]

brumleyj: "but you pulling out context of
2 Peter 3:10 you have to read 2 Peter 3:7-13."

Sorry, you are out of context. The context
is 2 Petre 3:1-18.

The heart of the message here
is 2 Peter 3:14 (NLT):

" ... make every effort to
live a prue and blamless life. ... "

So a SUMMARY of 2 Peter 3 might be this:
To live a pure and blameless life so
you will be ready no matter
what happens.

 

[Ed Edwards]

For some reason i have to take some heat
because i use non-Biblical terms to define
precisely what i'm talking about. Simple
people, whom half the time nobody knows what
they are talking about, they are doing better?

I use "Jewish Isreali elect saints".
This phrase is NOT in the Bible. But the four
words are Biblical. In the O.T. they
were called "Isreali" until the ten northern
tribes went into captivity.
Then they were called Jews until Jesus
came to set up the Messianic Kingdom.
Had the Jews
believed Jesus then, the Millinnial Kingdom
of Jesus would have began. But these
Jews did not, and God turned to the Gentiles
and the Gentile age began. These people
were still known as Jews.
Someday at the pretribulaltion the mostly
gentile (but with some messanic Jews) will
be raptured from the is earth before the
Tribulation period. God will then continue
his plan for the Jewish Isreali elect saints,
the plan for the gentiles being done.

I have no idea what these people will be called
in the Tribulation Period, i'm going to call
them: "Jewish Isreali elect saints".

 

[postrib]

Greetings in Jesus' name,

From the post in this thread made on March 14, 2004 05:15 PM:
". . . Ezekiel 39-48 is ommitted from postie bibles along with Revelation 20 . . . "

The post-trib view allows for there to be a millennium. Revelation 20 must occur after the second coming of Revelation 19 because the millennium will not begin until after the resurrection of the church (Revelation 20:6), and those Christians martyred under the reign of the Antichrist will also reign with Christ for the thousand years (Revelation 20:4).

Just as Christ's kingdom exists now in heaven (Revelation 3:21), and exists now within our hearts (Luke 17:21), so Christ's kingdom will exist "over all the earth" during the millennium (Zechariah 14:9-21; Psalms 2:8-12; Micah 4:2-3), during which time resurrected believers will "live and reign with Christ" "on the earth" (Revelation 5:10; Revelation 20:4-6), breaking earthly nations to shivers with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-27). During the millennium Jerusalem will be made very holy (Zechariah 14:20-21; Isaiah 4:2-6).

It's possible that Ezekiel 40-48's highly detailed picture of a rebuilt temple and a prince making repeated sin offerings to make reconciliation for himself and for Israel (Ezekiel 45:22; 45:17; contrast Hebrews 7:27) refers only to what might have occurred if Israel had repented properly, that is, it is a conditional vision intended to make Israel ashamed as they compared it with their current situation (Ezekiel 43:10-11).

From the post in this thread made on March 14, 2004 05:15 PM:
". . . most posties have a problem using any proof beyond their own twist of scripture . . . "

Can you give some specific examples of how you feel the post-trib pre-mill view twists scripture?

From the post in this thread made on March 14, 2004 05:15 PM:
". . . the one who does these things will be called 'Messiah' but will be the antimessiah (gentiles call him the antichrist) . . . "

Actually, there will be a false Messiah who will arise to rule Israel who will be a different person than the Antichrist and who will be a false "prince of the covenant" whom the Antichrist will "cut off" or "make a covenant with" or "make a league with" (Daniel 9:26; 11:22-23). The Hebrew word translated as "cut off" in Daniel 9:26 is karath (Strong's #3772), the definitions of which include "to covenant (i.e. make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces)." Karath is translated as "covenanted with" in 2 Chronicles 7:18 and Haggai 2:5, and is translated as "made a league with" in 1 Samuel 22:8. After making his treaty with the false Messiah, the Antichrist will allow him and his followers to continue for a few years to offer sacrifices in a temple they will have rebuilt in Jerusalem, but then the Antichrist will suddenly break the treaty and stop all sacrifices and sit in the temple himself and proclaim himself to be God above all gods (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15; Daniel 9:27, 11:31-36, 12:11-12; Revelation 13:4-6).

From the post in this thread made on March 14, 2004 05:15 PM:
". . . after the pretribulation rapture . . . "

No scripture says that the rapture will be before the tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31 shows Jesus coming and gathering together His elect in the rapture after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to this same coming and gathering together (verse 1) and confirms that it can't happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8). Revelation 13:10 and Revelation 14:12-13 confirm that we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we will need patience and faith during that time.

The danger with the pre-trib teaching is that it attempts to give the church a false hope that it won't have to be on the earth during the tribulation. When this false hope fails, and the church enters into the tribulation suffering, many in the church could become offended with God that He would allow them to suffer like that (Matthew 24:9-13); or some in the church could even be deceived into thinking that the enemy has been able to somehow thwart God's will. But if we approach the tribulation knowing that Jesus has clearly warned us ahead of time what we must suffer (Mark 13:23), and that we must endure unto the very end (Matthew 24:13), we will have a better chance of not being offended and of not being deceived when the suffering comes, and we will be better prepared to remain on the earth with patience and faith (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), no matter what happens.

From the post in this thread made on March 15, 2004 12:20 AM:
". . . Peter was looking foward new earth and new heaven at second advent . . . "

In 2 Peter 3:10-13, the Apostle Peter is referring to that "day" which will begin with the second coming and end after the millennium, the battle of Gog and Magog, and the while throne judgment (Revelation 19:11-21:1), the same thousand-year "day" that the prophet Zechariah is referring to in Zechariah 14:20-21, which will continue "in summer and in winter" (Zechariah 14:8-9) and "from year to year" (Zechariah 14:16), for a thousand years are as a day in the Lord's sight (2 Peter 3:8).

From the post in this thread made on March 15, 2004 09:57 PM:
". . . I have no idea what these people will be called in the Tribulation Period, i'm going to call them: 'Jewish Isreali elect saints' . . . "

The believers who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be from every nation (Revelation 7:9-14), not just physical Israel. And they will be members of the church, which is made up of all believers of all time, whether Jewish or Gentile (1 Corinthians 12:13), for there is only one faith, and only one body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23).

The Old Covenant has been "abolished" and "done away" with, for it has been completely replaced by the New Covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-18; Hebrews 8:6-13; Colossians 2:14-16). The Christians in the tribulation will be under the New Covenant, for they will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14), will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13).

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to all of us the truth regarding all of these matters.

 

[brumleyj]

i agree with you posttrib 100 percent. amem preach it

brumleyj
ps 27:1
amem

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by brumleyj:
i agree with you posttrib 100 percent. amem preach it

You agree with this then,
Brothre BrumleyJ?

"Revelation 20 must occur after the second coming of Revelation 19 because the millennium will not begin until after the resurrection of the church (Revelation 20:6), and those Christians martyred under the reign of the Antichrist will also reign with Christ for the thousand years (Revelation 20:4)."

 

[brumleyj]

Psalm 9:4-8
4] For thou hast miantained my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right.
5] Thou hast rebuked the heathen,thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out thier name for ever and ever.
6] O thou enemy,destructions are come to a prepetual end; and thou hast destroyed cites; thier memorial is perished with them.
7] but the Lord shall endure for ever; he hath prepared his throne judgment.
8} and he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Psalm 10:15-18
15) Break thou the arm of the wicked and the evil man: seek out his wickedness till THOU FIND NONE.
16) The Lord is King for ever and ever; the heathen are perished out of his hand.
17) Lord, thou hast heard the deisre of the humble; thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear;
18) To judge the fatherless and the oppressed, that the man of the earth may no more oppress.

Psalm 45:6
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Psalm 22:27-28
27) All the ends of the world shall remeber and turn unto the Lord; and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28) For the kingdom is the Lord's and he is the governor among the nations.

Isaiah 24:4-12 and 25:3-5 are same as 2 peter 3:10-12

Isaiah 25:8 is same as 2 cor 15:51-54

Isaiah 24:17-22 for unsaved people will come out hell for wait final judgement at second advent same as rev 20:6,11 and 12-15, Isaiah 26:14-16 and 19.

yes old testmant saints are expecting for coming of Kindgom.

i understand them very clear about final estalishment of the new heavens and the new earth. it means next new age will be enterality kindgom

you have to read Isaiah 24 through 26 chapter help you understand what they are talking about final judgement and new heaven and new earth.

brumleyj
ps 27:1
amem

 

[Ed Edwards]

BrumleyJ: "Isaiah 24:4-12 and 25:3-5 are same as 2 peter 3:10-12"

Well, they are both future for us, that they
have in common. 2 Peter 3:10-12 speaks of the
final disalusion of the earth thousands of years
after the Tribulation Period spoken of in
the Isaiah references. But they do happen in
our future.

BrumleyJ: "Isaiah 25:8 is same as 2 cor 15:51-54"

Amen brother, 2 Cor 15:51-54 speaks of the
pretribulation rapture and Isaiah 25:8 speaks of
the heaven where the raptured/resurrected will
be taken.

BrumleyJ: "Isaiah 24:17-22 for unsaved people will come out hell for wait final judgement at second advent same as rev 20:6,11 and 12-15, Isaiah 26:14-16 and 19.

Unfortunately not.
You speak of the resurrection of the
dead 1,000 years after the second advent of Jesus.
Isaiah 24:17-22 speaks of the judgment against the
enemies of Israel during the Tribulation Period.
Revelation 20:6 and Revelation 20:11 are seperated
by 1,000 years, 20:6 speaks of the rewards that
some church age saints will get serving with
Jesus in his literal/physical Millinnial Kingdom,
20:11 speaks of the unsaved peopleyou metioned,
but not at the second advent but at the end of
the millinnial kingdom.
I'd have to study Isaiah 26 to see what it says,
but your batting average is so low i doubt if
it has anything to do with "unsaved people will come out hell for wait final judgement".

 

[brumleyj]

2 cor 15:51-54 is not saying pretribualtion rapture. Paul saying rapture/frist ressurection will occur at second coming of christ

revelation 20 is not saying resurrection of dead after end of 1,000 years peroid.

revelation 20:6,11 is not seperated. there is no two or three judgment found in revealtion 20 chapter only ONE judgment of christ at second advent. you understand that thousands is symoblic not literal.

2 peter 3:10-13 is not saying end of thousand peroid. it saying destorying evil things on earth at second advent. NO evil left on earth after second advent.

brumleyj
ps 27:1
amem

 

[Ed Edwards]

BrumleyJ: "2 peter 3:10-13 is not saying end of thousand peroid. it saying destorying evil things on earth at second advent. NO evil left on earth after second advent."

Your understanding of 2 Peter 3:10-13 conflicts
with Revelation chapter 20. What do you do if
one scripture appears to conflict with another?
You have to change your understanding of one
or both of the scriptures.

BTW and IMHO you limit you understanding when
you limit the scripture to 2 Peter 3:10-13,
use the whole chapter 3. What is the purpose of
2 Peter chapter 3? IMHO it is to encourage
a holy life. The purpose is NOT to outline a
set of future events. It speaks of a
1,000 year day and then "the day of the Lord".
This is NOT a time to go literal on "day".

I recommend construing of 1 Peter 3:10
as a summary, not a step by step cookbook
formula.

What is Revelation 20 about?
The whole of Revelation 20 is to set up
a detailed future history of the world
so the saints can be ready.
So if it says the two types of saints
in Revelation 20:4 are going to serve
with Jesus for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:6), they will
serve with Jeus for 1,000 years.
If it says that Just after the second Advent
(19:11-21) that Satan will be bound
for 1,000 years (20:1-2), Satan will be
bound for 1,000 years.
If it says after the 1,000 years that the
dead will live again (Revelation 20:5)
then after 1,000 years the dead will live again.
IF it says the unjust dead are judged
after the 1,000 years (Rev. 20:11+) then
the unjust dead are judged at the end of the
millinnium.

2 peter 3:10 is just a summary of Revelation
19-22. Hello! one verse summaries of four
chapters worth of details tend to leave
out the occassionl detail.

 

[brumleyj]

im tired im going to bed early tonight and going to chatt tenn to see my old friend on weekend. i will disuss with you later next week.

brumleyj
ps 27:1
amem

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by brumleyj:
im tired im going to bed early tonight and going to chatt tenn to see my old friend on weekend. i will disuss with you later next week.

May God's love
and Watch-care be on you strong!

 

[postrib]

Greetings in Jesus' name,

From the post in this thread made on March 18, 2004 03:18 PM:
". . . unsaved people will come out hell for wait final judgement at second advent . . . "

No scripture says or requires that any unbelievers will be eternally judged immediately at the second coming. 1 Corinthians 4:5 and 2 Timothy 4:1 show that believers will be judged at the second coming (Revelation 19), but Revelation 20:7-15 makes clear that unbelievers won't be eternally judged until after the millennium and the battle of Gog and Magog.

From the post in this thread made on March 18, 2004 08:00 PM:
". . . 2 Cor 15:51-54 speaks of the pretribulation rapture . . . "

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 doesn't say that the rapture will be before the tribulation.

From the post in this thread made on March 18, 2004 08:00 PM:
". . . Isaiah 25:8 speaks of the heaven where the raptured/resurrected will be taken . . . "

Isaiah 25:8 refers to the earth, not heaven. The marriage supper of the Lamb will happen on the earth after Christ fights the armies that gathered at Armageddon (Revelation 19:17; Isaiah 25:6-9).

If we endure to the end of the tribulation (Matthew 24:13), we which are alive and remain on the earth will certainly be raptured as high as the clouds to meet Jesus as He descends from heaven at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), but no scripture says we will be raptured all the way into the third heaven.

From the post in this thread made on March 18, 2004 08:34 PM:
". . . NO evil left on earth after second advent . . . "

Zechariah 14:3-5 shows the second coming of Christ and Zechariah 14:6-21 shows what will occur on the earth subsequent to the second coming. There will be unbelievers "left" after the second coming (Zechariah 14:16; compare Matthew 24:40), "heathen" nations who won't come up to worship Jesus without great punishment (Zechariah 14:17-19; see also Psalms 2:8-12), unbelieving nations which believers will rule over with a rod of iron during the millennium and break to shivers like a potter's vessel (Revelation 2:26-27).

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.