Rapture: hocus-pocus

[Ed Edwards]

Postrib: "1 Corinthians 15:51-54 doesn't say that
the rapture will be before the tribulation"

Nor does the passage say anything about the rapture timing
with respect to the Tribulation period. In fact, the
passage says nothing about the Tribulation period.
This passage tells about resurrections. I was hoping
you could keep your passagers straight.
Still this passage speaks of the pretribulation rapture
cause that is the big rapture. The rapture after the
Tribulation Period will be minor because the only
non-Jewish saved persons who survive the killing forces
of the Antichrist will be a few that got overlooked.
In the days of Antichrist most non-Jewish beleivers will
be still-born Christians - those who first confess Jesus
as Lord and who die the same day. But think of the
glorious Martyr's crowns they will win!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by postrib:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> From the post in this thread made on March 18, 2004 08:34 PM:
". . . NO evil left on earth after second advent . . . "

Zechariah 14:3-5 shows the second coming of Christ and Zechariah 14:6-21 shows what will occur on the earth subsequent to the second coming. There will be unbelievers "left" after the second coming (Zechariah 14:16; compare Matthew 24:40), "heathen" nations who won't come up to worship Jesus without great punishment (Zechariah 14:17-19; see also Psalms 2:8-12), unbelieving nations which believers will rule over with a rod of iron during the millennium and break to shivers like a potter's vessel (Revelation 2:26-27).
</font>[/QUOTE]Amen, Brother Postrib -- Preach it!

 

[brumleyj]

ed, posttrib

zechariah 14:5b
and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

it tell us that rapture will occur at second advent.

zechariah 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

see joel 2:10, acts 2:20,matthew 24:29,rev 6:12-14

all scriputres tell us it must happening at second advent.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ephesians 4:4-6 (KJV1679):

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Still looking for that one rapture,
one resurrection of the dead,
one Second Coming.

See here are the terms i use:

Second Coming - the whole event
including two parts where Jesus
leaves heaven and comes to earth:

1. the rapture event before the
tribulation period
2. the Second Advent event after
the tribulation period

Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

1R. Jesus comes for His own
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy.
11SC. Time of sorrow.

 

[postrib]

Greetings in Jesus' name,

From the post in this thread made on March 21, 2004 09:52 AM:
". . . [1 Corinthians 15:51-54] speaks of the pretribulation rapture cause that is the big rapture . . . "

Neither 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 nor any other passage of scripture speaks of a pretribulation rapture.

From the post in this thread made on March 22, 2004 04:32 PM:
". . . rapture will occur at second advent . . . "

Agreed.

From the post in this thread made on March 23, 2004 08:15 AM:
". . . Second Coming - the whole event including two parts . . . "

No scripture refers to or requires multiple parts of the second coming whereby He comes, goes back to heaven for some years, and then comes back again a third time. There's no third coming.

From the post in this thread made on March 23, 2004 08:15 AM:
". . . Jesus comes with His own . . . "

The scriptures don't say that there will first be a future coming of Jesus for His own, and then a subsequent coming with His own. Instead, they refer to a single future coming of Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 says that He will come with believers at the rapture (compare 1 Thessalonians 3:13). There's no third coming.

From the post in this thread made on March 23, 2004 08:15 AM:
". . . Jesus comes in the air . . . "

There's no scripture which says that at the rapture Jesus is coming down only as far as the air, and not to the earth. Some argue that this must be the case because 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 doesn't say that Jesus lands on the earth after we meet Him in the clouds. But then by the same logic they would have to say that Matthew 24:29-31 isn't the second coming either, because it doesn't show Jesus landing on the earth after He gathers together the elect. Acts 1:11 says that Jesus will come back in like manner as He left. He ascended from the earth into the clouds and on into heaven; He will descend from heaven into the clouds and on to the earth. The rapture will be our meeting Him in the clouds before He lands on the earth. There's no third coming.

From the post in this thread made on March 23, 2004 08:15 AM:
". . . end of the Gentile Age . . . "

The "times of the Gentiles" referred to in Luke 21:24 can't be fulfilled before the tribulation because they will still be treading down Jerusalem during the tribulation (Revelation 11:2).

From the post in this thread made on March 23, 2004 08:15 AM:
". . . Saved are delivered from wrath . . . "

There will be many people with salvation in the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9, 14), so we can be in the great tribulation without being appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

From the post in this thread made on March 23, 2004 08:15 AM:
". . . Rev 6:12-17 . . . "

Some of those who hold the position that the rapture will be after the tribulation don't believe that the sixth seal must necessarily be God's wrath, but that the people could be only thinking that it's His wrath (Revelation 6:17), just as the suffering that was brought against Job wasn't actually God's wrath even though Job thought that it was (Job 19:11). No one in heaven calls the seals (Revelation 6) or trumpets (Revelation 8-9) of the tribulation God's wrath. They only call the vials of the tribulation (Revelation 16) God's wrath, and none of the vials will be directed against the believers who will be on the earth.

From the post in this thread made on March 23, 2004 08:15 AM:
". . . No Signs precede the Rapture . . . "

None of the scriptures related to Christ's future coming teach or require an imminent coming of Christ; they refer only to the second coming and to our continual looking forward to that event. In fact, the Bible expressly teaches the opposite of imminence, for 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 says that Christ can't come and gather together the church until after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 9:27, 11:31-36, 12:11), which can't occur until after the Jewish temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem; Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13 shows the church in the tribulation; and Matthew 24:29-31 says that Jesus will come to gather together the church after the tribulation.

From the post in this thread made on March 23, 2004 08:15 AM:
". . . 1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44 . . . "

Jesus won't come as a thief upon believers who are spiritually awake (1 Thessalonians 5:4-6; compare Revelation 3:3).

Jesus' coming as a thief will in no way be before the tribulation. In Revelation 16:15, Jesus is promising a blessing to the faithful saints who are still on the earth during the sixth vial, at the very end of the tribulation, because by that time He still hasn't yet come as a thief.

In Matthew 24:36-51, Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as Matthew 24:3-35, "immediately after the tribulation" (v. 29-30). There's no third coming.

From the post in this thread made on March 23, 2004 08:15 AM:
". . . Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11) . . . "

The scriptures nowhere teach that the church and Israel are mutually exclusive. Such a dispensationalism is a mistaken ecclesiology that was invented out of whole cloth in an attempt to support a mistaken eschatology of a pre-trib rapture, which the scriptures also nowhere teach.

The believers who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be from every people (Revelation 7:9-14), not just Israel, and they will be members of the church, for they (like other Christians) will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14), will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13).

Believing Gentiles have become Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29) and fellow citizens in believing Israel (Ephesians 2:12-19), grafted into the tree of believing Israel (Romans 11:17).

All believing Jews and all believing Gentiles are baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13).

The church and "the Jews" (or Israel) aren't mutually exclusive, for Peter and Paul and Barnabas are all Apostles of the church and Jews (or Israel) at the same time (Romans 11:1; Galatians 2:13-15; Acts 22:3; Acts 21:39), just as Aquila and Apollos are members of the church and Jews at the same time (Acts 18:2; Acts 18:24), and just as the early church included thousands of Jews who were believers (Acts 21:20), and just as the church today still includes a great many believing Jews.

From the post in this thread made on March 23, 2004 08:15 AM:
". . . No judgement mentioned on earth . . . "

There will be temporal judgment on the earth at the rapture (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

From the post in this thread made on March 23, 2004 08:15 AM:
". . . sheep/goats judgement . . . "

Matthew 25:31-46 doesn't require that Christ eternally judge unbelievers immediately after His second coming, only that He eternally judge them sometime subsequent to His second coming. The judgment of unbelievers isn't seen at the second coming (Revelation 19), but is seen after the millennium and the battle of Gog and Magog (Revelation 20:7-15). The thousand years is clearly mentioned in the context of Revelation 20:7-15.

The first part of Matthew 25:46 refers to the casting of the wicked into the lake of fire after the millennium (Revelation 20:15). The second part of Matthew 25:46 refers to those believers who will come to faith in Christ during the millennium (which conversion Christ previously revealed to the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 66:19-21), and who will then be judged at the white throne judgment with all unbelievers, but unlike the unbelievers, their names will be found written in the book of life (Revelation 20:15).

From the post in this thread made on March 23, 2004 08:15 AM:
". . . Time of sorrow . . . "

The rapture will at the same time be a time of sorrow for unbelievers and a time of joy for believers (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

-

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.

 

[brumleyj]

sheep/goat judgment is refer to matthew 13:24-30 and 37-42, matthew 25:31-34,46 tell us Chirst will judge both after second advent. it does not saying judge both after millennium

brumleyj
ps 27:1
amem

 

[Ed Edwards]

Brumleyj: "sheep/goat judgment is refer to matthew 13:24-30 and 37-42, matthew 25:31-34,46 tell us Chirst will judge both after second advent. it does not saying judge both after millennium"

I note that these are two different judgements.
I note that that the millennial kingdon is AFTER the second advent.

Postrib: //In Matthew 24:36-51, Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as Matthew 24:3-35, "immediately after the tribulation" (v. 29-30). There's no third coming.//

The Bible certainly does not use the term "third coming".
The Old Testament never mentions a second coming.

Even if you believe Jesus will come again only once, it
is the forth coming:

1. Jesus appears in the firey furnace to King Neb
2. Jesus born as a baby in Bethlehem
3. Jesus returns to earth after going to hell
between the crucifiction and the resurrection
4. next coming

I believe in the 4th and 5th comings

1. Jesus appears in the firey furnace to King Neb
2. Jesus born as a baby in Bethlehem
3. Jesus returns to earth after going to hell
between the crucifiction and the resurrection
4. rapture/resurrection of the church age saints
5. Second Advent to defeat the Antichrist

Does anybody want to talk about "day"?
The prophetic "day" means "the appropriate time."
The preophetic "hour" means "the appropriate time."
In God's economy day equals hour.
In God's economy 1,000 years equals 1 day (2 Peter 3:8)

 

[Jim Ward]

Ed, you said:

"In God's economy 1,000 years equals 1 day (2 Peter 3:8)"

I do believe you are reading something into that verse that is not clearly there. Please read it again, there is a comparison being made, not a dogmatic fact. Notice the text doesn't say "a day is a thousand years" but instead says is as. That little word 'as' makes all the difference with the meaning of 2 Peter 3:8.


Jim

 

[brumleyj]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Brumleyj: "sheep/goat judgment is refer to matthew 13:24-30 and 37-42, matthew 25:31-34,46 tell us Chirst will judge both after second advent. it does not saying judge both after millennium"

I note that these are two different judgements.
I note that that the millennial kingdon is AFTER the second advent.

come on it does not saying two different judgements. ONLY ONE JUDGEMENT at second advent not at end of the millennial kindgom.

Postrib: //In Matthew 24:36-51, Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as Matthew 24:3-35, "immediately after the tribulation" (v. 29-30). There's no third coming.//

i agreed with postrib Jesus telling us he will come again immediately after the tribulation. NO third coming. not before the tribualtion

The Bible certainly does not use the term "third coming".
The Old Testament never mentions a second coming.

you partially correct that bible does not use term third coming.

yes OLD testament and NEw testamnet mentions a secong coming. you knonw better


I believe in the 4th and 5th comings

are you out of mind ??? :eek

Does anybody want to talk about "day"?
The prophetic "day" means "the appropriate time."
The preophetic "hour" means "the appropriate time."
In God's economy day equals hour.
In God's economy 1,000 years equals 1 day (2 Peter 3:8)

look at 2 peter 3:4 And saying, where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

look at word AS is compare to another.
our human think thousand years is too long to them but one thousand year as one day to LORd sight is short.
from creation to present time is too long waiting for seconing coming of Jesus christ. it almost 7,000 years that is real long time.

brumleyj
ps 27:1
amem

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ifyou call 2 Peter 3:8 a Similie;
can I call 2 Peter 3:10 a Methphor?

Repeating what i said:

I believe in the 4th and 5th comings

1. Jesus appears in the firey furnace to King Neb
2. Jesus born as a baby in Bethlehem First Coming
3. Jesus returns to earth after going to hell
between the crucifiction and the resurrection
4. Rapture/resurrection of the church age saints Second Coming
5. Second Advent to defeat the Antichrist Second Coming

 

[brumleyj]

i have a good question for you.

revelation 22:11

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

revelation 22:15

For without, are dogs, and sorcers, and whoremongers, and murderes, and idoltares, and whosoever loeveth and maketh a lie.

Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbeliving, and the abominable, and murders, and whoremongers, and sorcers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have thier part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

do you think GOD will allow unbeliver enter enterality kindgom after second advent. think about it. huh ???

please look at revelation 15:8

And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

think twice!!

brumleyj
ps 27:1
amem

 

[Ed Edwards]

Brumleyj: "do you think GOD will allow unbeliver enter enterality kindgom after second advent. think about it. huh ??? "

Wrong understanding of the holy scripture.
You sir are RIGHT NOW living in the Eternal Kingdom
of God.

John 3:16 (HCSB = Holmon Christian Standard Bible):

For God loved the world in this way: He gave His only Son,
so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish
but have eternal life.

You had eternal life from the time you believed Jesus
had been raised from the dead and when you signed Him
your Lord.

John 14:1-3 (HCSB):

"Your heart must not be troubled. Believe in God;
believe also in Me.
2 In My Father's house are many dwelling places;
if not, I would have told you. I am going away to prepare a place for you.
3 If I go away and prepare a place for you,
I will come back and receive you to Myself, so that where
I am you may be also.

Jesus speaks clearly: My Savior Jesus is going to come and
get me and take me home to the Father.

2 THessalonains 2:6-10 (HCSB):

And you know what currently restrains him, so that he will be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way,
8 and then the lawless one will be revealed.
The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of
His mouth and will bring him to nothing
with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan's working,
with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders,
10 and with every unrighteous deception among those who
are perishing. They perish because they did not accept
the love of the truth in order to be saved.

Clearly Paul says that Jesus will come and destroy the
Man of Sin, Man of Perdion (probably the Antichrist).

This is logically the description of two different comings
for two different purposes. I understand that some believe
that the two comings will be on the same exact 8-hour
work shift, others the same 12-hour day (only in some
climes that is a 16-hour day in the summer and a 8-hour
day in the winter), other in the same 24-hour day,
even others in the same 48-hour day.
I believe that the two comings will be in the same
DAY mentioned in Daniel 9:27: the seven year long day.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I'm back.

Last weekend, I went to Chattanooga, TN. For Deaf Christian Basketball Tournment. John Brumley and I both enjoyed there. I chatted with many old deaf friends there.

Randy is hearing man, he is 'deaf' pastor from Missouri. He came there for preaching. He preached VERY HOT!!! I enjoyed listened him. He's pretrib. But, I enjoyed listen him preaching. I told him, "We need deaf Billy Sunday." He laughed, agreed with me, he said, "Amen!"

Last Sunday, John and I visited deaf church in Ringgold, GA, there was a new record attendance for DEAF church - 202. Praise the Lord! Amen!

I came home from Georgia last Tuesday. That why I haven't post this for several days while I gone for out of town last weekend.

Postrib,

You say,

No scripture says or require that any unbelievers will be eternally judged immediately at the second advent.

Remember the lesson about the flood. 8 people came into the Ark before the flood came. All people over the world were ALL killed by the flood. NO person survived after the flood.

So, it shall be same thing at the coming of Christ - Matt 24:37-39 "But as the days of Noe were, SO shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, UNTIL the day that NOe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and TOOOOOOOOK THEM ALLLLLL AWAY; SOOOOO SHALL also the coming of the Son of man be."

Jesus tells us, the lesson of the flood. It came and destroyed alllll unbelievers away. NO unbeliever was survived after the flood. All unbelievers were killed by the flood. SO, SHALL BE at the coming of Christ. At the second advent of Christ, all unbelievers shall be destroyed, no unbliever will be remain left AFTER the judgement day at the second advent.

1 Corinthians 4:5 and 2 Timothy 4:1 show that believers will be judged at the second coming

Yes, that is correct. Also, 2 Tim. 4:1 tells us, Christ shall judge 'DEAD' at his appearing. Dead represents unbelievers. Christ shall judge both believers(alive) and unbelievers(dead)AT his appearing.

but Revelation 20:7-15 makes clear that unbelievers won't be eternally judged until after the millennium and the battle of Gog and Magog

I was in your same shoe before. I used myself as premill for a long time.

Many interpreting book of Revelation into chronological order all the way to the end. For example, many interpreting on seals, trumpets, and vials, all of these are in chronological order all the way to the end in seven year of tribulation period.

In my early Christian life, I thought the book of Revelation written into chronological order of the events. I have been reading through whole Revelation many times since 1988 to now. I realized Revelation was written into parallels and cycles through John's visions. His visions run like as 'replay' on the tape.

There are seven parallels or cycles throughout Revelation chapter 6-11, and chapter 15-16.

There are several passages in the book of Revelation on the coming of Christ - Rev. 1:7; 6:12-15; Rev. 7:1('four winds' refers with Matt. 24:31, and Mark 13:27); Rev. 10:7; Rev. 11:12-18; Rev. 14:1-4; Rev. 14:10-11; Rev. 14:14-20; Rev. 16:15-16; Rev. 19:11-21; Rev. 20:9-15.

Revelation chapter 20 is a heavily symbolic meaning. It does not take 'a thousand years' into literal time. It represents that Christians are reigning with Christ in the heaven right now for a long time.

We are in realized millennium kingdom now. I rather called it, 'eternality kingdom' than amillennial kingdom. We now have the kingdom of God/heaven, because Christ presents it when he was on earth 2000 years ago. Christ tells that we must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven/God.

All unbelievers shall be judge and cast away immeidately at the coming of Christ - Matt 25:31-46.

You use Zechariah chapter 14 to improve the doctrine of future millennial kingdom. The problem is, there is NONE mentioned - 'a thousand years' anywhere in the context of Zechariah chapter 14, you know that.

Zech. 14:6,7 - "And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be ONE DAY which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall to come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light."

Obivously, the context of Zechariah chapter 14 talking about the second coming in THAT DAY, the world shall know the Lord, and the Lord shall judge the world - Zech. 14:4 same with Joel 3:12-14.

Matthew 25:31-46 doesn't require that Christ eternally judge unbelievers immediately after His second coming

Oh come on. You know better than that.

Look verses of Matt 25:31-33 say, "WHEN the Son of man shall COME in his glory, and ALLLLL the holy angels WITH him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be GATHERED ALLLLL NATIONS: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."

It tell us, WHEN Christ shall COME WITH HIS ANGELS, he shall send his angels to harvest all nations, to dividee them into two groups - sheep(believers), and goats(unbelievers). Yes, all unbelievers shall face judge immediately after the second coming of Christ. Cannot you read Matt 25:31-33 describe so clear?

The judgement of unbelievers isn't seen at the second coming

Oh come on! You know better than that.

Christ tells us, we remember the lesson of the flood. The flood came and destroyed all unbelievers, SO SHALL be at the coming of Christ. The flood is the judgement. The second coming of Christ IS the judgement also!

Rev. 19:17-18 say, "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captians, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of ALLLLLLLLLLLL men, both FREE and BOND, both SMALL and GREAT."

Clear, all people shall be judged at the second coming. Notice Rev. 19:18b - "both free and bond, both small and great" is same refer as Rev. 20:12 - "dead, small and great, stand before God".

Rev. 19:18 IS the judgement day same as Rev. 20:11-15.

Matt. 25:31-46 IS the judgement day same as Rev. 20:11-15.

The first part of Matthew 25:46 refers to the casting of the wicked into the lake of fire after the millennium (Revelation 20:15)

The problem is, NONE mentioned of 'a thousand years' find anywhere in the context of Matt. 25:31-46.

Jesus Christ never teaching premill doctrine while 3 years of his ministry on the earth 2000 years ago.

Often, Christ taught that all unbelievers shall be cast away at the end of the age follow the coming of Christ with his angels.

The second part of Matthew 25:46 refers to those believers who WILL come to faith in Christ DURING the millennium

Again, the problem is... There is [/B]NONE[/B] mentioned of 'a thousand years' find anywhere in the context of Matt. 25:31-46.

Apostle Paul teaches us, when Christ comes, ALLLLLLL of us shall be change into immortality body - glorify body, shall never die again - 1 Cor. 15:51-54.

Notice, Matt 25:46 says, "but the righteous into life ETERNAL." Eternal means no end, it lasts forever and ever.

None find anywhere in the scripture saying that A believer shall die DURING millennium kingdom. Because, alllll believers shall change into immortlaity body - 1 Cor. 15:51-54. That means, all believers shall never, never die again forever and ever after Christ comes with his angels at the rapture.

Isaiah 66:19-21 does not mentioned 'a thousand years'.

Notice, the context of Isaiah 65:17-20 describe about the future perfect eternality conditional is refer same with Rev. 21:1-4.

Also, the context of Isa. 66:22-24 tell the repeat same thing as Isa. 65:17-20. Isa. 66:24 mentioned about unbelievers shall suffering eternality punishment in the lake of fire same with Mark 9:44,46,and 48. Same with Isa. 65:20 - "but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be ACCURSED." Isa. 65:20b speaks of unbeliever shall be condemned or judged same with Isa. 66:24.

Both context of Isaiah chapter 65 and 66 say nothing about 'a thousand years'. Both speak about the future perfect eternality condition or enivornment. It shall be fulfilled follow at the second advent.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

I love it:
premill posties arguing with
a-mill posties - the blind leading the blind.
Which is a cruel (though Biblical)
comparistion. For the best person i've
seen lead a blind man was another blind
man.

"It is then 37 steps in this direction
to the street". I sure didn't know how
many steps there are to the street,
I don't need to know, I can see
the street.

Remember friendly Pretribs enjoying
this discussion, here is Ed's quick
comparison of the theories of
our future:

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib a-mill outline:

0. church age continues - is the same as: &lt;-- you are here
2. Tribulation time - is the same as: &lt;-- you are here
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom &lt;-- you are here
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth

Peterist a-mill outline:

0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection &lt;done happened
2. Tribulation time &lt;-- or maybe you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event &lt;done happend
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom &lt;done happened
5. new heaven & new earth &lt;-- or maybe you are here

Ed recommends the pretrib pre-mill
view as aligning most nearly with Holy Scripture.
Ed recommends:
get Rapture Ready!
Stay Rapture Ready!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

I note that these are two different judgements

The Bible does not saying there are two different judgements.

It teaches us, that the judgement day shall be occur on the last day at the coming of Christ to judge both believers and unbelievers - Matt 25:31-46; 2 Tim. 4:1; 2 Cor. 5:10; Romans 14:10; Rev. 11:18; and Rev. 20:11-15.

The Bible certainly does not use the term "third coming"

That's correct.

However, many pretribbers saying, rapture is NOT at the second advent. Rapture separates from the second coming. The Bible never saying it. They just added it up.

Again, Bible does not use term, 'first coming' and 'second coming' either. But, we all agree that Christ came to earth first time as born as baby, grew up for over 30 years, was crucified on the cross, died, then. He returns back to heaven.

So, we all agree that Christ SHALL come again to earth - second time is a future event.

There is only two comings of Christ in the Bible. First coming of Christ was as a Lamb and Servant. Second coming of Christ shall be as a Lion and King. That is so simple, and no complex.

I believe in the 4th and 5th coming

You just making it up in your own logical. The Bible does not teaching it.

Bible teaches us, Christ came to earth first as a Lamb and Servant. Then, Christ shall come again to earth as Lion and King. It teaches us, there is the only two comings of Christ to earth.

John 14:1-3 does not saying it is 'pretrib'. I agree with John 14:1-3 100% completed. I love John 14:1-3! John 14:1-3 promises us, that we do not be worry, because Christ promises us, that we shall dwell in our Father's house - New Jerusalem, where Christ dwells. When he shall come again, he shall receive us, and we shall dwell with him, where he is.

New Jerusalem shall be descend from the heaven to earth follow the judgment day after the second coming. I have no problem with John 14:1-3.

Also, 1 Thess. 4:15-17 does NOT saying Christ shall return back to heaven AFTER he shall descends. Descend means down, NOT up.

2 Thess. 2:6-10 tells us, Christ shall destroy Satan's work at his coming.

2 Thess. 2:1-3 tells us, our gathering together shall NOT come till we shall see apostasy first and the revealed of Antichrist. Right now, Antichrist is now holding back from being to be revealed - 2 Thess 2:6-7. Because it is not Satan's time yet. God knows when the right time, then He shall allow Antichrist to be loose out of the way(midst) then to be revealed - 2 Thess. 2:7.

I do not see two comings anywhere in the context of 2 Thess. 2:1-10. The context of 2 Thess. 2:1-10 mentioned the only ONE future coming of Christ after the apostasy and the working of Satan shall be destroyed.

This is Logically the description of two different comings for two different purposes

Being to use own logically is not safe way to saying in opinion. We can't interpreting scriptures into our own ideas, philosophy, theory, and logical. We must intepreting scripture to scripture, that is the hermenuetic rule.

But, the only two things that I do not agree with the hermeneutic rules - 'Intepreting in Logically' and 'Intepreting in Literally' both are not the only safe way to doing it.

You cannot doing that.

The Bible teaching us very clear that Christ shall come again at once - good example: Acts 1:11; and Rev. 1:7.

Acts 1:11 - does not saying Christ shall come like as "yo-yo's". Neither, Rev. 1:7 saying, Christ shall come like as "yo-yo's" either.

1. the rapture event before tribulation period

Bible does not saying it. We must go through much tribulations first - Acts 14:22, and we are appointed for tribulation - 1 Thess. 3:3-4.

Bible teaches us, rapture('caught up') ALWAYS goes with the coming of Christ at the same time. Nothing saying anywhere in the Bible saying 'caught up' shall be occur 7 years earlier before the coming of Christ.

There is NO difference between 'Jesus comes for His own' and 'Jesus come with His own'. Right now, millions of saints are now in the heaven with the Lord. When Christ comes again, He shall bring with them - 1 Thess. 4:14. Also, when Christ comes, He shall come again for the Church. When Christ comes again WITH his 'resurrection' Church, THEN Christ shall comes for the 'alive and remain' Church. There is NO difference between them as what pretrib teaches.

end of the 'Gentile' Age Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44

.

Christ does not saying it. You just added it up. same as what pretrib teaching. The disciples were not asking Christ for the end of the 'Gentiles' Age. They were asking Christ what shall happen at the end of the age. Right now, we are in the last days in THIS age. This age will be end AT the second coming of Christ. Christ tells us, behold, He is with us TILL the end of the world/age- Matt 28:20.

The Church shall never end forever and ever - Eph. 3:21.

Tribulation period begins

Didn't you know that we are already in tribulations now? - John 16:33, Acts 14:22, and 1 Thess. 3:3-4.

Millennial kingdom begins

We are already in the eternality kingdom since Christ bring the kingdom to earth 2000 years ago. Kingdom is a spiritually. Many Christians who already died in Christ, are now reigning with Christ in heaven - Rev. 20:4-5. This present eternality kingdom shall never be end forever ever even after the second coming of Christ also.

Saved are delivered from wrath

Amen. Saved people shall never suffer the wrath because of salvation through Jesus Christ. Even, future saints/Christians in the great tribulation will NEVER suffer the wrath of God - Rev. 13:7.

Unsaved experince the wrath of God

Yes, that is correct. Why? Because they reject Jesus Christ, and not obeying the gospel, and worshipping the Beast, receive the mark of the beast, will suffer the wrath for what? Send them to lake of fire that is the eternality punishment. Saints will not go in that, because of salvation through Jesus Christ.

Both tribulation and wrath are different meaning. Tribulation is NOT wrath. Tribulation is suffering, trial, trouble, persecution, etc. Wrath is anger, mad, punishment come from God, for send them to the lake of fire, for whosever reject Jesus Christ, worshipping the beast, received the mark of the beast.

No signs precede the Rapture

Christ tells us, that we shall see the signs to appearing - Matt 24:5-21, and 29-30 before the coming of Christ. Even, we shall see apoastasy come first - 2 Thess 2:3, 1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Tim. 3:1-7; and 2 Tim. 4:3-4.

But, we do not know what day and hour when Christ shall come, we must be ready and prepare for his coming.

Focus: Israel and Kingdom - Romans 11

Dispensationalism teaches Israel and Church are distinction. Dispensationalism accuses on posttrib and amill are 'replacement theology'. But, not every postrib and amill are replacement theology. I understand what the Bible teaching us about the Jews and Gentiles in God's plan of salvation. BOth Jews and Gentiles are already reconiled together into one body through Calvary - Eph. 12-16.

Romans chapter 11 telling us, that God does NOT forsake his people(Jews). God removed Jews from the tree, because of their UNBELIEF. But, God does NOT removed Jews from the tree because of their belief and abide remain. Believing Jews are remain abide on the SAME tree. God just added Gentiles upon the tree to join with Jews together into ONE tree or Body is Jesus Christ by the cross. That's so simple, and no complex.

Time of sorrow

Didn't you know that we are already in the 'beginning of sorrows' - Matt 24:8?

This will be continue from present time thru great tribulaiton TILL Christ comes - Matt 24:29.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Your own outlines of your own belief on pretrib/premill are fill of your own logical, and NO verse as you use to support your logical of the outline on pretrib/premill.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Ed,

Your own outlines of your own belief on pretrib/premill are fill of your own logical, and NO verse as you use to support your logical of the outline on pretrib/premill.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Again, thank you
for your continued compliments.

By contrast your pretrib/premill beliefs
are canned for you by somebody else.

I leave it to the reader as to which
method is most likely to be used
by the Holy Spirit to produce fruitful
results.

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: "quote:
--------------------------------------------------
I note that these are two different judgements
-------------------------------------------------

DeafPosttrib: "The Bible does not saying there are two different judgements.

"It teaches us, that the judgement day shall be occur on the last day at the coming of Christ to judge both believers and unbelievers - Matt 25:31-46; 2 Tim. 4:1; 2 Cor. 5:10; Romans 14:10; Rev. 11:18; and Rev. 20:11-15."

None of these scriptures say "there is one
and only one Judgement."
None of these scriptures say: "there are two
or more judgements".
These scriptures do however, show that
the Who, What, When, where, how ARE DIFFERENT.
God is a Judging person.

There are many judgements, for God is a judging God.

Please read my evangelistic message showing
five Judgements of God. PLease don't say in
response "

"The Bible does not saying there are two different judgements." You have already said this many
times and signing it again will not make a difference.
Please discuss the many speicifics i've sumarized here.
Thank you.]


Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God.

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age[/b]

5. Great White Throne judgement
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

I will reply back about the judgment day tomorrow. Because I have to work now - 3rd shift job.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: "Being to use own logically is not safe way to saying in opinion. We can't interpreting scriptures into our own ideas, philosophy, theory, and logical. We must intepreting scripture to scripture, that is the hermenuetic rule."

You are correct. Recommend you start
using it sometime.

BTW, "The Bible does not saying there are two different judgements" is becoming a montra for you. You
have repeated it to many times.

DeafPosttrib: " That is so simple, and no complex."

Recall there is a signifant difference between
that which is simple and that which is simplified
to trick the simple. IMHO your teacher has
tricked you.

DeafPosttrib: "we all agree that Christ came to earth first time as born as baby, grew up for over 30 years, was crucified on the cross, died, then. He returns back to heaven."

Do you agree that Jesus was with the
three Hebrew Children in the Firey furnace
(Daniel 3)?

Do you agree that Jesus went to hell
to release the captives (Romans 10:13)

DeafPosttrib: "So, we all agree that Christ SHALL come again to earth - second time is a future event."

What do you make of "time"? Is it a human day
of 8-hours (AKA: work day)? Is it a God day
of 1,000-man-years?
I believe it to be a SEVEN (Daniel 9:27) or
a seven-year-day.

DeafPosttrib: 'There is NO difference between 'Jesus comes for His own' and 'Jesus come with His own'."

Actually, there is a difference, i'll clarify it.
Note i clarify it by adding words, so some
will say i made it more complex. But there
is no dealing with those who cannot see their
blindness.

1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

quote:
----------------------------
Tribulation period begins
-----------------------------

DeafPosttrib: "Didn't you know that we are already in tribulations now? - John 16:33, Acts 14:22, and 1 Thess. 3:3-4. "

Again, you fail to distinguish between
"Tribulation Period" denoted by "tribulation"
and "tribulation, the human condition"
also denoted by "tribulation". ANd neither can
the pople who propgandized you.

Again, you chant the major arugment like a montra
because you are unable to counter the
specific arguments.