Rapture: hocus-pocus

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Ed,

I will reply back about the judgment day tomorrow. Because I have to work now - 3rd shift job.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

As you say,
we have many tribulation to bear

 

[Askjo]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
There is NO difference between 'Jesus comes for His own' and 'Jesus come with His own'.

You misunderstand 2 words, "for" and "with" because they are different meaning. Look up them in your dictionary or Greek dictionary.

 

[postrib]

Greetings in Jesus' name,

From the post in this thread made on March 24, 2004 05:17 AM:
". . . sheep/goat judgment is refer to matthew 13:24-30 and 37-42, matthew 25:31-34,46 tell us Chirst will judge both after second advent. it does not saying judge both after millennium . . . "

No scripture says or requires that any unbelievers will be eternally judged immediately at the second coming. 1 Corinthians 4:5 and 2 Timothy 4:1 show that believers will be judged at the second coming (Revelation 19), but Revelation 20:7-15 makes clear that unbelievers won't be eternally judged until after the millennium and the battle of Gog and Magog.

The post-trib view allows for there to be a millennium. The millennium of Revelation 20 must occur after the second coming of Revelation 19 because the millennium won't begin until after the resurrection of the church (Revelation 20:6), and those Christians martyred under the reign of the Antichrist will also reign with Christ for the thousand years (Revelation 20:4).

Matthew 25:31-46 doesn't require that Christ eternally judge all unbelievers immediately after His second coming, only that He eternally judge them sometime subsequent to His second coming. The judgment of unbelievers isn't seen at the second coming (Revelation 19), but is seen after the millennium and the battle of Gog and Magog (Revelation 20:7-15). The thousand years is clearly mentioned in the context of Revelation 20:7-15.

The first part of Matthew 25:46 refers to the casting of the wicked into the lake of fire after the millennium (Revelation 20:15). The second part of Matthew 25:46 refers to those believers who will come to faith in Christ during the millennium (which conversion Christ previously revealed to the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 66:19-21), and who will then be judged at the white throne judgment with all unbelievers, but unlike the unbelievers, their names will be found written in the book of life (Revelation 20:15).

Matthew 13:39-42 refers to the casting of all the wicked into the lake of fire after the millennium (Revelation 20:15).

Matthew 13:42 isn't referring to the second coming, for all evil isn't cast into the furnace of the lake of fire at the second coming, only the beast and false prophet are (Revelation 19:20). After the millennium (Revelation 20:4) and the battle of Gog and Magog occur (Revelation 20:7-8), and before the white throne judgment occurs (Revelation 20:11-15), Satan will also be cast into the lake of fire where only the beast and false prophet had been previously cast (Revelation 20:10).

Matthew 13:42 and Revelation 20:15 refer to the subsequent casting of all those not written in the book of life into the lake of fire at the white throne judgment after the millennium and the battle of Gog and Magog (Revelation 20:7-15). Matthew 13:39-42 doesn't have to specifically mention the thousand years for it to be referring to the same event as Revelation 20:15.

Matthew 13:40's reference to the end of the world (or age) can be a reference to the end of the millennial age, subsequent to which the earth will flee away (Revelation 20:11) and be replaced by the new earth (Revelation 21:1).

From the post in this thread made on March 24, 2004 08:16 AM:
". . . Even if you believe Jesus will come again only once, it is the forth coming . . . "

We are still waiting for Christ to appear (or come) physically the second time (Hebrews 9:28; Acts 1:11). No scripture refers to or requires multiple future appearances (or comings) of Christ.

From the post in this thread made on March 24, 2004 08:16 AM:
". . . rapture/resurrection of the church age saints . . . "

The scriptures nowhere refer to a church age, but instead say that the church will continue throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21).

No scripture says that the rapture will be before the tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31 shows Jesus coming and gathering together His elect in the rapture after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to this same coming and gathering together (verse 1) and confirms that it can't happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8). Revelation 13:10 and Revelation 14:12-13 confirm that we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we will need patience and faith during that time.

From the post in this thread made on March 24, 2004 08:16 AM:
". . . Second Advent . . . "

When we look at the scriptures related to the rapture, we see that none of them distinguish between the rapture and the second coming, but they all consistently say that the rapture will be at the "coming" of Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Corinthians 15:23; Matthew 24:29-31). There's no third coming.

From the post in this thread made on March 24, 2004 11:27 PM:
". . . 4. Rapture/resurrection of the church age saints Second Coming
5. Second Advent to defeat the Antichrist Second Coming . . . "

No scripture refers to or requires multiple phases of the second coming whereby He comes, goes back to heaven for some years, and then comes back again a third time. Again, there's no third coming.

From the post in this thread made on March 25, 2004 02:42 PM:
". . . do you think GOD will allow unbeliver enter enterality kindgom after second advent . . . "

The eternal kingdom isn't immediately after the second coming. Zechariah 14:3-5 shows the second coming of Christ and Zechariah 14:6-21 shows what will occur on the earth subsequent to the second coming. There will be unbelievers "left" after the second coming (Zechariah 14:16; compare Matthew 24:40), "heathen" nations who won't come up to worship Jesus without great punishment (Zechariah 14:17-19; see also Psalms 2:8-12), unbelieving nations which believers will rule over with a rod of iron during the millennium and break to shivers like a potter's vessel (Revelation 2:26-27).

From the post in this thread made on March 25, 2004 05:05 PM:
". . . Jesus is going to come and get me and take me home to the Father . . . "

John 14:3 in no way teaches a pre-trib rapture, but rather refers to the second coming ("I will come again"), when we will be raptured up to be where Jesus is in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). Again, there's no third coming. Once we are in the clouds with Jesus, no scripture says that we will be taken all the way into the third heaven, for Jesus and we must descend to reign on the earth for the thousand years (Revelation 20:4; Revelation 5:10). After the thousand years are expired, and after the battle of Gog and Magog and the white throne judgment (Revelation 20:7-15), we will then live forever in the Father's house, New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2-3), where Jesus has prepared an eternal place for us (John 14:2).

From the post in this thread made on March 25, 2004 07:13 PM:
". . . All people over the world were ALL killed by the flood . . . "

Matthew 24:39 doesn't require that all unbelievers will be destroyed at the second coming just as all unbelievers were destroyed in the flood, only that the unbelievers taken away at the second coming will "know not" until they are taken away, just as all the unbelievers destroyed in the flood "knew not" until they were taken away, for the very next verse indicates that at the second coming only some unbelievers will be taken away, while others will be left (compare Zechariah 14:16).

From the post in this thread made on March 25, 2004 07:13 PM:
". . . Dead represents unbelievers . . . "

2 Timothy 4:1 doesn't say or require that any unbelievers will be eternally judged immediately after the second coming. 2 Timothy 4:1 could be referring to the quick believers who will still be on the earth and to the dead believers who will return with Christ at His second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52).

From the post in this thread made on March 25, 2004 07:13 PM:
". . . many interpreting on seals, trumpets, and vials, all of these are in chronological order . . . "

Yes. The post-trib view allows for the seals, trumpets, and vials to occur in chronological order, for the seven angels may not even be given the seven trumpets until after the seventh seal has been unsealed (Revelation 8:1-2), and the seven plagues of the seven vials could come out of the temple-opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19; Revelation 15:5-7).

From the post in this thread made on March 25, 2004 07:13 PM:
". . . It represents that Christians are reigning with Christ in the heaven right now . . . "

In Revelation 20:4-5, John sees living, resurrected people ("they lived . . . this is the first resurrection"), including those who had been beheaded under the reign of the Antichrist, reigning with Christ on the earth for the thousand years. Just as "souls" in verses such as Acts 27:37 and 2 Peter 2:14 refers to living people on the earth, so "souls" in Revelation 20:4 refers to living people on the earth.

We should all be looking for Christ's earthly kingdom, for just as Christ's kingdom currently exists in heaven (Revelation 3:21), and currently exists spiritually within our hearts (Luke 17:21), so Christ's current kingdom and power (Matthew 28:18) will be exerted physically "over all the earth" during the millennium (Zechariah 14:9-21; Psalms 2:8-12; Micah 4:2-3), during which time all resurrected believers, whether Jew or Gentile, will "live and reign with Christ" "on the earth" (Revelation 5:10; Revelation 20:4-6), breaking earthly nations to shivers with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-27).

From the post in this thread made on March 25, 2004 07:13 PM:
". . . there is NONE mentioned - 'a thousand years' anywhere in the context of Zechariah chapter 14 . . . "

A thousand years don't have to be specifically referred to in Zechariah 14:16-21 for it to be referring to the same millennial reign of Christ on earth as Revelation 20:4, which reign will be "over all the earth" (Zechariah 14:9) and will continue "from year to year" (Zechariah 14:16) and "in summer and in winter" (Zechariah 14:8).

From the post in this thread made on March 25, 2004 07:13 PM:
". . . in THAT DAY. . . "

Zechariah 14:21 refers to the same thousand year "day" as Zechariah 14:8-9 and Zechariah 14:20, which will continue "in summer and in winter" (Zechariah 14:8) and "from year to year" (Zechariah 14:16), for a thousand years are as a day in the Lord's sight (2 Peter 3:8).

From the post in this thread made on March 25, 2004 07:13 PM:
". . . the flesh of ALLLLLLLLLLLL men . . . "

Just as the "all men" in Revelation 19:18 doesn't require that all believing men will be eaten by the birds, so it doesn't require that all unbelieving men will be eaten by the birds. Revelation 19:18 refers only to all the unbelieving men gathered in the armies that are slain in Revelation 19:19-21. It doesn't refer to every last unbeliever on the earth, for some unbelievers who aren't in the armies will be "left" alive (Matthew 24:40; Zechariah 14:16).

From the post in this thread made on March 25, 2004 09:20 PM:
". . . Judgement Seat of Christ . . . "

No scripture says that the judgment of the saints will occur during the tribulation, or in the third heaven. At the second coming (Revelation 19), Christ won't immediately begin to fight Armageddon, but will first gather together the church from heaven and earth into the clouds in order for the church to be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, compare Mark 13:27; 2 Timothy 4:1; 1 Corinthians 4:5; Hebrews 10:30), for all believers must stand before the judgment seat of Christ (Romans 14:10) by having every one of their actions and inactions weighed by Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10; Luke 12:47).

From the post in this thread made on March 25, 2004 09:20 PM:
". . . Time of Jacob's Trouble . . . "

The time of Jacob's trouble isn't the entire tribulation, but the very end of the tribulation, right before the second coming (Jeremiah 30:7-9; compare Daniel 12:1-2), when all nations will gather against Jerusalem (compare Zechariah 14:2-4; Daniel 11:45).

The New Testament church will be on the earth in the tribulation alongside unbelieving Israel just as the New Testament church since its inception has always been on the earth alongside unbelieving Israel.

The believers who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be from every people (Revelation 7:9-14), not just the Jews.

The church is made up of all believers of all time, whether Jewish or Gentile (1 Corinthians 12:13), for there's only one faith, and only one body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23). The Christians who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be members of the church, for they (like other Christians) will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14), will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13).

From the post in this thread made on March 25, 2004 09:20 PM:
". . . [judgment] during the Tribulation . . . "

None of the seven seals (Revelation 6) or the seven trumpets (Revelation 8-9) of the tribulation is ever called a judgment. Only the seven vials (Revelation 16) are referred to as judgments (Revelation 15:4; 16:7), and they will in no way be directed against the believers who will be on the earth.

From the post in this thread made on March 25, 2004 09:51 PM:
". . . Jesus comes with His own . . . "

The scriptures don't say that there will first be a future coming of Jesus for His own, and then a subsequent coming with His own. Instead, they refer to a single future coming of Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 says that He will come with believers at the rapture (compare 1 Thessalonians 3:13). There's no third coming.

-

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I'm back!

Ed,

First of all, yes, it is true, that Christ died on the cross to saved us from the sins by through his Blood. Without his blood, there is no forgive of sins.

WE cannot saved by ourselves. We cannot working of our own good works in our own ways. We cannot do in our self-righteousness. We cannot go to heaven in our own good works and self-righteousness without have faith in Jesus Christ. Christ paid all our sins through his blood.

Many use use Heb. 10:10 to prove security salvation. They interpreting, 'once for all', means, Christ paid all our sins at once.

I understand. My understand of Heb. 10:10 speaks of Christ sacrificed on the cross at ONCE for all people. Jesus said, "it is finished" - John 19:30. He speaks of already fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament concerning about Christ and Calvary. That means, NO MORE another animal offerings or sacrifices again, because Christ IS our sacrifice.

WE cannot saved by ourselves, we cannot saved by our owns good works, we cannot saved by our own self-righteousness. The only way that we can be saved by faith UPON Jesus Christ only. First, we must believe on Jesus Christ, what He have done on the cross for us, and rose from the dead for us. Then, we must repent of our sins, and call upon the Lord to be saved. After saved, we must obey the Lord's commandments, and follow Him.


You say,

2. Judgment Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth; Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Blood of Jesus

I understand that there are six most important common questions, often, people asking: Who, when, where, why, how, and what.

These are important common questions that we should know it is all about.

But your common questions, does not use any verse. You HAVE TO prove verses to support all 6 commons of questions.

Yes, it is true that the judgement is for the believers. But, it is not just for the believers only, also, it apply to EVERY individuals both believers and unbelievers. We cannot escape from the judgement. We all know that we MUST face the judgement for our works, what we have done in our lifetime.

Many saying, 'judgment seat of Christ' and 'great white throne' are distinction. But, the Bible does not saying it.

Many saying, word, 'bema' means rewards. Often, pretrib scholars or pastors saying, bema is the judgement seat of Christ for to judge Christians' works for the rewards, as they often use Romans 14:10 and 2 Cor. 5:10 too.

Three years ago, a deaf pastor asked me, What is 'bema'? I answered him, it means, judgment. He told me, "No, wrong. It means reward." I rather not to argue with him. I let him win.

'Bema' in Greek word means seat or throne. PLease look in Strong's Concordance for word, 'judgement' in Romans 14:10. Notice at right side shows, #968. Go to Greek Dictionary in Strong's Concordance for #968. It defines, throne.

If you do not agree with it.

Then, I suggest you, go and look at Bible.crosswalk.com then type, Romans 14:10 under KJV with Strong's number.

It does not support the idea meaning of rewards. Bema means seat or throne.

Good example - please read Matt. 27:19 says, "When he was set down on the judgment seat, his(Pilate)wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him."

The judgment seat is not always good and positive, and not for the reward. That verse speaks of Christ was face under the judgment seat of Pilate before his crucification.

Same with John 19:13 says, "When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth and sat down in the judgement seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha."

You better check for Romans 14:10 and 2 Cor. 5:10 for 'judgment' in Strong's Concordance. Both use Greek number - #968.

The judgment seat is not always good and positive, and it is not always for the reward.

You believe it will be occur during the Great Tribulation Period, right after the rapture that starts the Tribulation. But, the Bible does not support your logical.

My good friend who study the Bible so much. He is a such good Bible student - 2 Tim. 2:15.

I agree with him, as what he found verses tell the timing of the judgement day will be take place. I would like to put these verses by post on this, not because of his opinion, or his own words. But I agree with these verses, what these saying about the timing of the judgement day. He found these on the timing of the judgement day in the Old Testament!

Here are:

Psalms 18:20-24 "The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me. For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wicked departed from my God. For all his judgements were before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me. I was also upright before him, and I KEPT myself from mine iniquity. Therefore hath the LORD recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight."

Psalms 58:10-11 "The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth."

Isaiah 40:10 "Behold the LORD GOD will COME with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him."

Isaiah 62:11-63:4 "Behold, the Lord hath procliamed UNTO the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, behold thy salvation cometh; behold his reward is with him, and his work before him. And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken. Who is this that cometh from Edom, dyed garments from Bozrah? this THAT is glorious in his apparel traveling in the greatness of his strenght? I that speak in righteosuness, mighty to save. Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winevat? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the DAY of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come."

Notice Isa. 63:3 is refer with Rev. 14:19,20 about the second coming to judgement the world.

Clear, the saints shall not receive the reward TILL Christ shall come with his angels, that would be at the second coming.

Christ tells us in Matt. 16:27 "For the Son of man shall COME in the glory of his Father WITH HIS ANGELS; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

It is very clear telling us, faithful Christians shall not receive the reward TILL Christ shall come WITH HIS ANGELS. That would be at the second advent at the end of the tribulation.

Rev. 11:18 "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

Clear it tells us, the faithful Christians shall receive the reward right AFTER the seventh(last) trumpet blown(Rev. 11:15).

Christ tells us, "And, behold, I COME quickly; and my reward is with me,(Isa. 40:10; and 62:11) to give every man according as his work shall be."

Clear, Christ tells us, faithful Christians shall not receive reward TILL Christ shall come again.

Judgment seat of Christ is NOT always for the reward to the believers only. It apply to EVERY individuals both believers and unbelievers.

Many pastors preaching on 'talents' of Matt 25:14-30. Late Dr. John R. Rice explained on Matt. 25:14-30 in his commentary of Matthew. But, he said, Matt. 25:14-30 is for the special application to Israel in pp. 411. But, later, he said, it include Christians for the judgement in pp. 414-15. Huh?? He cannot do both applications on Matt. 25:14-30. Matt. 25:14-30 speak of EVERY Christians shall face the judgement. Many pastors avoid use verse 30. They know verse 30 warns about a lazy servant will go to hell for not serve the Lord.

Christ warns us, that many of us are strive to enter the eternal life - Luke 13:24. Most of them will not enter it - Matt 7:13;14, and Luke 13:23.

Many Christians saying, they are already saved, and doing their good works, faithful serve the Lord. I believe them. But, many of them still keep their sins while serve the Lord, because they didn't confess their sins to the Lord - 1 John 1:9.

Christ says to us in Matt. 7:21-23, many will say to him in THAT DAY, they did do their good works for the Lord. But the Lord shall saying to them, "ye that work iniquity." Iniquity means wicked.

Pharisees do their own good works to keep the commandments and the laws. But they refuse admit their sins, and not repent of their sins. Same with many Christians are act like Pharisees today.

True, many Christians do their good works, and serve the Lord, BUT, many of them did not confess their sins to Christ, and did not repent of their sins.

So, that is the reason, the Lord shall send people to hell for keeping sins without have repentance.

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38; Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

First of all, Israel already face judgements by God during Old Testament period. Good example- find in the book of Judges in O.T. Israel have been under the judgements for 400 years because of their sins. God punished Israel many times that was judgments fall upon them during O.T. time. Also, God punished Israel by send Babylon to invaded Israel and Jerusalem. The building of the temple was destroyed. Many Jews were taken into captivity under Babylon.

Many pretribbers use Jer. 30:7 - 'Jacob's trouble' is future seven year of Tribulation period for Israel only. But they have to read start with the context of Jeremiah chapter 29 and 30 talk about Jeremiah, the prophet warned them, that the judgement will come upon them, if they refuse to repent of their sins, Babylon will take over Israel. Jer. 30:7 already fulfilled over 2,500 years ago. Then, 70 years later, they then finally saved out of it - freed from captivity under Babylon.

Often, pretrib teaches Israel and the Church are distinction. Great Tribulation is for Israel only. The Bible does not saying it.

Jews and Gentiles both already reconciled together into unity - ONE through Calvary 2,000 years ago in Eph. 2:12-16 and Romans 11:11, 24-26. Now, it is NO LONGER, Jews and Gentiles are divided again forever and ever.

Nothing saying in the Bible, that God have two different programs for Israel and the Church in the future. Calvary already reconciled both Jews and Gentiles unity togther into ONE 2,000 years ago.

Tribulation is for the believers according to 1 Thess. 3:3-4.

4. Throne of his Glory judgment
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation (these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those who bless Yisrael and curse there who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

First of all, Matthew 25:31-46 does NOT mentioned about the millennial age, or neither, it says, 'a thousand years' either.

Christ tells us, very simple, the angels will divided all nations over the world into two groups - sheep and goats. Sheep represents believers, goats represent unbelievers.

Also, the context of Matt 25:31-46 does not saying, anyone of the 'tribulation' saints shall be alive and remain through all seven year of tribulation period after they miss rapture. Many pretrib/premill just adding it up unto Matt. 25:31-46, not what Christ actually saying.

All nations simple mean EVERY individuals over the world. Aren't we as American? We are living in America. America is nation. We are the nation. Church lives in America now. Simple, America is nation. We are the nation. Not only in America, also, many Churches over the nations of the world too. So, Christ shall send all angels to gathering all nations, but to divided them into two groups - sheep and goat. Harvest is the rapture.

There is no other else judgement day beside Matt. 25:31-46. Christ speaks of the only ONE judgement day.

In 1999, I went to Rochester, NY. I visited Cologate Divinty School, into the library have COUNTLESS of old, old commentaries from 17th Century to 19th Century. I remembered I went to that library with my friend in year 1990 while I was pretrib/premill.

I found Charles Haddon Sprugeon Commentary of Matthew 25:31-46. That book is very, very old. It was printed in year 1885. He called it, 'judgment seat of Christ'. I agree with him 100% completed.

There is NO difference between 'judgement seat of Christ' and 'great white throne'. Both are synonymous.

How can they prove that both are distinction, while the Bible doesn't saying it?

5. Great White Throne Judgment
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between hell and the lake of fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: The Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

Yes, the great white throne is for the unbelievers. But, it does not limited for the unbelievers, also, include believers too.

Apostle Paul said in Acts 10:42 - "And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead." Paul tells us, God shall judge both quick and dead in that day.

Also, in Acts 17:31 says, "Because he hath appointed A DAY, the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordianed; whereof he hath given assurance unto ALLLLLLLLL men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

Paul tells us, Christ shall judge the world in his justified in THAT DAY at his appearing.

2 Tim. 4:1 tells us, Christ shall judge both quick and the dead AT his appearing and the kingdom. Quick represents believers, dead represents unbelievers. How does I know? Please look to Eph. 2:1- "And you hath he quickened, who WERE DEAD in trespasses and sins." Obivously, at the first place, we were dead with sins. Dead means lost. When we believed in Christ, he made us alive again same as born again.

Dead means lost without have Christ. Dead are unbelievers. When we accepted Christ, we are alive again are believers.

Same with Luke 15:32 tells us, the son was dead, but now is alive again.

If a person remain sinning and not repentance, person remain dead all the way to death, will face the judgement, send person to lake of fire.

If a person repented of sins all the way to death will remain alive "quick" .

That why Christ shall judge both 'quick' and the 'dead' AT HIS APPEARING - 2 Tim. 4:1.

Same with Matt 25:31-46 tells us, Christ shall judge both 'sheep' and 'goats' AT HIS APPEARING.

a chart where TWENTY-FOUR Judgements were delineated

I heard it before several times. Remember, these twenty-four are the symbolic meanings in the book of Revelation. Yes, these are part of the judgements.

But, I am speaking of future final judgement day for every individuals shall face Jesus Christ sits on the throne to judge their works and iniquities. That will be occur at the second advent in the LAST DAY.

Notice John 5:28-29 say, "Marvel not at this: for the HOUR is coming, in the which ALLLL(both believers and unbelievers) that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth, they that have DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have DONE EVIL, unto the resurrection of damnation."

It is very clear telling us, both shall be resurrection on the LAST DAY(John 6:39,40,44, and 54), many shall enter eternal life for DONE GOOD, many shall enter eternal punishment for DONE EVIL.

Obivously, John 5:27-29 speak of future judgement day.

Do you agree that Jesus went to hell to release the captives (Romans 10:13)?

Yes, He did went to hell to set believers free from Abraham's bosom during three days of his buried before his resurrection in Eph. 4:8-9.

Do you agree that Jesus was with the three Hebrew Children in the Firey furnance (Daniel 3)?

Yes, I believe it.

Understand, Jesus have been came to earth several times during Old Testament period. But, He was not in the flesh yet. He was an angelic or Spirit. Remember, the angels came to earth as to appear in the present of the people, as they were visible, but they were not in the flesh. Two angels appeared in the midst of Christ's disciples at Mt. Olivet after Christ ascend into the heaven. They were visible, but, they were not in the flesh.

Bible clear teaching us, Christ came to earth in FLESH. At the first advent, He came to earth in the FLESHas born as baby. He died on the cross, he return back to heaven with his FLESH.

At the second advent, He shall come again in his FLESH and his coming shall be visible and physical. Every person on the earth shall SEE Him coming with power and glory - Matt 24:30, and Rev. 1:7. His coming shall not be a secert and quiet. His coming shall be visible and NOISY too!

The Bible is so very clear teaching us, there is the only ONE future coming of the Lord.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

About the Judgement mentioned in 25 Matthew.
DeafPosttrib: "Christ tells us, very simple, the angels will
divided all nations over the world into two groups - sheep
and goats. Sheep represents believers, goats represent unbelievers. "

If you are in this judgement:
do you go to death for being a citizen of the evil USofA,
or do you go to life for being in Christ?
I.E. is this judgemet nation by nation or individual
by individual? I belive it to be a nation by
nation judgement at the end of the Tribulation period
about how each nation treated the Jews during the
Tribulation Period. If say the French are good to
the Jews, they will enter the physcial 1,000 Year Kingdom
of Jesus. If say the USofA do evil to the Jews, they
will NOT enter the physical Millinnial Kingdom of Messiah Jesus,
they will be cast into outer darkness. For at this
time there is no Christian person on the earth (they
all went to heaven before the Tribulation started).

 

[Ed Edwards]

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------
Do you agree that Jesus went to hell to release
the captives (Romans 10:13)?
------------------------------------------------------------

DeafPosttrib: "Yes, He did went to hell to set believers
free from Abraham's bosom during three days of his buried
before his resurrection in Eph. 4:8-9."

After that Jesus CAME BACK to earth to be at
the bodily resurrection.
Then that is His second or third coming to earth.
Some future coming must be CALLED the Second Coming,
but is really the third or forth, or 15th.
Come on "First coming" and "Second coming" are both
sets with multiple events in them.

As far as that goes, the people who read the Old Testament
only, believe that Messiah will come in the future
only ONCE and it will be His First Coming.

 

[Askjo]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Many saying, 'judgment seat of Christ' and 'great white throne' are distinction. But, the Bible does not saying it.

The seat and the throne ARE different! The Judgment Seat of Christ is for Believers only. The White Throne is for unbelievers only. are they same? Absolutely not!

Often, pretrib scholars or pastors saying, bema is the judgement seat of Christ for to judge Christians' works for the rewards, as they often use Romans 14:10 and 2 Cor. 5:10 too.

Correct!

You believe it will be occur during the Great Tribulation Period, right after the rapture that starts the Tribulation. But, the Bible does not support your logical.

Therefore you reject this theology.

Judgment seat of Christ is NOT always for the reward to the believers only. It apply to EVERY individuals both believers and unbelievers.

You confuse your theology on the Judgment Seat of Christ.

True, many Christians do their good works, and serve the Lord, BUT, many of them did not confess their sins to Christ, and did not repent of their sins.

I agree.

So, that is the reason, the Lord shall send people to hell for keeping sins without have repentance.

If they are unbelievers, I agree with you.

There is NO difference between 'judgement seat of Christ' and 'great white throne'. Both are synonymous.

Oh no! Tell me what they refer to????

How can they prove that both are distinction, while the Bible doesn't saying it?

You missed the point on what the Bible actually said. I am curious to wonder why you reject the literal interepretation.

Yes, the great white throne is for the unbelievers. But, it does not limited for the unbelievers, also, include believers too.

NOOOO!!!!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Postrib,

you say,

No scripture says or require that any unbelievers will be eternally judged immediately at the second coming.

You seem not accept the clear fact what Jesus Christ saying of Matt. 25:31-33 telling us, WHEN Christ shall COME WITH HIS ANGELS, he will send his angels to gathering all nations to divided into two groups, and will send all unbelievers(goats) go to lake of fire for everlasting punishment - verse 46. Matt. 25:31-46 mentioned so very CLEAR there will be a judgement day at the second coming.

Revelation 20:7-15 makes clear that unbelievers won't be eternally judged until after the millennium and the battle of God and Magog

I understand what you saying. I respect you, because you read and follow what the Bible saying so. Many intepreting book of Revelation into chronological order. I used to believe book of Revelation written into chronological order. Later, I realized the book of Revelation is not written into chronological order. It have parallels, cycles, and retelling events. Does that mean Christ shall come again - seven times??? No.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Postrib,

you say,

No scripture says or require that any unbelievers will be eternally judged immediately at the second coming.

You seem not accept the clear fact what Jesus Christ saying of Matt. 25:31-33 telling us, WHEN Christ shall COME WITH HIS ANGELS, he will send his angels to gathering all nations to divided into two groups, and will send all unbelievers(goats) go to lake of fire for everlasting punishment - verse 46. Matt. 25:31-46 mentioned so very CLEAR there will be a judgement day at the second coming.

Revelation 20:7-15 makes clear that unbelievers won't be eternally judged until after the millennium and the battle of God and Magog

I understand what you saying. I respect you, because you read and follow what the Bible saying so. Many intepreting book of Revelation into chronological order. I used to believe book of Revelation written into chronological order. Later, I realized the book of Revelation is not written into chronological order. It have parallels, cycles, and retelling events. Does that mean Christ shall come again - seven times??? No. It have details retelling about the coming of Christ. Remember John's visions run like as replay on T.V.

I am not alone person to tell you that the book of Revelation is not chronological order. Also, several pastors who are pretrib, they told me, the book of Revelation is not chronological order, these are parallels and cycles.

Stop and think..... 6th trumpet in Rev. 9:14 tells us, Euphrate River shall be dried up. Also, 6th vial in Rev. 16:12 tells us, Euphrate River shall be dried up. Does it mean Euphrate River shall have to be dried up TWICE???

Rev. 6:12-15 tells us, at the 6th seal, sun, moon, and stars shall became darkened. Didn't you realize there is comparing or parallel of Matt 24:4-9, 29-30 with Rev. 6:2-13? Rev. 6:13 shall be end of the great Tribulation at the coming of the Lord by follow the cosmic disturbance. How does I know the great tribulation ends at the 6th seal? Look at Matt 24:30-31 tells us, after the cosmic disturbance occurs, Christ shall appear in the clouds with power and glory, then he shall send angels to gathering all His elect with four winds. Notice words - "four winds" find three times in the New Testament, these are relate with the second advent- Matt 24:31, Mark 13:27, and Rev. 7:1. Notice Rev. 7:1 tells us, the four winds will be loosed and hold over the earth. Four winds are north, south, east, and west in four directions. For hwat? To gathering all God's elect together is the picture of the Rapture - Matt 24:31, Revelation chapter 7 and Revelation 14 too.

Notice Rev. 14:18-20 telling us, all unbelievers shall be gathering together for the judgement, that would be immediately follow at the coming of Christ. Rev. 14:14-20 is same describe about the harvest of Matt. 13:39-42, 49-50.

Understand, Rev. 20:4-6 covers the whole church history from Calvary to the end of the world, many Christians who kept God's commandments, testimony, and many who were killed by beheaded, hanged, burned, shot, etc.. stood for the Lord, many of them were martyred for Christ, are now reigning with Christ in the heaven for a length time.

I will plan to start new topic about 'thousand' next week, what itself talking about.

Often, premill intepreting many scriptures into literally. First of all, I do not deny literal things, depend on what verses in the Bible is talking about. Not all verses are literal. You have to understand book of Revelation have lot of symbol things. Many are misunderstanding what the book of Revelation is talking about.

I believe the battle of Gog and Magog is the only ONE battle, not two battles. It will be occur at the end of the great tribulation follow the coming of CHrist. The battle of Gog and Magog is synonymous as battle of Armageddon.

Later, I will discuss about the timing of Gog and Magog in new topic next week.

The post-trib view allows for there to be a millennium

NOT every posttribbers are premill. There are split among of posttribbers are premill and amill, even some are postmill too.

Matthew 25:31-46 doesn't require that Christ eternally judge all unbelievers immediately after His second coming.

Again, I keep telling you, Matt. 25:31-33 is so VERY CLEAR telling us, WHEN Christ shall come WITH HIS ANGELS, he will command his angels to gathering all nations to be divided into two groups, and Christ shall judge all nations immediately after He comes with his angels.

Do not argue with me. Argue with the context of Matt. 25:31-46, what Christ saying.

The judgement of unbelievers osn't seen at the second coming (Revelation 19), but it seen after the millennium and the battle of Gog and Magog (Revelation 20:7-15). The thousand years is clearly mentioned in the context of Revelation 20:7-15

Ok, stop and think.... Look at Rev. 6:15-16 tell us, when after the unbelievers see the cosomic disturbance appear, and they will be fear and flee hide from the face of the wrath of Christ. They know they will face the judgement under the wrath of the Lamb. Rev. 6:15-16 is clear speak of God's wrath will punish down on all unbelievers. Rev. 6:15-16 is very clear picture of the coming of Christ same with Matt 24:30 and Rev. 1:7.

Also, Rev. 11:18 tells us, after the seventh trumpet blown, the wrath of God will punish down on all unbelievers, Christ shall judge on all unbelievers at his coming.

Rev. 14:14-20 show the clear picture of the judgement on the world by the harvest. The wrath of God will punish on all unbelievers same with Matt 13:39-42, & 49-50.

Rev. 16:14,16 tells us, "the WHOLE world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." Clear it tells us, all nations (every individuals) shall be gathering together for the harvest at the coming of Christ after the sixth vial occured.

Rev. 19:18 tells us, all people of the world shall be all gathering together for to face the judgement at the coming of Christ.

Same with Rev. 20:8-15 tells us, all nations shall be gathering together for the judgement day at the coming of Christ.

The Bible is very clear teaching us, that all unbelievers WILL FACE the judgement day before Christ sit on the throne to judge them at the coming of Christ.

No question, Matt. 25:31-46 is so very, very clear picture describes about the judgement day for all nations at the coming of Christ.

The first part of Matthew 25:46 refers to the casting of the wicked into the lake of the AFTER the millennium (Revelation 20:15)

The problem is, 'a thousand years' is not mentioned anywhere in the context of Matt. 25:31-46.

Neither Christ teaching about the future millennial age to his disciples while he was on earth 2,000 years ago. He was not premill.

All disciples include John never hear of millennial age before, because it was not teaching anywhere in the Bible.

I believe, John, the Beloved, saw the vision of Rev. 20:2-5 is just a symbol meaning or figurative meaning. He knew 'a thousand years' is a figurative meaning. I will start new topic about "thousand" next week.

Matt. 25:31-46 is very, very clear picture of the judgement day on the world at the coming of Christ. Nothing saying about millennial age anywhere in the context of Matt. 25:31-46, you know that.

THe second part of Matthew 25:46 refers to those believers who WILL COME to faith in Christ DURING the millennium(which conversion Christ previously revealed to the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 66:19-21

The problem is, Christ never saying to his disciples that these people who WILL COME to faith in Christ DURING millennial age anywhere in the four gospels of the New Testament while He was on earth in his ministry.

Remember, Christ warns us, in Matt. 25:11-13 in the parable about the ten virgins, the five wise virgins with oil are ready, the five fool virgins without have oil, are not ready. When their master come, and the five wise virgins with oil went into the door, and it closed. Then, the five fool virgins without oil run to the door, and knocking ask their master, pleae open it for them. The master tell them, he do not know who they are. That means, there will be NO ANOTHER CHANCE of salvation or repentance for people once AFTER Christ comes with his angels. It will be toooooo late for them. Same with the flood. When the flood came, I am sure that many people might ran to the door of the Ark, and knocked it, begged for open to into. But it was toooooo late for them to have another chance to repentqance. This shall be same thing at the second coming.

2 Cor. 6:2 tells us, right NOW, we have opportunity to accept the salvation. Today is the opportunity for them to repent of thier sins for salvation. Once Christ comes with his angels, it will be too late for them to repent. Why? Because, his coming shall be like as THIEF, means, angels will come to grab all people without making any repentance, it will be tooo late for them to repent. They will face the judgement.

No unbeliever shall enter the eternality kingdom - 1 Cor. 15:50.

Isaiah 66:19-21 do not saying anything about the future millennial age, because it does not mentioned, 'a thousand years'.

The context of Isaiah chapter 65 and 66 both speak of future eternality condition. Isaiah 65:17-20 is much same with Rev. 21:1-4, you know that.

Matthew 13:39-42 refers to the casting of all the wicked into the lake of fire after the millennium (Revelation 20:15)

The problem is, Jesus does not saying anything about millennial kingdom anywhere in the context of Matthew chapter 13. Neither, he saying, 'a thousand years' in that context either.

Christ teaches us very clear, right now, both believers(wheat) and unbelievers(tares) are growing together ovcer the world - Matt 13:29-30. Both are growing together, unbelievers cannot separate from the believers TILL Christ comes with his angels at the end of the age.

Obivously, it tells us, all unbelievers shall be cast into eternal punishment right after the coming of Christ with his angels - Matt 13:39-42, 49-50, Matt 25:31-46, 2 Thess. 2:7-9, Rev. 14:14-20.

Matthew 13:42 isn't referring to the second coming, for all evil isn't cast into the furance of the lake of fire at the second coming, only the beast and false prophet are (evelation 19:20)

Rerember, there are many different details in the Bible talking about the coming of Christ. Yet, all of these are all include together focus on the topic or the event on the coming of Christ same day.

My question, why, Matt 24:29-31 do not mentioned Christ shall touch his feet on Mt. Olivet? Why, Revelation 19:11-21 does not mentioned Christ's feet shall touch upon the Mt. Olivet? Same thing as I ask you, why Zechariah 14:4 does not mentioned the beast and false prophet are casted into the lake of fire? Also, Why not Matt. 24:29-31 mentioned the beast and false prophet shall be cast into the lake of fire? Does that mean the beast and the false prophet are excluded from Zechariah 14:4 and Matt 24:29-31?

Cannot you understand what 'end of the world/age' talking about?

My question is, HOW shall the end of the world/age will be occured???

Matthew 13:39-42 doesn't have to specifically mention the thousand years for it to be referring to the same event as Revelation 20:15

You are partially correct. So.... you aware that Matt. 13:39-42 does not mentioned about millennial kingdom, then why must you have to believe Matt 13:39-42 must be occur after the end of millennial age while Christ never mentioned in the context of Matthew chapter 13?

Many premill make their own attempting to make in their own logical of their teaching on Matthew 13 and 25, while Christ never mentioned about millennial age/kingdom.

I ask you question, does Christ was actually teaching to his disciples about millennial kingdom while he was on earth in his ministry? Was Christ, a premill?

Zechariah chapter 14 does not mentioned about millennial kingdom, because 'a thousand years' is not mentioned anywhere in the context of Zecharaih chapter 14. I notice it says, 'day to day', year to year' in Zechariah 14. The question is, HOW shall it be end?????

Matthew 24:39 doesn't require that all unbelievers will be destroyed at the second coming just as all unbelievers were destroyed in the flood,....

Then, you seem do not accept the clear fact what Christ tells us about the flood AND Sodom too. Christ tells us, all people were destroyed in the flood, no one survived after the flood. People in Sodom, all were killed by fire, no one survived after the destruction of Sodom. So, also, it shall be same as at the coming of Christ shall be. Accept what Christ saying. Do argue with me. Argue with Christ.

for the very next verse indicates that at the second coming only SOME unbelievers will be taken away, while others will be left (compare Zechariah 14:16)

Some??? Christ does not saying it. Christ clearly telling us, anyone who do NOT watch and ready, all of them shall be taken away same with the flood.

Zech. 14:16 does not mentioned about millennial kingdom, because it does not saying, 'a thousand years'. Zech. 14:16 speaks of Gentiles who were against Jerusalem during Old Testament time, now(N.T. time) Gentiles accept and believed in Christ, worshipping the King daily in their devotional life .

Zechariah chapter 14 is not always in the chronological order. We have to be careful to reading Zecharaih chapter 14, what it talking about.

Notice Zech. 14:19-21 tell us, in the future at the second coming, God will punish on all nations who against Messiah, will cast them away, no one shall dwell in God's house - verse 21.

You cannot do guesswork or use own logical to intepreting Zechraih chapter 14, while 'a thousand years' is not mentioned anywhere in that context. If you do not see 'a thousand years' anywhere in the context in that. Then, you should NOT making determine to saying it is talking millennial age or kingdom, because it does not mentioned there.

2 Timothy 4:1 doesn't say or require that any unbelievers will be eternally judged immediately after the second coming

Yes, 2 Tim. 4:1 describes very clear that Christ shall judge both quick and dead(when?) AT HIS APPEARING. Cannot you read this?

to the dead believers who will return with Christ at His second coming

How does I know 'dead' represents unbelievers? Go to Eph. 2:1 says, "And you hath he QUICKENED, who WERE DEAD in trespasses and sins;" Clear, it tells us, at the first place, we were dead in sins. Everyone born in dead spiritual at the first place. That why, we must be born again to be alive again by Christ. Eph. 2:1 same with verse 5 too.

2 Tim. 4:1 is very clear telling us, Christ shall judge quick(believers) and dead(unbelievers) AT HIS APPEARING.

The post-trib view allows for the seals, trumpets, and vials to occur in chronological order

NOT every posttribbers have the same view on the chronological order in the book of Revelation. Even some pretribbers have different views on the chronological order of Revelation. Several pretrib pastors told me, the book of Revelation is not in the order and chronological.

I have been studying Revelation many times. At the first, I thought it was chronological order. But, later, I found out, it is not chronological order. I urge many of you have to read book of Revelation repeat and repeat, to understand it better, take your time.

"from year to year" (Zechariah 14:16) and "in summer and in winter"((Zechariah 14:8)

The problem is, 'a thousand years' is not mentioned anywhere in the context of Zechariah 14:8 and 16. The question is, HOW SHALL IT TO BE END????

Many reformers in the past, understood of Zechariah 14:4-9 speak of currently event after the Calvary, that all nations shall worship the King daily.

I respect reformers' intepreting on Eschatology well. I have several disagrees with them on their intepreting on Eschatology. I have nothing against them. Because I notice them interpreting Bible on Eschatology very carefully and serious. I respect them well. I have strong disagree with them about salvation.

I realized that premill and pretrib have lot of problems with their intepreting on the Bible than postrib and amill does, because, many of these passages anywhere in the Bible does not saying Christ shall reign in Jerusalem for a limited time only 1,000 years after the second coming.

Many of us have different views and intepreting scriptures on Eschatology. But, the most basic thing, we all agree is... Jesus is coming again!

Zechariah 14:21 refers to the same thousand year "day" as Zechariah 14:8-9 and Zechariah 14:20 ..." for a thousand are as a day in the Lord's sight (2 Peter 3:8)

The context of 2 Peter 3:3-13 talking about the promise of Lord's coming. In the last days, many people saying, 'where is the promise of his coming?' . Many of them were expecting Lord might come in their lifetime. But, all of them already died while Christ is not yet come. Many of them are make fun at us, they do not believe Christ will come again - enever. same with the flood. Many people do not believe the flood will come in their time. They heard warning of the flood for over 100 years. They were tired hear of the warning about flood. They don't believe the flood will come, because they never see rain before. I am sure that many of them were laughing at Noah for builted a huge wood boat on the dry land. They think he is so nut.

2 Peter 3:8 tells us, in our sight, that a thousand years seem tooooooooooo LONG in our sight. But, in the Lord's sight a thousand years is toooooooooo SHORT for him LIKE AS ONE DAY. Understand?

Apostle Peter could have written down, that two thousand years like as two days, if he wants to. But not necesscary. He understands what the 'thief in the night' is talking all about.

It warns us, his coming shall be like as thief in the night is a suddenly without any delay. That the context of 2 Peter 3:3-13 is all talk about.

first gather together the church from heaven and earth into the clouds in order for the the church to be judged

My question is, HOW LONG the judgment seat of Christ will be last?

Pretrib teaches the judgement seat of Christ will be occur in the clouds during seven year of tribulation period. But, their teaching on the timing of the judgment seat of Christ looks squeeze, not have enough time to judge ALL CHristians of ALL centuries from creation to the rapture.

Postrib/premill teaches the judgement seat of Christ FOR the church only in the clouds at the end of the tribulation period before the second coming. Thier teaching on the timing of the judgement seat of Christ looooks so MUCH SQUEEZE, not have time to judge all Christians of all centuries from creation to the end of tribulation period BEFORE the second coming.

I have no problem, the judgement seat of Christ is for everyone from creation to the end of the age will be follow at the second coming.

Bible clearly teaching us, that EVERYONE shall face the judgment seat of Christ, no one shall escape from it, that whoud be follow at his coming.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

each nation treated the Jews during the Tribulation Period. If say the French are good to the Jews, they will enter the physical 1,000 Year Kingdom of Jesus

I heard premill teaching on Matt 25:31-46 before many times. That is their logical or theory.

Premill inteprets 'brethren' of Matt. 25:40, represents Jews. Does Jesus was actually saying, 'brethren' represents Jews? No. He does not saying it. Premill added it up. Christ speaks of his elect people - believers both Jews and Gentiles.

Also, Christ does not saying Gentiles shall feed or hospitalizing Jews during Tribulation period anywhere in the context of Matt. 25:35-45.

Christ's point of Matt 25:35-45 talking about our serving and our responsible, also, we forsake lost people, and forsake our brothers, sisters of Christ, even we forsake Christ too. That mean, many of us do not love one another that is against God's commandment - John 14:15. Christ tells us, if we love Christ, then we OUGHT to love one another too. Today, many Christians criticizing, judging against each other. And many Christians do not care about lost souls. They allow million souls go to hell.

That what Matt 25:35-45 telling us about the judgment day. Christ shall judge to people who do not obey Christ's commandment, will go to the lake of fire.

For at this time there is no Christian person on the earth (they all went to heaven before the Tribulation started)

The Bible does not support your comment.

Christ tells us in Matt 13:29-30, both wheat and tares are growing together TILL the harvest comes. That means, believers and unbelievers are growing together in this present age TILLLLL Christ comes with his angels at the end of the age, then will separate unbelievers from believers.

Christians will be present on earth through tribulation under the Antichrist's reign - Rev. 13:7 till Christ comes after the tribulation - Matt 24:29-31.

Come on "First coming" and "Second coming" are both sets with multiple events in them

If you believe there are multiples of the "Second Coming", then that mean you believe Christ shall like as yo-yo's 4 or 5 times. The Bible never teaching us, there shall be "yo-yo's" of His future coming.

Acts 1:11 clearly telling us, the two angels told them, why you staring up the clouds, Christ shall come again in the SAME WAY as He went up into is ONCE, not twice.

I believe the future coming of Christ shall be physical, flesh, noisy, and visible, that every person of the world will see his coming is ONCE at the end of the world/age.

As far as that goes, the people who read the Old Testament only, believe that Messiah will come in the future only ONCE and it will be His First Coming.

Jews who reading the Old Testament, are still expecting for their Messiah comes. Many of them are not realize that their Messiah already appeared 2,000 years ago. Also, while Christ was on earth for his ministry. Many Jews and disciples thought Christ might take over Roman Government and rule the world now.

I am sure that many of Jews were misunderstanding by intepreting prophecies in the Old Testament about the difference between first and second advent in their time during Old Testament period.

There are about 60% to 70% of the prophecies in the O.T. cover on the first advent. So, there is only less than 30% of the prophecies in the O.T. cover on the future second advent.

When Christ preaching in the synagogue. He opened the book of Isaiah, and he said to them, "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord",- Luke 4:18,19 he closed that book in half way. He quoted it from Isaiah 61:1-2. Notice, Christ said, "To preach(proclaim} the acceptable year of the Lord", he quoted from Isa. 61:2a. But he stopped in the first part of Isa. 61:2a. That first part of Isa. 61:2a is happening right now after the Calvary. Isa. 61:2b will be fulfilled at future coming of Christ at the end of the age.

I am sure that many Jews are not realize the Old Testament did mentioned two advents of Christ, because they seem not read or study deep enough.

The point is, the Bible is very clear teaching us Christ shall come again in the future is a once event, not like as 'yo-yo's' according to Acts 1:11.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[brumleyj]

deafposttrib

you made a excllent long post there today. i said preach it amem

following after second advent.

1. Angels will get anitchrist and flase prophet cast into lake of fire first,

2. we will shall judge fallen angels

3. christ will judge unbeliever and cast into lake of fire

4. Christ will judge believer for thier works as reward and enter enterality kindgom

no complex and simple.

brumleyj
ps 27:1
amem

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by brumleyj:
following after second advent.

1. Angels will get anitchrist and flase prophet cast into lake of fire first,

2. we will shall judge fallen angels

3. christ will judge unbeliever and cast into lake of fire

4. Christ will judge believer for thier works as reward and enter enterality kindgom

no complex and simple.

No correct but simple.

-------------------------------------
"AGE" in the New King James Version (nKJV).

The KJV tends to confuse the Greek "aeon" /age/ and
Greek "cosmos" /world/ and calles them both "world".
So i'll use the nKJV for my word study on "age".
References to how old someone is (AKA: "age") have been eliminated.


Mt 12:32 (nKJV):
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man,
it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit,
it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mt 13:39 (nKJV):
The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest
is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

*souls shall be harvested at the end of this age

Mt 13:40 (nKJV):
Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire,
so it will be at the end of this age.

Mt 13:49 (nKJV):
So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come
forth, separate the wicked from among the just,

Mt 24:3 (nKJV):
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came
to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be?
And what will be the sign of Your coming,
and of the end of the age?"

Mt 28:20 (nKJV):
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

*Jesus is with us completely to the end of the age.
*the age has an end

Mr 10:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time--houses
and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands,
with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.

*people will have eternal life, in the age to come

Lu 18:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive many times more in this present time,
and in the age to come eternal life."

Lu 20:34-35 (nKJV):
34. And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry
and are given in marriage.
35. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age,
and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

*there is a future age when marriage is NOT, after resurrection from the dead

1Co 1:20 (nKJV):
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer
of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

*this age has a disputer

1Co 2:6 (nKJV):
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature,
yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age,
who are coming to nothing.

*the wisdom of this age will come to nothing
*the rules of this age will come to nothing

1Co 2:8 (nKJV):
which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known,
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1Co 3:18 (nKJV):
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems
to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.

2Co 4:4 (nKJV):
whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe,
lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ,
who is the image of God, should shine on them.

*the god of this age is NOT Jesus, the Christ

Ga 1:4 (nKJV):
who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver
us from this present evil age, according to the will
of our God and Father,

*this age is evil

Eph 1:21 (nKJV):
far above all principality and power and might and dominion,
and every name that is named, not only in this age
but also in that which is to come.

*there is an age to follow this age

Eph 6:12 (nKJV):
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,
against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

* this age is dark

1Ti 6:17 (nKJV):
Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty,
nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives
us richly all things to enjoy.

* this age has rich people in it

Tit 2:12 (nKJV):
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

Heb 6:5 (nKJV):
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

This great section on the Security of the Believer
speaks of an "age to come".
* there will be "good ... powers" in the age to come.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Askjo,

The seat and the throne ARE different!

Oh really?

I believe Jesus Christ have the only ONE throne is already set in the heaven. His throne is eternality. His throne already there before the creation. Christ do not have another throne. Both definition of 'seat' and 'throne' are same meaning.

Isaiah's vision, that he saw God throne in the glory - Isa. 6:1 "In the year that KIng Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his trian filled the temple." Isaiah said, he saw God sitting on the throne in year around 700 B.C.

Then about 300 years later, Daniel's vision, he saw God's throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. - Dan. 7:9.

Then, about 400 years later, John's vision, he saw Christ sitting on the throne - "a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." - Rev. 4:2.

Christ is God, He is an eternality. He sitting on an eternality throne in the heaven right now.

I believe when Christ comes, his throne will descend from the heaven. How? Notice Daniel 7:9 saying that, the wheels around the throne, I believe God's throne shall be descend down from heaven at the second advent, for the purpose is, to judge the world - Matt. 25:31-46.

The Judgment Seat of Christ is for Believers only. The White Throne is for unbelievers only. are they same? Absolutely not!

There you reject this theology

I do not reject Bible. I do not agree with today's men-making teaching(Col.2:8), because of their teaching are conflict with the Bible.

Early Church believed both are same meaning and event. I read many early church creeds on the end time. All of these believe Christ shall come again, to judge the quick and the dead. All of these are so overwhelm evidence that, all of these believe in the only one future coming, and one judgement day.

I give you the links of the early church creeds, what they believe- http://www.gty.org/~phil/hall.htm then, look down, and notice, 'The Creeds', then click it. You will read all of these, what they believed about the end time.

There was over 95% of Christianity over the world before 19th Century, believed there will be the only one future coming, and one judgement day.

Dispensationalism was not yet exist in their time in the first of 18 Centuries. Dispensationalism developed in the late of 19th Century. Dispensationalism teaches there are two phases or split of the second advent, teach, there are two or three(mostly pretrib teaches) future judgment days.

When I was teen, I took Confirmation class at Lutheran School for the Deaf in Detroit, MI. I remember the statement on the creed, what Lutheran believes on the end time. Lutheran believes when Christ shall come again, he shall judge both the quick and the dead. I do remember that they believe only one future coming, even, they believe only one future judgement. I do not realize Lutheran is postrib and amill. Myself was Lutheran before. Now I am not Lutheran anymore. Because, I do not agree with Lutheran on infant water baptism.

I realized, Lutheran is not the only religion believe in future one coming and one judgment, also, Catholic believes it too. BUT, later, I found out that, I learned many of reformers as Calvinists believe in future one coming and one judgement. Even, many baptists in the past believed in future one coming and one judgement.

I rather agree with early church creed on the end time than today's creed on the end time. Because, Dispensationalism caused churches into divisions because of Eschatology. Dispensationalism heavily teaching on Eschatology than anything today.

I agree with early church creeds on the end time, because they followed the Bible, what it teaching on the end time.

Today, I notice many Christians have much different beliefs about the end time than early Christians, because of their logicals and theory. They learned on it by through today's pastors, authoers, scholars. Scofield, Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, and Jack Van Impe, among of them are very heavily influence over churches in America, believing in pretribulation and premillennial. Many Christians believed on their teaching, because they are filled with philosophy and theory instead what the Bible saying. That why Colossians 2:8 warns us, we do not follow any man's teaching in their own philosophy. We rather follow the Bible, what it saying.

The purpose of teaching on pretribulation to people, to comfort and make them exciting look for rapture to escape from the tribulation and persecution. That what 2 Tim. 4:3 called it, "having itching ears"

I strong believe the Bible teaching us, there is only one future judgement at Christ's coming at the end of the age.

There are several verses in the Bible to prove, these teaching us, there will be only one future judgement day:

John 5:27-29 "And hath given him(Christ) authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the HOUR is coming, in the which ALLLLLL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

John 5:27-29 teach us very clear, when Christ comes, both believers and unbelievers all shall hear Christ's voice, they shall rise out of the graves, many shall go enter eternal life, many shall go enter eternal punishment. There is only one event of the resurrection day at Christ's coming, and one judgement day at Christ's coming.

Jude 14-15 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the LORD cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgement upon ALLLLLLLL, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have godly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

Jude 14-15 tell us very clear, that Enoch's vision, he saw Christ shall come with Christians(notice, Greek word of 'saints'is little different spelling of saints in Interlinear Greek-English book, 'saints' of Jude 14 in Greek word for angels), then Christ shall judge all people over the world. Enoch saw only one coming, and one judgement.

Romans 2:5 "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart tresurest up unto thyself wrath against the DAY of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God; who will render to EVERY man according to his deeds:"

Romans 2:5 clear tell us, in that day, Christ shall be wrath and judge the world is the only ONE judgement day.

Romans 2:16 "IN the DAY when God shall judge the secerts of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

Romans 2:16 clear tell us, in THAT DAY, Christ shall judge people's secert of their deeds, there is the only ONE judgement day.

Acts 24:15 "And have hope(eternal life of Titus 1:2, 2:13, and 3:7) toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be A resurrection of the dead, BOTH of the just and unjust."

Acts 24:15 tells us, very clear, when Christ shall come, both just and unjust shall be resurrection to eternal life, and to eternal punishment. There is the only ONE resurrection event in the last day (John 6:39,40,44, and 54).

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement:"

Notice, it says, "after this"

After this- what?

Death

Then, what the next after death?

THE JUDGMENT!

Heb. 9:27 teaches us, once for allll people to die, then all shall face the judgement. It teaches us, there is the only ONE judgement day.

1 Peter 4:5 "Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead."

1 Peter 4:5 teaches us very clear, Christ shall judge both just and unjust, is the only ONE judgement day on the last day (John 6:39,40,44, & 54)

There are so overwhelm facts in the Bible teaching us, there shall be one judgment day at Christ's coming.

The Bible never saying a verse, there will be two or three future judgement days. Dispensationalism caused people into confusion because of divided people of the world into several groups like as "Israel", "Church", "Tribulation saints", "Millennial saints', etc.

You asked me,

I am curious to wonder why you reject the literal interpretation

I never saying that I reject interpretation. You just jump by determining what I saying. I never saying it. I do believe there are so many literal in the Bible. Depend on what verse is talking about.

I believe:

Creation of heaven and earth - literal seven days

flood destroyed earth competely - literal

fire destroyed Sodom - literal

God caused Red Sea apart into dried surface, allowed Hewbrews walking acorss dried Red Sea - literal

the virgin birth of Christ- literal

Jesus walked on the sea - literal

Jesus feed 5,000 people with only two fishes and five breads - literal

Jesus died physically on the cross - literal

Jesus rose physically from the death - literal

Jesus ascends into heaven - literal

Jesus shall come again in physical - literal

all people shall be risen from the grave in physical - literal

all believers shall be caught up, and changed into immortality in physical - literal

Jesus shall judge all people - literal

earth shall be destroyed by fire - literal

Christ shall recreate new earth - literal

New Jerusalem city shall descend on the new earth - literal.

Believers shall reigning with Christ on earth in physical - literal

There are so plenty verses in the Bible describe are literal.

But, not every verses in the Bible are always literal, depend on what the verse is talking about. Many verses are figurative, symbol, spiritual, parable, literal, etc.

We have to be carefully when we read and study the Bible. Ask the Holy Spirit for His guide us to understand the Bible better.

By the way, yes, Christ shall give rewards to Christians on the judgement seat of Christ/great white throne.

Understand, the word, 'bema' in Greek word #968, is not meaning of reward. It defines, throne.

I asking you, does the scripture saying great white throne is for the sinners?

Notice, jbrumley gave the list or order about the judgement day. He is correct. Where these find in the Bible?

In 1 Cor. 6:2 tells us, we as Christians shall judge the sinners. Also, 1 Cor. 6:3 tells us, we shall judge the fallen angels.

I believe in the order on the judgement day would be:

1. We shall see Christ will judge Satan/beast/false prophet(not literal three persons, but three in one-Devil's trinity - Rev. 16:13-14), Satan shall be revealed in the presence of the world. I believe, first, Satan shall transform into man to be act like as Messiah to deceived the world. When Christ comes, Satan/false messiah shall be capture, and bring him to face Christ to judge him. We shall see Satan cast into the lake of fire in physical and literal.

2. We shall judge the fallen angels, all fallen angels shall cast into the lake of fire

3. We shall judge the world

4. Christ shall judge unbelievers of their deeds, and their name is not find written in the book of fire, cast them into lake of fire

5. Christ shall reward believers' works, and shall give special eternality job or task to believers for to reigning with Christ on new earth

6. Christ shall recreate new earth and new heaven

7. New Jerusalem shall descend out of heaven, land on the new earth, we shall dwell in it with Christ, and we shall reigning with Christ forever and ever........ Amen!

That is what the Bible teaching us about the future things.

I am looking for the blessed hope, and new earth too. Also, I am looking for Christ's apppearing too!!

Aren't you looking for Christ's appearing?

Amen!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[creemos]

Here's an interesting thought concerning the rapture:

"If we put off corruptible and put on incorruptible- then we do not actually vanish, we are changed in a twinkling of an eye receiving glorified bodies! Hence, our earthly tabernacles remain behind and scattered all over the world for unbelievers to gawk at!" Is it possible that more than just our clothes are left behind?

Pssssttt... I am being just a little light hearted here folks!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Yes, Creemos, i think that is why my mommy used to
tell me: "put on clean socks, you might get embarassed".
How embarassing to get raptured and
leave behind a wrinkelly body and dirty socks

DeafPosttrib: "All of these believed Christ
shall come again, to judge the quick and
the dead."

Every true Christian of all centuries have believed
this. It cannot be used to prove:

1. Christ shall come again,
to judge the quick and the dead
on Thursday

2. Christ shall come again,
to judge the quick and the dead
on one and only one 8-hour work day

3. Christ shall come again,
to judge the quick and the dead
amoung the saved and the unsaved

 

[Ed Edwards]

Interesting literals you have there, brother DPT.
I believe them every one.
In addition, I believe the following:

1. There is a literal Throne of David
on a literal earth
in a literal Jerusalem
and Jesus will rule the literal earth
from the literal Jerusalem on
the literal throne of David
for a literal 1,000 years

2. in a literal tribulation period
distinct from the Great Tribulation period
that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:21-22.

3. I believe in a literal Great Tribulation
Period spoken of my Jesus in Matthew 24:21-22.
It will be a literal time seperate from the
literal time of the Gentiles (AKA: Church Age)

 

[postrib]

Greetings in Jesus' name,

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 02:56 AM:
". . . Rev. 14:19,20 about the second coming . . . "

Just as Revelation 14:14-16 doesn't show the second coming of Christ or the resurrection and rapture of the church, but shows Christ reaping the souls of those dying under the Antichrist into heaven (Revelation 14:11-16), so the subsequent treading of the winepress of the wrath of God in Revelation 14:19-20 could refer to the Antichrist's taking and slaughtering of many unbelievers who will refuse to worship him (e.g. diehard Orthodox Jews, Muslims, atheists, etc.), the slaughter of whom will be God's wrath against them, just as the slaughter of ancient Israel by foreign powers was God's treading unbelieving Israel as in a winepress (Lamentations 1:15).

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 02:56 AM:
". . . 2 Tim. 4:1 tells us, Christ shall judge both quick and the dead AT his appearing and the kingdom. Quick represents believers, dead represents unbelievers . . . "

Again, 2 Timothy 4:1 doesn't say or require that any unbelievers will be eternally judged immediately after the second coming. 2 Timothy 4:1 could be referring to the quick believers who will still be on the earth and to the dead believers who will return with Christ at His second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52).

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 02:56 AM:
". . . Matt 25:31-46 tells us, Christ shall judge both 'sheep' and 'goats' AT HIS APPEARING . . . "

Again, Matthew 25:31-46 doesn't require that Christ eternally judge all unbelievers immediately after His second coming, only that He eternally judge them sometime subsequent to His second coming. The judgment of unbelievers isn't seen at the second coming (Revelation 19), but is seen after the millennium and the battle of Gog and Magog (Revelation 20:7-15). The thousand years is clearly mentioned in the context of Revelation 20:7-15.

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 02:56 AM:
". . . John 5:28-29 . . . "

John 5:28-29 refers to the second resurrection (Revelation 20:12-13) after the millennium (Revelation 20:7); it doesn't refer to the first resurrection before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6).

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:38 AM:
". . . they all went to heaven . . . "

If we endure to the end of the tribulation (Matthew 24:13), we which are alive and remain on the earth will certainly be raptured as high as the clouds to meet Jesus as He descends from heaven at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), but no scripture says we will be raptured all the way into the third heaven.

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:38 AM:
". . . before the Tribulation started . . . "

In the Bible we see that no scripture says that the rapture will be before the tribulation starts. Matthew 24:29-31 shows Jesus coming and gathering together His elect in the rapture after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to this same coming and gathering together (verse 1) and confirms that it can't happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8). Revelation 13:10 and Revelation 14:12-13 confirm that we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we will need patience and faith during that time.

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:44 AM:
". . . Some future coming must be CALLED the Second Coming, but is really the third or forth, or 15th . . . "

We are still waiting for Christ to appear (or come) physically the second time (Hebrews 9:28; Acts 1:11). No scripture refers to or requires multiple future appearances (or comings) of Christ.

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:44 AM:
". . . 'First coming' and 'Second coming' are both sets with multiple events in them . . . "

Actually, no scripture refers to or requires multiple phases of the second coming whereby He comes, goes back to heaven for some years, and then comes back again a third time. There's no third coming.

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:51 PM:
". . . the book of Revelation is not written into chronological order . . . "

Again, the post-trib view allows for the seals, trumpets, and vials to occur in chronological order, for the seven angels may not even be given the seven trumpets until after the seventh seal has been unsealed (Revelation 8:1-2), and the seven plagues of the seven vials could come out of the temple-opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19; Revelation 15:5-7).

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:51 PM:
". . . 6th trumpet in Rev. 9:14 tells us, Euphrates River shall be dried up . . . "

Actually, Revelation 9:14 makes no reference to the drying up of the Euphrates.

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:51 PM:
". . . Rev. 6:13 shall be end of the great Tribulation at the coming of the Lord by follow the cosmic disturbance . . . "

The post-trib view includes various views regarding the sixth seal. One points out that there's no coming of Christ or rapture seen at the sixth seal, so it could simply be a cataclysmic event during the tribulation which precedes the rapture by some years. The signs of Revelation 6:12-13 aren't the same signs as Matthew 24:29; not only are their timing completely different, the former signs occurring sometime during the tribulation (like Luke 21:11) and the latter signs not occurring until after the tribulation (like Luke 21:25); but they also involve different elements: the former signs including a great earthquake (like Luke 21:11), the latter signs not including an earthquake (like Luke 21:25); the former signs having the moon turning blood-red, the latter signs having the moon not give any light at all.

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:51 PM:
". . . Rev. 20:4-6 covers the whole church history from Calvary to the end of the world . . . "

Actually, it doesn't. Again, the post-trib view allows for there to be a millennium. The millennium of Revelation 20 must occur after the second coming of Revelation 19 because the millennium won't begin until after the resurrection of the church (Revelation 20:6), and those Christians martyred under the reign of the Antichrist will also reign with Christ for the thousand years (Revelation 20:4).

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:51 PM:
". . . reigning with Christ in the heaven . . . "

In Revelation 20:4-5, John sees living, resurrected people ("they lived . . . this is the first resurrection"), including those who had been beheaded under the reign of the Antichrist, reigning with Christ on the earth for the thousand years.

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:51 PM:
". . . The battle of Gog and Magog is synonymous as battle of Armageddon . . . "

Actually it isn't. Revelation 19:19 - 20:3 and Revelation 20:7-10 refer to two separate battles. The first battle is led by the beast, occurs at the second coming, and culminates with Satan being bound in the bottomless pit for a thousand years. The second battle is led by Gog and Magog, occurs "after the thousand years are expired," and culminates with Satan being cast into the lake of fire forever.

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:51 PM:
". . . Rev. 6:15-16 tell us, when after the unbelievers see the cosmic disturbance appear, and they will be fear and flee hide from the face of the wrath of Christ . . . "

Some of those who hold the position that the rapture will be after the tribulation don't believe that the sixth seal must necessarily be God's wrath, but that the people could be only thinking that it's His wrath (Revelation 6:17), just as the suffering that was brought against Job wasn't actually God's wrath even though Job thought that it was (Job 19:11). No one in heaven calls the seals (Revelation 6) or trumpets (Revelation 8-9) of the tribulation God's wrath. They only call the vials of the tribulation (Revelation 16) God's wrath, and none of the vials will be directed against the believers who will be on the earth.

Just as nothing says or requires that the sixth seal is actually immediately before the wrath of the Lamb, so nothing says or requires that the terrified unbelievers can actually see the face of the Father on His throne in heaven (Revelation 5:7; Acts 7:56).

 

[postrib]

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:51 PM:
". . . Rev. 11:18 tells us, after the seventh trumpet blown, the wrath of God will punish down on all unbelievers, Christ shall judge on all unbelievers at his coming . . . "

I agree that the statement in Revelation 11:18 is made at the seventh trumpet. But no scripture says or requires that Christ will eternally judge any unbelievers immediately after the seventh trumpet, and a "time" can refer to up to a year (e.g. Daniel 7:25), so that Revelation 11:18 doesn't require that Jesus judge believers immediately after the seventh trumpet. Jesus may not come and judge believers until some seventy-five days after the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

From the abomination of desolation, the Antichrist will be given legal rule over the earth for 1,260 days (Revelation 13:5; compare Luke 4:5-7), at the end of which time the seventh trumpet will announce Christ's taking legal rule over the earth (Revelation 11:15-17), and the temple in heaven will be opened (Revelation 11:19). Out of this temple-opening will come forth the seven plagues of the seven vials (Revelation 15:5-7) to commence as temporal judgment upon the Antichrist and his kingdom. Vials 1-6 (Revelation 16:1-14) could last for thirty days. On the 1,290th day, after the sixth vial has been poured out, the promise of blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 will be given to those saints still alive on the earth. After this promise of blessing, the completion of the sixth vial's gathering of all the armies of the whole world to Armageddon (Revelation 16:16, 19:19), followed by the seventh vial (Revelation 16:17-21), could take forty-five days, so that Christ will come to resurrect, rapture and judge the church, and destroy the Antichrist and his armies (Revelation 19:20-21; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), on the 1,335th day, and blessed are those who wait until that day (Daniel 12:12, Revelation 16:15).

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:51 PM:
". . . Rev. 19:18 tells us, all people of the world shall be all gathering together for to face the judgement at the coming of Christ . . . "

Just as the drowning of the Egyptian Army (Exodus 14:28) didn't involve all the other unbelievers in Egypt who were not in the Army, and just as the "all men" in Revelation 19:18 doesn't require that all believing men will be eaten by the birds, so it doesn't require that all unbelieving men will be eaten by the birds. Revelation 19:18 refers only to all the unbelieving men gathered in the armies that are slain in Revelation 19:19-21. It doesn't refer to every last unbeliever on the earth, for some unbelievers who aren't in the armies will be "left" alive (Matthew 24:40; Zechariah 14:16).

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:51 PM:
". . . Christ never saying to his disciples that these people who WILL COME to faith in Christ DURING millennial age anywhere in the four gospels . . . "

Again, Christ had previously revealed this to the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 66:19-21.

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:51 PM:
". . . Same with the flood . . . "

Again, Matthew 24:39 doesn't require that all unbelievers will be destroyed at the second coming just as all unbelievers were destroyed in the flood, only that the unbelievers taken away at the second coming will "know not" until they are taken away, just as all the unbelievers destroyed in the flood "knew not" until they were taken away, for the very next verse indicates that at the second coming only some unbelievers will be taken away, while others will be left (compare Zechariah 14:16).

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:51 PM:
". . . No unbeliever shall enter the eternality kingdom - 1 Cor. 15:50 . . . "

While it's true that no unbelievers will be able to enter into God's eternal kingdom in the New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:14-15), no scripture says or requires that no unbelievers will be able to enter into the millennial kingdom, for we even see the opposite in passages such as Zechariah 14:16-19. 1 Corinthians 15:50 refers only to "inheriting" the kingdom; there can be unbelievers in the millennial kingdom who have not inherited the kingdom, just as there can be people in a house who have not inherited that house.

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:51 PM:
". . . Isaiah 66:19-21 do not saying anything about the future millennial age, because it does not mentioned, 'a thousand years' . . . "

Isaiah 66:19-21 doesn't have to specifically refer to a thousand years to be referring to the same millennial period in which Christ's kingdom will be exerted physically "over all the earth" (Zechariah 14:9-21; Revelation 20:4-6; Revelation 5:10; Revelation 2:26-27; Psalms 2:8-12; Micah 4:2-3).

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:51 PM:
". . . Jesus does not saying anything about millennial kingdom anywhere in the context of Matthew chapter 13 . . . "

Again, Matthew 13:39-42 doesn't have to specifically mention the thousand years for it to be referring to the same event as Revelation 20:15, which is the casting of all those not written in the book of life into the lake of fire at the white throne judgment after the millennium and the battle of Gog and Magog (Revelation 20:7-15).

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:51 PM:
". . . Cannot you understand what 'end of the world/age' talking about? . . . "

Again, Matthew 13:40's reference to the end of the world (or age) can be a reference to the end of the millennial age, subsequent to which the earth will flee away (Revelation 20:11) and be replaced by the new earth (Revelation 21:1).

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:51 PM:
". . . 'a thousand years' is not mentioned anywhere in the context of Zechariah chapter 14 . . . "

A thousand years don't have to be specifically referred to in Zechariah 14:16-21 for it to be referring to the same millennial reign of Christ on earth as Revelation 20:4, which reign will be "over all the earth" (Zechariah 14:9) and will continue "from year to year" (Zechariah 14:16) and "in summer and in winter" (Zechariah 14:8).

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:51 PM:
". . . Zech. 14:16 speaks of Gentiles who were against Jerusalem during Old Testament time . . . "

Zechariah 14:3-5 shows the second coming of Christ and Zechariah 14:6-21 shows what will occur on the earth subsequent to the second coming. There will be unbelievers "left" after the second coming (Zechariah 14:16; compare Matthew 24:40), "heathen" nations who won't come up to worship Jesus without great punishment (Zechariah 14:17-19; see also Psalms 2:8-12), unbelieving nations which believers will rule over with a rod of iron during the millennium and break to shivers like a potter's vessel (Revelation 2:26-27).

From the post in this thread made on March 30, 2004 08:51 PM:
". . . not have time to judge all Christians of all centuries from creation to the end of tribulation period . . . "

The time is there at the second coming, for "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years" (2 Peter 3:8). And just as God now hears the prayers of all believers at the same time and works in the lives of all believers at the same time, so at the second coming He could judge all believers at the same time.

From the post in this thread made on April 02, 2004 08:38 AM:
". . . time of the Gentiles . . . "

The "times of the Gentiles" referred to in Luke 21:24 can't be fulfilled before the tribulation because they will still be treading down Jerusalem during the tribulation (Revelation 11:2).

From the post in this thread made on April 02, 2004 08:38 AM:
". . . Church Age . . . "

The scriptures nowhere refer to a church age, but instead say that the church will continue throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21). The church is made up of all believers of all time, whether Jewish or Gentile (1 Corinthians 12:13), for there's only one faith, and only one body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23). The Christians who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be members of the church, for they (like other Christians) will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14), will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13).

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May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Postrib,

I will reply back to you on Monday. I will have plenty time to reply back.

Also,

Ed, I will reply back to you. Discuss on 'age' on Monday.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!