Re spirits in Prison and the common view

[DHK]

---Christ led these captives in His train when He ascended into heaven where they wait with the other redeemed in paradise for the first resurrection.

Abraham, Lazarus, and OT saints were not fallen angels. That is who Christ led from paradise to heaven. What is described in 1Peter 3 is not paradise.

The few relevant texts about these "men of renown" who died in the flood

They were evil spirits. They were not "men of renown."
Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

The term "sons of God" is used. Those are fallen angels, spirit beings. The term is also employed in the book of Job. They are not called "men of renown," never. Sometime later some of their offspring or descendants may have had that term, but not them. It was immediately after these fallen angels had assumed bodies and had taken them wives, that God condemned the wickedness of the earth, and set in motion his plan for the destruction of the world by a Flood.

to become the "spirits in prison" suggest to me they weren't all that bad,

Evil spirits, followers of Satan are always bad! How evil can satan and his followers be? "Not all that bad"???

and likely believed themselves ineligible for salvation because the image of God in them was defiled with angelic DNA.

Fallen angels don't have DNA. They are spirit beings. They inhabited a human body for a temporary time. It is the demonic spirit that is chained forever in darkness awaiting the judgement day.

"Formerly disobedient" suggests they were "living according to God in the spirit" when Christ descended to preach to them. They are a special case and that explains the special trip to them while Christ was in Hades.

"Formerly disobedient" refers to: 1) the time of Noah, and 2) the time that they had followed Satan in his rebellion against God.
Christ does not have to explain his actions to you. He is not accountable to you. He is God; He is sovereign. He does what He does according to His own will and purposes. He had his reason for proclaiming victory to the imprisoned spirits, and did so while he set those in paradise free and led them to heaven.

The parallels to Christ descending to preach to us, and His descending to preach to the spirits in prison, the symbolism of being buried and raised, and saved through the answer of a good conscience by the resurrection of Christ...is the Type and Antitype, in them and us...the mention of Noah was first to identify who the spirits in prison are, then to include Noah & crew who were also saved by their answer of a good conscience through the water when they entered the Ark.

You have a vivid imagination.
There is no such parallel.
It is heresy to say that Christ would preach to demons, a salvation message, when they are awaiting a final sentence to be thrown into the Lake of Fire which was prepared especially for them.

As the value of the Ransom of God the Son is infinite, it has infinite potential to redeem all before Calvary therefore Noah & crew are also saved by the resurrection of Christ. No one is saved apart from Christ, no one is saved because of works. Salvation is by grace alone for everyone, even those "judged by their works to be sheep" enter the Kingdom, by the Gracious invite of the Word of God, and not because of their works.

All mankind. That doesn't include demons and Satan.

This is not heresy. Its primitive Christian eschatology found in the NT and early Christian texts. What Protestants now believe about hell is mostly a carry over from Catholicism...the premises were largely kept, only some Catholic teachings like indulgences, purgatory, prayers for saints were (rightly) rejected.

Show me one Scripture where salvation is offered to Satan or any of his demons.

 

[Yeshua1]

Abraham, Lazarus, and OT saints were not fallen angels. That is who Christ led from paradise to heaven. What is described in 1Peter 3 is not paradise.
They were evil spirits. They were not "men of renown."
Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

The term "sons of God" is used. Those are fallen angels, spirit beings. The term is also employed in the book of Job. They are not called "men of renown," never. Sometime later some of their offspring or descendants may have had that term, but not them. It was immediately after these fallen angels had assumed bodies and had taken them wives, that God condemned the wickedness of the earth, and set in motion his plan for the destruction of the world by a Flood.
Evil spirits, followers of Satan are always bad! How evil can satan and his followers be? "Not all that bad"???
Fallen angels don't have DNA. They are spirit beings. They inhabited a human body for a temporary time. It is the demonic spirit that is chained forever in darkness awaiting the judgement day.
"Formerly disobedient" refers to: 1) the time of Noah, and 2) the time that they had followed Satan in his rebellion against God.
Christ does not have to explain his actions to you. He is not accountable to you. He is God; He is sovereign. He does what He does according to His own will and purposes. He had his reason for proclaiming victory to the imprisoned spirits, and did so while he set those in paradise free and led them to heaven.
You have a vivid imagination.
There is no such parallel.
It is heresy to say that Christ would preach to demons, a salvation message, when they are awaiting a final sentence to be thrown into the Lake of Fire which was prepared especially for them.
All mankind. That doesn't include demons and Satan.
Show me one Scripture where salvation is offered to Satan or any of his demons.

the term of Jesus proclaiming to them is same word used in the times of a ruler announcing complete/total victory over his defeated foes!

Jesus would announce that he is the risen Lord, master over sin/death/Devil all things, and to take back with him those there who were saved and in Abrahams Bosum, NOT offering second chance to sinners/demons/satan!

 

[Alfred Persson.]

It doesn't matter how you "interpret" the Greek. When you have "interpreted" the Greek to contradict what the majority of the Bible teaches then you know what you have done is wrong, and you need to go back to the drawing table and admit your error.

But I'm not contradicting the Bible, I'm contradicting Catholic premises the Reformers should have contradicted. They did a great job on Grace, a lousy job on Hell.

As a former Hell fire teacher ---I was diluting our LORD Jesus' teaching about Gehenna.

Lazarus was in Torments in Hades but Hades is a vacation compared PHYSICAL TORMENTS in Gehenna.

Hades will be emptied out and cast into the lake of fire, meaning its temporary...not the place of eternal torment. Eternal torment happens in the Lake of fire, also known as Gehenna, a furnace of fire:

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(Rev 20:13-14 KJV)

Gehenna or lake of fire is the permanent place of ETERNAL TORMENT for all who did eternal sins and it is much much worse than Hades.

Compared to Gehenna of fire----where the wicked are imprisoned in contemptible flesh (Dan 12:2) animated corpses (Isa 66:24) that are bound hand and foot (Mat 22:13) so they can't move to lessen the intense physical pain like unto fire and a corrupting worm, causing them to uncontrollably weep and gnash their teeth (Mark 9:42-48)----a stint in Hades is like being on vacation, Dives was able to talk, think…interact with others.

So classic hell fire preaching is watering down Christ's teaching about Gehenna.

Christ spoke more about Gehenna than he did about Heaven or Hades, and He said we should fear God--- not because he casts into Hades, but because casts into Gehenna body and soul:

He raises the dead in animated corpses that imprison the souls communicating the Terrible Wrath of an Offended Holy God---as pain like unto a corrupting worm; as fire that can't be quenched...

so the souls trapped within them can only weep, and gnash their teeth....if the pain allows them to think at all about other things, if they looked back to their time in Hades, they would long for its embrace...

YLT Matthew 5:22 but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.
29 'But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.
YLT Matthew 5:30 'And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.
YLT Matthew 10:28 'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
YLT Matthew 18:9 'And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire.
YLT Matthew 23:15 'Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye go round the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen -- ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves.
YLT Matthew 23:33 'Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
YLT Mark 9:43 'And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
YLT Mark 9:45 'And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
YLT Mark 9:47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --
YLT Luke 12:5 but I will show to you, whom ye may fear; Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna; yes, I say to you, Fear ye Him.
YLT James 3:6 and the tongue is a fire, the world of the unrighteousness, so the tongue is set in our members, which is spotting our whole body, and is setting on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by the gehenna.

So all the church has watered down the teaching of Jesus Christ and is liable.

I want to make sure when He comes, I'm not also guilty of watering down His solemn warnings about Gehenna of fire, a place far worse than anything in Dante's Inferno.

The horror of Gehenna is great God created Hades hoping to convince some of those on the broad way into destruction, that perhaps accepting God's offer of salvation is best.




I'm a little busy right now with my business and other chores, I will treat the rest of your post when I can.


10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (Mat 3:10 KJV)

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Act 17:30-31 KJV)

 

[DHK]

But I'm not contradicting the Bible, I'm contradicting Catholic premises the Reformers should have contradicted. They did a great job on Grace, a lousy job on Hell.

As a former Hell fire teacher ---I was diluting our LORD Jesus' teaching about Gehenna.

Lazarus was in Torments in Hades but Hades is a vacation compared PHYSICAL TORMENTS in Gehenna.

Hades will be emptied out and cast into the lake of fire, meaning its temporary...not the place of eternal torment. Eternal torment happens in the Lake of fire, also known as Gehenna, a furnace of fire:

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(Rev 20:13-14 KJV)

Gehenna or lake of fire is the permanent place of ETERNAL TORMENT for all who did eternal sins and it is much much worse than Hades.

Compared to Gehenna of fire----where the wicked are imprisoned in contemptible flesh (Dan 12:2) animated corpses (Isa 66:24) that are bound hand and foot (Mat 22:13) so they can't move to lessen the intense physical pain like unto fire and a corrupting worm, causing them to uncontrollably weep and gnash their teeth (Mark 9:42-48)----a stint in Hades is like being on vacation, Dives was able to talk, think…interact with others.

So classic hell fire preaching is watering down Christ's teaching about Gehenna.

Christ spoke more about Gehenna than he did about Heaven or Hades, and He said we should fear God--- not because he casts into Hades, but because casts into Gehenna body and soul:

He raises the dead in animated corpses that imprison the souls communicating the Terrible Wrath of an Offended Holy God---as pain like unto a corrupting worm; as fire that can't be quenched...

so the souls trapped within them can only weep, and gnash their teeth....if the pain allows them to think at all about other things, if they looked back to their time in Hades, they would long for its embrace...

YLT Matthew 5:22 but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.
29 'But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.
YLT Matthew 5:30 'And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.
YLT Matthew 10:28 'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
YLT Matthew 18:9 'And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire.
YLT Matthew 23:15 'Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye go round the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen -- ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves.
YLT Matthew 23:33 'Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
YLT Mark 9:43 'And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
YLT Mark 9:45 'And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
YLT Mark 9:47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --
YLT Luke 12:5 but I will show to you, whom ye may fear; Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna; yes, I say to you, Fear ye Him.
YLT James 3:6 and the tongue is a fire, the world of the unrighteousness, so the tongue is set in our members, which is spotting our whole body, and is setting on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by the gehenna.

So all the church has watered down the teaching of Jesus Christ and is liable.

I want to make sure when He comes, I'm not also guilty of watering down His solemn warnings about Gehenna of fire, a place far worse than anything in Dante's Inferno.

The horror of Gehenna is great God created Hades hoping to convince some of those on the broad way into destruction, that perhaps accepting God's offer of salvation is best.




I'm a little busy right now with my business and other chores, I will treat the rest of your post when I can.


10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (Mat 3:10 KJV)

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Act 17:30-31 KJV)

You make artificial differentiations where there are none. First learn about "gehenna".
From ISBE, written by Gerhard Vos:

[FONT=&quot]ga-hen'-a (geenna (see Grimm-Thayer, under the word)): Gehenna is a transliteration from the Aramaic form of the Hebrew ge-hinnom, "valley of Hinnom." This latter form, however, is rare in the Old Testament, the prevailing name being "the valley of the son of Hinnom." Septuagint usually translates; where it transliterates the form is different from Gehenna and varies. In the New Testament the correct form is Gee'nna with the accent on the penult, not Ge'enna. There is no reason to assume that Hinnom is other than a plain patronymic, although it has been proposed to find in it the corruption of the name of an idol (EB, II, 2071). In the New Testament (King James Version margin) Gehenna occurs in Mt 5:22,29-30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mr 9:43,15,47; Lu 12:5; Jas 3:6. In all of these it designates the place of eternal punishment of the wicked,

This is not the same as the Lake of Fire. Certainly it is a picture of torment, and Jesus paints it as one. It is a vivid picture as it ought to be. But it is not the Lake of Fire. It may give a picture of what the Lake of Fire will be like but in and of itself it is not the lake of fire.

Now, what about Hades: Here is what Vos says:

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ha'-dez (Haides, haides, "not to be seen"): Hades, Greek originally Haidou, in genitive, "the house of Hades," then, as nominative, designation of the abode of the dead itself. The word occurs in the New Testament in Mt 11:23 (parallel Lu 10:15); Mt 16:18; Lu 16:23; Ac 2:27,31; Re 1:18; 6:8; 20:13 f. It is also found in Textus Receptus of the New Testament 1 Cor 15:55, but here the correct reading (Tischendorf, Westcott and Hort, The New Testament in Greek, the Revised Version (British and American)) is probably Thanate, "O Death," instead of Haide, "O Hades." the King James Version renders "Hades" by "hell" in all instances except 1Co 15:55, where it puts "grave" (margin "hell") in dependence on Ho 13:14. the Revised Version (British and American) everywhere has "Hades."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He also indicates that it is the same word in the Septuagint used for Sheol. Thus the rich man and Lazarus were in hades or sheol. The rich man was in a place of torment, as hell is. Hades is translated hell. It was a place of torment. Both hades and gehenna will cease to exist at the Great White Throne Judgment when all will be cast in the Lake of Fire.
[/FONT]

Vos continues:

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The element of truth in theory of the provisional character of Hades lies in this, that the New Testament never employs it in connection with the final state of punishment, as subsequent to the last judgment. For this GEHENNA (which see) and other terms are used. Dives is represented as being in Hades immediately after his death and while his brethren are still in this present life. Whether the implied differentiation between stages of punishment, depending obviously on the difference between the disembodied and reembodied state of the lost, also carries with itself a distinction between two places of punishment, in other words whether Hades and Gehenna are locally distinct, the evidence is scarcely sufficient to determine. The New Testament places the emphasis on the eschatological developments at the end, and leaves many things connected with the intermediate state in darkness.

[/FONT]
What is known beyond any doubt is that in the end all are thrown in the Lake of Fire. We stick with the facts that we do know.

 

[Alfred Persson.]

You make artificial differentiations where there are none. First learn about "gehenna".
From ISBE, written by Gerhard Vos:


This is not the same as the Lake of Fire. Certainly it is a picture of torment, and Jesus paints it as one. It is a vivid picture as it ought to be. But it is not the Lake of Fire. It may give a picture of what the Lake of Fire will be like but in and of itself it is not the lake of fire.

Its not acceptable Gerhard Vos make a claim and then depart without giving reasons for the claim.

I say they are the same. So my claim cancels his out..

Unlike Vos I can prove my claim.

Both Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are said to be the final place for the wicked and you can't have two different "final" places.

Therefore they must be the same place with different names, like how we are known by more than one name.

Moreover, Gehenna and the Lake of Fire must be the same BECAUSE what is said about Gehenna is said about the Lake of fire, and what is said about both of them is not true about Hades.


For example:

Hades is a place where souls go immediately upon physical death. Unbelievers suffer torments therein UNTIL the Resurrection, when Hades is emptied of its souls:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:13-14 NKJ)

Therefore, according to Jesus Hades cannot be Gehenna because its fires cease tormenting the wicked when they are raised up out of it:

47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --
48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched; (Mar 9:47-48 YLT)

Hades cannot be Gehenna according to Jesus because only souls are in Hades (Luke 16:23) but in Gehenna both body and soul is there (Matt 10:28).

'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna. (Mat 10:28 YLT)


While Hades is where unbelievers go upon death, the lake of fire is where souls that were rejoined to their bodies go, after they are judged. The same is true for Gehenna:

'Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna? (Mat 23:33 YLT)

Unlike Hades which is emptied of inhabitants and cast into the lake of fire, ending any Hades Torment of the wicked---the wicked suffer PHYSICALLY in Gehenna forever:

43 'And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
44 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
45 'And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
46 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --
48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched;
(Mar 9:43-48 YLT)

As there is only 1 place where the wicked will be eternally tormented, Gehenna is also called the Lake of fire.


That Gehenna is another name for the lake of fire is evident by its symbolizing a garbage dump whose fires never are quenched, outside the city of God.

"And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa 66:24 NKJ)

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. (Rev 22:14-15 NKJ)

Therefore it is elementary deduction Gehenna and Hades are too dissimilar to be the same place.

Its time the Reformation go all the way back to Christ and His apostles, and adopt their beliefs about Hell and Judgment Day.

People tend to forget the Reformers were good Catholics, until they weren't.

While the valiantly struggled to recapture the teaching of the primitive church, they failed when it came to eschatology. They simply modified Catholic belief by (rightly) dumping purgatory and prayers to the saints. But the same pagan Dante's Inferno they essentially kept, and it diminishes the teaching of Christ regarding Gehenna.

It was Him who could toss into Gehenna that we should fear, not Him who tosses into Hades.

It is written:

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deu 4:2 KJV)

Claiming Hades is Gehenna is diminishing the Word of God for the traditions of men. All the church is liable save the first century...thereafter novelties were accepted as truth by a Greek speaking church that didn't understand the Jewish concepts Christ and His apostles never contradicted.

Its time Reformers reform all the way back to Christ and His apostles...Catholic eschatology is so confused it requires a magisterium to keep the errors from collapsing the entire construct.

 

[DHK]

Its not acceptable Gerhard Vos make a claim and then depart without giving reasons for the claim.

I say they are the same. So my claim cancels his out..

Unlike Vos I can prove my claim.

Both Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are said to be the final place for the wicked and you can't have two different "final" places.

Therefore they must be the same place with different names, like how we are known by more than one name.

Moreover, Gehenna and the Lake of Fire must be the same BECAUSE what is said about Gehenna is said about the Lake of fire, and what is said about both of them is not true about Hades.

That doesn't make them the same. Gehenna is not the same as the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is found only in one place, and that is in Rev. 20. Gehenna was a term used by Jesus to describe the agony of the torment of hell. Let me remind you that Jesus did not have to confine himself to the vocabulary of "LetsObeyChrist." He could use whatever words, synonyms, etc. that he chose to use. He didn't have to use words to fit your theology. He used Gehenna to figuratively describe what the final doom of those who would reject Christ would be.

For example:

Hades is a place where souls go immediately upon physical death. Unbelievers suffer torments therein UNTIL the Resurrection, when Hades is emptied of its souls:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:13-14 NKJ)

Therefore, according to Jesus Hades cannot be Gehenna because its fires cease tormenting the wicked when they are raised up out of it:

47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --
48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched; (Mar 9:47-48 YLT)

Hades is described the same way, but Hades is specifically described as also being thrown into the Lake of Fire. That is the one basic difference as you have pointed out.

Hades cannot be Gehenna according to Jesus because only souls are in Hades (Luke 16:23) but in Gehenna both body and soul is there (Matt 10:28).

The picture that Jesus gave was not the picture of just "souls." The rich man was in torments. He wanted Lazarus to cool the tip of his tongue. A soul does not have a tongue.

'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna. (Mat 10:28 YLT)

The reference here is simply to the power of God, which is much more than the power of Satan or man.

While Hades is where unbelievers go upon death, the lake of fire is where souls that were rejoined to their bodies go, after they are judged. The same is true for Gehenna:

The Lake of Fire is the final destination for all believers, so ultimately it makes no difference.

'Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna? (Mat 23:33 YLT)

Unlike Hades which is emptied of inhabitants and cast into the lake of fire, ending any Hades Torment of the wicked---the wicked suffer PHYSICALLY in Gehenna forever:

The same is true of Hades which will be dumped into the Lake of Fire. The dichotomy you make here is irrelevant. The final destination is the same. The torment is the same.

43 'And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched;
(Mar 9:43-48 YLT)

Why? Because you cannot fathom Jesus using a wider vocabulary then you have? Gehenna was a description of their final doom, which will come at the end of time.

As there is only 1 place where the wicked will be eternally tormented, Gehenna is also called the Lake of fire.

It is described in the same way as Hades is described. There is no difference as all will end up in the Lake of Fire, not mentioned until Revelation 20.

That Gehenna is another name for the lake of fire is evident by its symbolizing a garbage dump whose fires never are quenched, outside the city of God.

This takes away from your argument. There are no garbage dumps in heaven where that final scene takes place.

"And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa 66:24 NKJ)

Again, it is metaphorical language describing what it will be like.

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. (Rev 22:14-15 NKJ)

Therefore it is elementary deduction Gehenna and Hades are too dissimilar to be the same place.

Ask the rich man. I think he would disagree with you. They both are places of torment, and all will end up in the same place.

Its time the Reformation go all the way back to Christ and His apostles, and adopt their beliefs about Hell and Judgment Day.

People tend to forget the Reformers were good Catholics, until they weren't.

This is a red herring. I don't know what you are talking about. I am a Baptist, and have nothing to do with the Reformation. My sole authority is the Word of God, and always has been.

While the valiantly struggled to recapture the teaching of the primitive church, they failed when it came to eschatology. They simply modified Catholic belief by (rightly) dumping purgatory and prayers to the saints. But the same pagan Dante's Inferno they essentially kept, and it diminishes the teaching of Christ regarding Gehenna.

Another red herring. It is you that has a warped teaching here.

It was Him who could toss into Gehenna that we should fear, not Him who tosses into Hades.

Nothing is tossed into Gehenna. It is descriptive of that which is to come.

It is written:

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deu 4:2 KJV)

Then don't.

Claiming Hades is Gehenna is diminishing the Word of God for the traditions of men. All the church is liable save the first century...thereafter novelties were accepted as truth by a Greek speaking church that didn't understand the Jewish concepts Christ and His apostles never contradicted.

Its time Reformers reform all the way back to Christ and His apostles...Catholic eschatology is so confused it requires a magisterium to keep the errors from collapsing the entire construct.

First, I am not a Reformer, and never was. Your point is moot.
Second, I don't diminish the word of God; I rightly divide it.
Third, you have some weird ideas that you have posted on this board, ideas that even contradict what the true gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is, so if I were you I would look to yourself first before pointing fingers at others.

 

[Alfred Persson.]

[/B]That doesn't make them the same. Gehenna is not the same as the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is found only in one place, and that is in Rev. 20. Gehenna was a term used by Jesus to describe the agony of the torment of hell. Let me remind you that Jesus did not have to confine himself to the vocabulary of "LetsObeyChrist." He could use whatever words, synonyms, etc. that he chose to use. He didn't have to use words to fit your theology. He used Gehenna to figuratively describe what the final doom of those who would reject Christ would be.
[/COLOR]

Incorrect, the "Lake of fire" also occurs 2x in Rev 19:20.

BUT I notice Gehenna appears 12x, Matt. 5:22, 29-30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mk. 9:43, 45, 47; Lk. 12:5; Jas. 3:6 against the 6x "Lake of Fire" appearances.

AND the Gospels are PROSE, that is, written like "newspapers of record," where eyewitness testimony is communicated to the reader so figurative or symbolic language is kept to a minimum while the book of Revelation is full of symbolism, figurative language.

So the facts you cite work against your argument.

I'm not alone:

The lake of fire is probably the same place that Jesus calls Gehenna (Mt 10:28; Mk 9:43; Lk 12:5), the “outer darkness” (Mt 8:12; 22:13; 25:30), and “the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Mt 25:41; cf. Is 66:24).- Elwell, W. A., & Beitzel, B. J. (1988). Baker encyclopedia of the Bible (1299). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House.

He used Gehenna to figuratively describe what the final doom of those who would reject Christ would be.

Now you confuse me, if Christ used Gehenna to describe the final doom, then He used it synonymously with the Lake of Fire, meaning they are the same place.

To illustrate, I could use "New York City" to figuratively refer to all in New York City or use the synonym "The Big Apple"….what this means it’s the same place, just two different names.

Hades is described the same way, but Hades is specifically described as also being thrown into the Lake of Fire. That is the one basic difference as you have pointed out.

Incorrect, I cited hades being cast into the lake of fire as as proving Hades cannot be the eternal place where the wicked are punished, for it is emptied of all its inhabitants just prior to being cast into the lake of fire.

Both the Lake of Fire AND Gehenna are said to be the place of everlasting punishment of the wicked…as the wicked aren't going to be in two places at once, Gehenna and Lake of Fire must be the same place, just called two different names.

In the prose writing of the gospels, its known as Gehenna because that communicates it’s the garbage dump of rejected humanity, but in the symbolic book of Revelation it’s the "lake of fire" because it communicates the kind of pain that will be felt therein, fire that covers the flesh like water.

The picture that Jesus gave was not the picture of just "souls." The rich man was in torments. He wanted Lazarus to cool the tip of his tongue. A soul does not have a tongue.

Yes, figures of speech exist in this parable, but its expressly stated the rich man was out of his body…he was buried first and then in Hades he was in torment.

Therefore it is "natural" we see the reference to a "tongue" as figurative, not literal.

THAT is unlike Christ warning we should fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. That's not figurative at all.

'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna. (Mat 10:28 YLT)

The reference here is simply to the power of God, which is much more than the power of Satan or man.

AND why is God's power more? If Gehenna is Hades then both Satan and man can kill just like God, meaning Jesus is incorrect...we should fear all three.

ONLY if Gehenna is NOT Hades, ONLY if God's Destroying BOTH body and soul in Gehenna is far worse than being tormented in Hades until the Resurrection....does Christ's warning make sense.

Therefore Christ did not believe Gehenna was Hades by another name.

While Hades is where unbelievers go upon death, the lake of fire is where souls that were rejoined to their bodies go, after they are judged. The same is true for Gehenna:
The Lake of Fire is the final destination for all believers, so ultimately it makes no difference.

Hades is emptied out, then cast into the lake of fire. Then all not in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. You argue because they both end up in the same place (Lake of fire), Hades is the Lake of fire?

Lets illustrate the logic of your argument to see if it still makes sense:

A box of toy soldiers is emptied out and cast into the lake; Then the box is cast into the lake. Therefore as they both end up in the same place, the box is the lake.

Sorry, the logic doesn't work.

'Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna? (Mat 23:33 YLT)

Unlike Hades which is emptied of inhabitants and cast into the lake of fire, ending any Hades Torment of the wicked---the wicked suffer PHYSICALLY in Gehenna forever:

The same is true of Hades which will be dumped into the Lake of Fire. The dichotomy you make here is irrelevant. The final destination is the same. The torment is the same.

The torment is NOT the same, Hades torments souls after they are buried, both Gehenna and Lake of Fire torments BODY and SOUL after they are resurrected from Hades, to stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

While Dives could discuss things with Abraham, that doesn't seem possible for someone weeping and gnashing their teeth as they lay in fire that feels like a lake around their body.

Therefore Hades is NOT the Lake of Fire or Gehenna.

Why? Because you cannot fathom Jesus using a wider vocabulary then you have? Gehenna was a description of their final doom, which will come at the end of time.

I must defend myself, never said Jesus didn't have complete command of the language:

In Christ all things consist and have their being:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (Col 1:17 KJV)

Therefore the infinite God the Eternal Son has no limits.

But Christ didn't say Dives was afflicted with worms and gnashed his teeth, He says that is true of those in Gehenna…therefore Hades is not Gehenna.

As there is only 1 place where the wicked will be eternally tormented, Gehenna is also called the Lake of fire.
It is described in the same way as Hades is described. There is no difference as all will end up in the Lake of Fire, not mentioned until Revelation 20.

Hades is emptied out, then cast into the lake of fire. Then all not in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. You argue because they both end up in the same place (Lake of fire), Hades is the Lake of fire?

Lets illustrate the logic of your argument to see if it still makes sense:

A box of toy soldiers is emptied out and cast into the lake; Then the box is cast into the lake. Therefore as they both end up in the same place, the box is the lake.

Sorry, the logic doesn't work.

Claiming Hades is Gehenna is diminishing the Word of God for the traditions of men. All the church is liable save the first century...thereafter novelties were accepted as truth by a Greek speaking church that didn't understand the Jewish concepts Christ and His apostles never contradicted.

Its time Reformers reform all the way back to Christ and His apostles...Catholic eschatology is so confused it requires a magisterium to keep the errors from collapsing the entire construct.

First, I am not a Reformer, and never was. Your point is moot.
Second, I don't diminish the word of God; I rightly divide it.
Third, you have some weird ideas that you have posted on this board, ideas that even contradict what the true gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is, so if I were you I would look to yourself first before pointing fingers at others.

Ok, so you connect to the Anabaptists, and not the reformers. Sorry for the mistake.

The entire church disagrees with each other on everything…so if I'm weird…got lots of company.

I wasn't pointing fingers, I made a true statement about the Reformers. They were good men. They left the Catholic church because of the abuses. But you don't leave your lifelong church and discard everything it taught, easily…I suggest Catholic "Dante's Inferno" views about hell, which are popular in our culture today---are not what Christ and His apostles taught and I am ready to prove my claim, with scripture.

That's not pointing fingers….its always being "ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed." (1Pe 3:15 NKJ)

 

[DHK]

First of all, you have gotten away from the OP on this tangent and I don't know why.
Secondly, your argument is not about words, it is about theology which you are trying to defend with words and their definitions but can't.
Thirdly, to prove my case it is this simple:
1. Gehenna is found in the NT 12 times. 11 times it is translated hell, and once it is translated "hell fire."
2. Hades is found in the NT 11 times. Ten times it is translated hell, and once it is translated "grave."

These are the two words that are translated hell, and that very scholarly well-educated translators thought would bring forth accurately the meaning of hell, whether depicted by the rich man and Lazarus, or by other scriptures using Gehenna. They both give the same picture.

The phrase "lake of fire" does not even occur until the book of Revelation, and is a future event. In effect you are playing a game of semantics for no reason at all. Right now there exists a "hell" that in the Bible is being described by two different words. At the second resurrection all that are in that hell will be sentenced to their final doom, the Lake of Fire. It is that simple.

If you want to debate that subject further then start another thread on it.
You are off topic here, and you are simply splitting hairs for all the unsaved end up in the same place of torment any way.