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Real Gospel or Pseudo-Gospel?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Mike Gascoigne, Jul 30, 2003.

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  1. Mike Gascoigne

    Mike Gascoigne <img src=/mike.jpg>

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    This topic was originally posted as a response, within a thread called "Doctrines relating to the C/E controversy", under "Creation vs. Evolution". However, I am re-posting it here because it isn't really about Creation and Evolution. It's about what we believe about fundamental issues such as sin and it's consequences, and our need for salvation. It's too important to be buried in a thread somewhere else, so I am re-posting it here. The message is as follows:

    *********

    Back in the 1960's I used to go to a Baptist church where everybody believed in Creation, and it was considered to be one of the foundational doctrines of Christianity. Most other churches were like that, and the Gospel was preached on the basis that:

    1. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
    2. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    (and we know where to find all this in the Bible, together with the other verses that follow them in evangelistic campaigns).

    Nowadays we don't hear the message so clearly. Instead we get something like "We have messed up our lives and Jesus can help us to get it sorted out". It seems almost like we have sinned against ourselves, not against God, and it's no longer a life and death issue.

    At the same time, I find that many Christians are not prepared to say that death came as a result of Adam's sin. They have compromised with evolution, so that there were millions of years of death and destruction, and survival of the fittest, and Adam was simply the first character to appear in the Bible. Death did not come as a consequence of the sin of Adam, because it was in the world already, and therefore eternal life cannot come as a result of the righteousness of the second Adam, Jesus Christ, and his work of atonement on the cross.

    We still hear about the crucifixion and resurrection, but it doesn't seem to have the same impact any more. If we don't know the meaning of sin, then we don't know the meaning of grace, and Jesus is reduced to a therapeutic counsellor who helps us to fix up our messed up lives.

    I've been a believer in Jesus for about 40 years and I've noticed a slow change that would be almost imperceptible over a period of just a few years, but the change is definitely there, and what we hear today is different from what it used to be. I'd like to know if there are others who feel the same, and would you relate it to the creation/evolution issue?

    Mike
     
    #1 Mike Gascoigne, Jul 30, 2003
  2. ChurchBoy

    ChurchBoy New Member

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    Mike,

    I have only been a Christian less than five years but I am a Bible believing Christian. I am saddened that some Christians would align themselves with athiests and evolutionists because they share a common belief when it comes to origins. These same athiests and evolutions who mock God in their pride and unbelief. It seems to me that trust is the major issue here. Many trust trust their own judgement, ability to reason, and opinions as opposed to relying on God and understanding the world through the Scriptures. Just my humble opinion.
     
    #2 ChurchBoy, Jul 30, 2003
  3. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Not believing in a literal interpretation of Gen 1 or 2 does not equate to mocking God.

    The folks on this board who view Gen 1/2 as nonliteral are as saved, faithful, Bible believing, and God fearing as the rest.
     
    #3 Johnv, Jul 30, 2003
  4. massdak

    massdak Active Member
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    hey slow down some here not so fast, it is possible that they that believe in a false creation or that do not believe in Gods creative attributes as His Word tells us, may in fact could be believing in a different god and a different jesus. something to think about for the liberal view is most dangerous
     
    #4 massdak, Jul 30, 2003
  5. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    My position is that people who do not believe in direct miraculous creation as recorded by Moses and commended by Jesus are wrong.

    Has NOTHING to do with their salvation. Just that in that area of doctrinal interpretation, I think they are wrong. And will say it.

    THEY, in turn, probably think that I am wrong in my position.

    Since there are only about 4500 doctrinal areas in which BORN AGAIN may differ, I figure they have 4499 other chances to agree with me! Hey - they can't ALWAYS be wrong! :rolleyes:
     
    #5 Dr. Bob, Jul 30, 2003
  6. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    The problem with the nonliteral view of Gen 1/2 or for some, 1-11, is that nearly every book in the NT references them as factual. This erodes the integrity of God's Word, making it very difficult and confusing for an unsaved seeker who doesn't know what to believe. I'll leave you with a few examples:

    "For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." (1 Tim 2:13-14 NIV)

    "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--" (Rom 5:12 NIV)

    So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. (1 Cor 15:45 NIV)

    "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men." (Rom 5:18 NIV)

    If you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?" (John 5:46-47 ESV) :confused:
     
    #6 John Wells, Jul 30, 2003
  7. ChurchBoy

    ChurchBoy New Member

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    I didn't say the "non-literalist believers" mock God. I stated that atheists mock God.
     
    #7 ChurchBoy, Jul 30, 2003
  8. ChurchBoy

    ChurchBoy New Member

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    Agreed Dr. Bob! This problems arise when one is sharing one's faith with non-believers. Wouldn't they become confused when a Christian tells them that they too believe in evolution. They will ask if you believe in evolution then why do you need to believe in God?
     
    #8 ChurchBoy, Jul 30, 2003
  9. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Good enough to be posted twice! Well put John Wells!
     
    #9 dianetavegia, Jul 30, 2003
  10. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Thanks Diane!

    Actually I left out probably the most important one:

    (Jesus said) “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” (Mark 10:6-9) (Quoting Gen 2:24)

    If you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?" (John 5:46-47 ESV)

    Now, how do those look back-to-back for the non-literal Genesis heretics? :eek: Think about Jesus' words carefully. Jesus has doubts about those who do not believe Moses. Which part of Moses? The way Jesus put it, I would have to think all of Moses.

    "Evolutionism is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless," says Professor Louis Bouroune, former President of the Biological Society of Strasbourg and Director of the Strasbourg Zoological Museum, later Director of Research at the French National Centre of Scientific Research, as quoted in The Advocate, March 8, 1984.
     
    #10 John Wells, Jul 31, 2003
  11. Artimaeus

    Artimaeus Active Member

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    That's a hard sell.
     
    #11 Artimaeus, Jul 31, 2003
  12. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    I agree. What is actually is, is requiring man to believe in what man says in 'interpreting' Genesis rather than what God says plainly and clearly in His Word.
     
    #12 Helen, Jul 31, 2003
  13. Mike Gascoigne

    Mike Gascoigne <img src=/mike.jpg>

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    Will some of the evolutionist Christians please tell me, what is their doctrine of sin and death, and of grace and salvation?

    If death did not come as a consequence of sin, then what it the cause of death? If the cause has not been identified, then it has not been dealt with.

    My understanding of grace and salvation is that the curse of sin is cancelled, for all those who believe in Jesus, because of his atoning work on the cross. Our mortal bodies will still die, but we will wait for the coming of the Lord and be raised to new life, and be with him forever.

    If the cause of death has not been dealt with, it will still continue, and we will be in the absurd position of dying all over again, even after we have been raised to new life.

    Mike
     
    #13 Mike Gascoigne, Jul 31, 2003
  14. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Mike,

    Well put!

    We await the responses of theistic evolutionists . . . [​IMG]
     
    #14 John Wells, Jul 31, 2003
  15. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Oxymoron statement of the week! :D
     
    #15 John Wells, Jul 31, 2003
  16. NeilUnreal

    NeilUnreal New Member

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    I believe the stories in Genesis are metaphorical descriptions of the condition of humanity as a whole, and each person in particular. They use myth to make a theological point that would escape factual discourse.

    I feel like I'm groaning in bondage to decay. I feel like I've come from some dimly-remembered golden age to which I wish to return. Genesis describes my fall, the scriptures record my struggle to return to God through conquest and legalism, the gospel shows how Christ's gift sets me free.

    The scriptures remind of things we are already experiencing. They give us new ways to think about these issues and problems -- ways to see hope in God's grace.

    So the factual existence of an original sinless state followed by a fall is not relevant to me as a Christian. All I need to know is that I'm in a fallen state, I realize there's something better, and I believe by faith that Christ is salvation.

    -Neil
     
    #16 NeilUnreal, Jul 31, 2003
  17. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Those aren't simple questions, so I'm going to have to rely on answers I've already written:

    Regarding Sin

    Regarding Salvation

    Joshua
     
    #17 Rev. Joshua, Jul 31, 2003
  18. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Neil,

    So are you calling Jesus a liar in Mark 10:6?
     
    #18 John Wells, Jul 31, 2003
  19. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Joshua,

    Here's as far as I got (or care to go):

    "In the second story, God shapes the dirt of the new world into a person, and then breathes into the empty shell. When the spirit of God (for “spirit” and “breath” are one word in Hebrew) enters the lifeless shape, the first man is formed. God then presents each new creature to that first man to be named. When the naming is complete, God learns from the mistakes that had been made in shaping the first male human, irons out the kinks in the design, and makes the first female one." - Joshua Villines

    In your fairy tale your "god" makes mistakes? My God is perfect. Now I know we worship two different gods! :eek:
     
    #19 John Wells, Jul 31, 2003
  20. NeilUnreal

    NeilUnreal New Member

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    No, but I have no problem with Jesus also speaking metaphorically while discussing theological issues.

    If I said "Uncle Sam expects each citizen to do his duty," am I lying because Uncle Sam is a symbol and not an actual person?

    -Neil
     
    #20 NeilUnreal, Jul 31, 2003
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