Reasoning Together

Scripture tells people that scripture can be twisted to people’s destruction, this only happens because of private interpretation.
That’s why Catholics have always been strictly forbidden to engage in private interpretation, because it has fatal spiritual consequences.
Many, many people simply ignore this warning, never once stopping to consider that they are following their own or someone else’s private interpretation of scripture.
Private interpretations are traditions of men, not the tradition of The Holy Spirit handed down from the Apostles father to son in guarded memory.

The Holy Spirit teaches by recalling to people’s memory what had first been taught, this is called Apostolic Tradition.

It is Apostolic Tradition guarded by The Holy Spirit that explains the Written Tradition of Scripture.

Protestantism rejected the Tradition of The Holy Spirit and founded many human traditions on private interpretations of men.
Lutheran tradition founded by Luther, Calvinist traditions founded by Calvin are traditions of men privately interpreting scripture, among many, many others.

None of their novel interpretations of scripture go back to Apostolic times, and they are conflicted on interpretation of Scripture. Scripture is the source of their division, not of unity. Scripture in wrongful hands will always be a source of disunity.

 

how in the wide world of sports does one abide in the Word if he doesn't pursue it for himself? John 15

Being a hearer of the Word isn't bad, of course, but restricting one's "Daily Bread" to that being from, even through, another man, will render exceedingly weak growth.

Perhaps before books were widely available and illiteracy was the norm, there was a place for that ... but given Believers are the royal priesthood ... there's nothing unBiblical about reading/studying The Word for one's self. In fact, the learning begins when the task to TEACH it is underway.

Listen to the Still Small Voice (1 Kings 19:12) ... this is the Apostolic Word ... from The Source. Which can never conflict with The Word.

true ... this follows 2 Tim 2:15 .... but it doesn't direct one to listen only to a priest wearing a black robe.

 

People are quite welcome to read scripture all they like, that’s not the problem. It’s when people privately interpret scripture or follow other private interpretations of scripture they can lead themselves to destruction.

No the Spoken Word of God and Written Word of God are of the same force and abide forever. The Apostles had enormous growth by preaching the Word of God. The Scriptures are God breathed because they were Spoken first. But not all that was Spoken was written.

“So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.” 2 Thessalonians 2:15

Protestantism didn’t stand firm and hold to both the Spoken and Written traditions from the Apostles. In rejecting the Spoken Tradition from the Apostles to follow “ “ scripture alone” they in fact reject the Written Tradition which tells them to hold to both.

The new “Sola Scriptura “ human founded doctrine opened the way to every wind of doctrine, which is self evident in all of Protestantisms conflicted sea of private interpretations and doctrines therefrom.

The Spoken Word of God in Apostolic Tradition explains the true understanding of scripture and is handed down over 2000 years, not all the human traditions founded on human interpretations that have plagued humanity for 500 years. There seems no end to that mess of conflicted doctrine from continuing and countless erroneous private interpretations of scripture.

The Truth was the first casualty of Protestantism and human opinion was crowned supreme, trampling, and nullifying scripture by private interpretations of it.

The still small voice is the Spoken Word of God handed down from the Apostles by the Fathers.

A priest can not give you his private interpretation of scripture, his understanding of scripture is 2000 year old Apostolic Tradition.

If people are following private interpretations of scripture, they are not following Scripture.

The new “ Sola Scriptura “ doctrine is the most subtle, invisible and devious snare laid by the devil.
It gives all the impression that people are following the scripture by private human interpretations but it denies people the absolute truth of Scripture.
This has gone many generations now with countless twistings of scripture, destroying countless numbers.
Private interpretation is a killer.

 

OK ... guess I misunderstood. Sorry.

I'm still suspect of the Catholic teaching about this ... even though it's mellowed, hearing from the priest as if it's from God Himself is just a big ol setup for destruction.

 

The Still Small Voice is also The Holy Spirit direct.

I have experienced this. I know it's radical and many deny it. That's fine. I know what I heard, how I heard it, and the circumstances in which the spoken word was given.

If that's "private interpretation" ... then mark me as guilty. But I am testifying it was The Comforter giving me precisely what I needed when I needed it. I also now have a much better understanding of God's sacrifice to redeem me. Likewise, I have a much better understanding of what Hell IS. It's made me bolder in the field.

By the Blood of The Lamb and the word of my testimony ...

 

Well everyone has an interpretive Tradition of Scripture, it just depends on how old that tradition is and who started it.
How far removed is your interpretation from Luther the revolutionary “ scripture alone “ guy?
Or Calvin let’s say.

These guys were “ scripture alone “ yet quickly deviated from each other on their interpretations and many others deviated from them, coming up with new private interpretations.
All these guys were trying to recreate Christianity from their private interpretations of scripture, but founded human traditions, calling them churches. But Christ had already established His Church.

If you heard Timothy or Titus preach, were you hearing their private opinions or were you hearing the Word of God?
What they preached was Apostolic Tradition, not their opinion. They only preached what the Apostles preached to them, and what Christ preached to the Apostles.

Catholics are “ Word of God alone “ we believe God’s Word comes in two forms, Spoken and Written and we hold fast to both as Paul says to in scripture.

 

I want to avoid making this another Catholic v Protestant thread ... but the institutionalization of the Catholic church is problematic for me. Rank like its military service ... and I get the parallels to "Christian Soldiers" but what is lacking in my humble opinion ... is that you are equal to the Pope. Few Catholics I know will agree with that. There are only two grades in Christ's Army ... and only He can hold His rank. We're all the other one. Not less and not more.

Ritual services supposed to be more than symbolic reminders of different teachings. Nope.

anyhow. I appreciate your Biblical offerings but I simply can't follow the adherence to organizational structure of the Catholic church. I find it's less than Biblical.

 

I don’t want a Catholic vs Protestant thread either, these are just two view points from where we are coming from.
Friendly Dialogue then is the best course.

One question I have is about this idea of Equality, Equality how? How equal would people like to see Catholics treat the Pope.

Americans say they treat office of the President with high regard, even if the guy in office is someone they greatly dislike.
Can’t people see a parallel of the same respect for an Office

Even Caiaphas could exercise the power of his office granted by God as high priest, yet he abused Jesus to his face.

“He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation”

The High Priest was Pope to the Israelites, and God spoke infallibly through him. So God’s gift to that office was meant to be a gift to guide all Israel.

God used institutions and hierarchies all the time you can see in scripture, it’s not biblically alien in scripture as far as I see.

I read about the Church in Revelation and it has, robes, candles, incense, altars, sacred vessels, something I see as familiar in the Catholic Church.

I don’t quite understand your point? Is it the idea of rank or something more to do with authority?

 

The Apostle John wrote, ". . . These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, . . ." If salvation can be lost, then John's "that ye may know" cannot be true.

 

Well for Catholics the Eucharist is far more than symbolic I grant you.

For a Catholic the only real reason to go to Church is receive Jesus Himself in the Eucharist.

 

well, both ... rank and authority. I think the Catholic organization with what literally looks like a military structure from a 5 star Eisenhower Supreme Allied Commander ... down to a platoon commander Lieutenant. That's not the structure in Timothy. There are 3 legitimate offices and each to a congregation ... not a world wide hub of authority ... and none of those offices presume to make any of the holders greater than the Believer who isn't one of those.

Yes, God used prophets for a long time ... and the people cried out for a king, that's when we got the real lesson in fallen man. When a single man got authority. All of that was before Christ, too. Jesus changed everything, on that we agree, but Catholic structure isn't Biblical. Shoot modern day Baptist isn't Biblical, either ... just to keep it balanced.

No where I see are there directions for 67 committees. No where I see in the The Word are Roberts Rule of order to conduct membership business meetings. So Protestants are guilty of applying secular government to the church, too ... it's just not typically as formal.

that's what I hear ... and I don't understand it. One can receive Jesus anywhere. Jesus said He stands at the door of your heart and knocks. He meets you where you are. You don't have to goto a specific place at at specific time and participate in a specific pre-arranged service to receive Jesus. You CAN receive Him there, but Jesus isn't restricted by man's chronology and preparations.

 

Catholics have bishops, priests and deacons as the main structure, but these are organised to serve the people. Different roles but all equal as human beings. These are biblical.

The Eucharist is a Covenant exchange of persons and those persons must be present for the Covenant to take place.
So unless Jesus is fully present in His body, blood and divinity, we see no Covenant taking place.
“ he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood, abides in me and I in him” This is the Covenant exchange of persons. This is how a Catholic abides in the Word.

It’s not enough for us to read about Jesus in Scripture, we receive Jesus Himself and He receives us in Covenant. For us, all of Scripture leads us to the Eucharist, Jesus Himself fully present.

Mere bread and wine do not give life, only Jesus Himself.

 

Did the early Church in scripture look like democracy? Hardly. The Apostles appointed bishops of churches in many places and these had the Apostles own authority.

“ Teach and reprove with all Authority, and let no man despise you “. Titus 2:15

Problems with authority figures seems endemic in Protestantism, from my perspective it seems contribute the same if not more to divisions in Protestantism than private interpretation.
I know Protestantism began with rebellion against authority, but it never seems to end.
The communists noted this powerful catch cry of equality in the Protestant rebellion and used it very effectively up to this present day. Protestantism has been called spiritual communism where all rank must be stripped and only comrades having no rank above the other exist.

For a Catholic we see the Church as a theological monarchy with many ranks. What seems alien to us is this comradeship of Equality. The Church in scripture certainly wasn’t like that in structure.
People couldn’t just ignore the Apostles or the ones they appointed.

 

OK. sure sounds like a great effort to restrict Jesus ... but if it keeps your focus on the risen Savior you won't get an argument out of me, just don't hold your breath waiting for my participation in that.

 

Don’t you believe in Covenant with jesus?

 

of course. I just recognize I don't need a physical object to enter into that covenant relationship. I need the faith He Authored, Perfected, and gave me and I need His redemptive work which defeated death, hell, and the grave.

One day soon, I'll don the immortal and be able to be directly in His presence ... but until then ... The Helper to guide and direct my sanctification to be more like Christ while I occupy 'til He comes.

....

Normal is not returning. Jesus IS. Be ready.

 

The Eucharist is Jesus not a physical object, isn’t that whole point of Covenant?

It does take great faith to believe the Eucharist is Jesus.

Jesus told us to eat his flesh and drink his blood to have life in us.

Jesus is pure Life, bread and wine don’t have life, only Jesus does.

 

I do not believe the elements are actually the physical body of Jesus. He has donned the incorruptible in His Resurrection ... the birth of the ManChild ... with the second Coming calling home His Bride ... the Child of the ManChild.

Until WE have this same incorruptible, we cannot be in perfect presence with Him.

communion/Lord's Supper is a time to reflect and reconnect spiritually. Jesus died once ... not over and over. Resurrected Once.

Anyhow. .... creep alert is sounding.

If it keeps your focus on Jesus Christ and listening to the Still Small Voice (Holy Spirit) ... bravo.

This is a Baptist Board so ... good luck trying to convince most players here the bread/wafer & wine/juice is literally Jesus mortal body. IDK what happened to it, one day I'll know. But I'm comfortable with the symbology and opportunity to reflect/confess/get back in sync with The Spirit in that ordinance.

 

Catholics only believe it because Jesus said it. “ My flesh is real food and my blood real drink “.

Do you believe Jesus words, that his flesh is real food and blood real drink?

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day “

Make an act of faith if you are struggling with the word brother, it is a hard teaching but trust Jesus words completely and abandon human understanding.

Only those with the garment of faith can partake of the Covenant feast.