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Reconciled while enemies 2

S

savedbymercy

New Member
Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


All for whom Christ died, have been reconciled to God, by His death alone, not by their obedience, not by their faith, not by their repentance, but even while they were being enemies, unbelievers, children of wrath as others BY NATURE, now if this be the case, their being reconciled, they cannot be under condemnation and wrath as others Jn 3:18,36 even while being unbelievers !

You see, they cannot be both condemned and under wrath as enemies and reconciled to God as enemies at the same time !
 
The Biblicist

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
savedbymercy said:
Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.!
Click to expand...


SBM error here is easy to see if you just look at the immediate context this text is found in. Romans 5:1 declares the CURRENT relationship with God is “peace.” Romans 5:1-2 demands this CURRENT peace between God and the believer was established “BY FAITH”:

Rom. 5:1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

By faith we are justified; by faith we have peace and by faith we have access into this grace. The faith he is talking about is described previously in Romans 4:23-25.

In Romans 5:3-4 he asserts this relationship of “peace” established through justification by faith cannot be destroyed by CURRENT “tribulations” because the hope embraced by faith is only increased /strengthened by tribulation:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in HOPE of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, HOPE:

Justification by faith in the "hope" of the gospel is not destroyed by tribulation but only increased. Note this "hope" cycle begins in verse 2 and ends with "hope" in verse 4

The reason tribulation worketh hope in us instead of robbing us of our peace with God is due to the fact that the work of the Holy Spirit is within us overwhelms tribulations by confirming the love of God FOR US in our hearts in spite of tribulations.

Rom. 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Now he turns to demonstrate how overwhelming this love of God is for us. In verses 6-11 his basic argument is since God's love for us existed while we were yet without strength, while we were enemies, while we were sinners then MUCH MORE NOW that we "have received the atonement" (v. 11) by faith. Hence, the contrast is between BEFORE we "received the atonement" by faith versus NOW that we have "received the atonement" by faith.

6 ¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, , we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

See the "now" justified in verse 9! That is what the present tense "being reconciled" in verse 10 refers to rather than back at the cross. We are "NOW" justified because "we have NOW received the atonement" by faith.

SBM confuses Christ's LEGAL BASIS for atonement/justification/reconciliation with the "NOW received" atonement/justification/reconciliation by faith or the APPLICATION WORK by the Holy Spirit. He is talking about the CURRENT work of the Holy Spirit (v. 5) confirming the love of God in our hearts. The Holy Spirit confirms it by this contrast between BEFORE we were justified by faith and NOW being justified by faith, BEFORE by God's love demonstrated at the cross with NOW by the justifying work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
 
S

savedbymercy

New Member
You have not disproved anything I said, deal with the text instead of that long rabbit trail away from the point i made. How can the elect be reconciled to God by Christ's Death, while being enemies, and at the same time, be condemned and under God's Wrath as here Jn 3:18,36 while being enemies ?
 
The Biblicist

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
savedbymercy said:
You have not disproved anything I said, deal with the text instead of that long rabbit trail away from the point i made. How can the elect be reconciled to God by Christ's Death, while being enemies, and at the same time, be condemned and under God's Wrath as here Jn 3:18,36 while being enemies ?
Click to expand...

Stop complaining and belly aching and answer the evidence. Prove what I said is wrong!
 
The Biblicist

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
savedbymercy said:
The OP proves you wrong, which you have evaded like the spiritual coward you are !
Click to expand...

You are the one running from the evidence I placed before you. You demand everyone else answer your objections but you do not answer objections against your theories because YOU CAN'T. Instead you belly ache and make false charges.
 
The Biblicist

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Biblicist said:
SBM error here is easy to see if you just look at the immediate context this text is found in. Romans 5:1 declares the CURRENT relationship with God is “peace.” Romans 5:1-2 demands this CURRENT peace between God and the believer was established “BY FAITH”:

Rom. 5:1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

By faith we are justified; by faith we have peace and by faith we have access into this grace. The faith he is talking about is described previously in Romans 4:23-25.

In Romans 5:3-4 he asserts this relationship of “peace” established through justification by faith cannot be destroyed by CURRENT “tribulations” because the hope embraced by faith is only increased /strengthened by tribulation:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in HOPE of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, HOPE:

Justification by faith in the "hope" of the gospel is not destroyed by tribulation but only increased. Note this "hope" cycle begins in verse 2 and ends with "hope" in verse 4

The reason tribulation worketh hope in us instead of robbing us of our peace with God is due to the fact that the work of the Holy Spirit is within us overwhelms tribulations by confirming the love of God FOR US in our hearts in spite of tribulations.

Rom. 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Now he turns to demonstrate how overwhelming this love of God is for us. In verses 6-11 his basic argument is since God's love for us existed while we were yet without strength, while we were enemies, while we were sinners then MUCH MORE NOW that we "have received the atonement" (v. 11) by faith. Hence, the contrast is between BEFORE we "received the atonement" by faith versus NOW that we have "received the atonement" by faith.

6 ¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, , we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

See the "now" justified in verse 9! That is what the present tense "being reconciled" in verse 10 refers to rather than back at the cross. We are "NOW" justified because "we have NOW received the atonement" by faith.

SBM confuses Christ's LEGAL BASIS for atonement/justification/reconciliation with the "NOW received" atonement/justification/reconciliation by faith or the APPLICATION WORK by the Holy Spirit. He is talking about the CURRENT work of the Holy Spirit (v. 5) confirming the love of God in our hearts. The Holy Spirit confirms it by this contrast between BEFORE we were justified by faith and NOW being justified by faith, BEFORE by God's love demonstrated at the cross with NOW by the justifying work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
Click to expand...

That evidence above which thoroughly and contextually exposes your false doctrine. Deal with it and stop running from it.
 
S

savedbymercy

New Member
None of that says the elect were not reconciled to God while they are enemies.

So if they are reconciled to God while being enemies, how could they be of these Jn 3:18,36 who are condemned and under God's wrath while being enemies ?

You have not met that challenge yet, give it a try !
 
The Biblicist

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
savedbymercy said:
None of that says the elect were not reconciled to God while they are enemies.

So if they are reconciled to God while being enemies, how could they be of these Jn 3:18,36 who are condemned and under God's wrath while being enemies ?

You have not met that challenge yet, give it a try !
Click to expand...

Try reading what I said for a change before responding.
 
The Biblicist

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
savedbymercy said:
I have read it, and you have not met the question and point of the OP !
Click to expand...

You have not answered it! He is contrasting before and after they "received the atonement [reconciliation] (v. 11) proving the reconciliation must be RECEIVED. The cross merely provided the legal basis but it did not obtain the application of reconciliation as that was obtained by the work of the Holy Spirit through justification by faith.
 
B

billwald

New Member
If God set the example by reconciling to us while we were his enemies then should we but be reconciled to our enemies while they are still our enemies? As Jesus observed, no one gets brownie point for being nice to people who are nice to them.
 
S

savedbymercy

New Member
One of the reasons why everyone Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death only, even while they are enemies or unbelievers , is because there is no sins against God's Law imputed to them, Christ's death has paid in full for them, and God has nothing against them, even while they themselves are enemies and unbeliers.

So its impossible for unbelievers whom Christ died for, to at anytime be considered one of the unbelievers pointed out here Jn 3:18 or Jn 3:36 !

Those are only unbelievers Christ did not died for and did not reconciled to God by His Death !
 
The Biblicist

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
savedbymercy said:
One of the reasons why everyone Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death only, even while they are enemies or unbelievers , is because there is no sins against God's Law imputed to them, !
Click to expand...

You are jerking Romans 4:7-8 out of context. The imputation of righteousness as well as the non-imputation of sin is EXPLICITLY CLEARLY STATED to have happened "IN UNCICUMCISION" in verses 9-10.

You have not been able to respond to this contextual restriction of nonimputation. You have ignored it but verse 10 proves you are lying through your teeth:

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 ¶ Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
 
S

savedbymercy

New Member
The Biblicist said:
You are jerking Romans 4:7-8 out of context. The imputation of righteousness as well as the non-imputation of sin is EXPLICITLY CLEARLY STATED to have happened "IN UNCICUMCISION" in verses 9-10.

You have not been able to respond to this contextual restriction of nonimputation. You have ignored it but verse 10 proves you are lying through your teeth:

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 ¶ Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Click to expand...

One of the reasons why everyone Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death only, even while they are enemies or unbelievers , is because there is no sins against God's Law imputed to them, Christ's death has paid in full for them, and God has nothing against them, even while they themselves are enemies and unbeliers.

So its impossible for unbelievers whom Christ died for, to at anytime be considered one of the unbelievers pointed out here Jn 3:18 or Jn 3:36 !

Those are only unbelievers Christ did not died for and did not reconciled to God by His Death !
 
S

savedbymercy

New Member
The World of people who have been reconciled to God by the death of His Son, being reconciled while they are yet being enemies, the reason is because that world which Christ died for never had their trespasses imputed unto them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God views this reconciled world trespass free, a clean slate, even while they are being enemies.

So how can any one of them as enemies by nature, be under God's Wrath and condemnation like these in Jn 3:18,36 ?

No one is able to meet this challenge ! :sleep:
 
D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
savedbymercy said:
The World of people who have been reconciled to God by the death of His Son, being reconciled while they are yet being enemies, the reason is because that world which Christ died for never had their trespasses imputed unto them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God views this reconciled world trespass free, a clean slate, even while they are being enemies.

So how can any one of them as enemies by nature, be under God's Wrath and condemnation like these in Jn 3:18,36 ?

No one is able to meet this challenge !
Click to expand...
Perhaps you didn't read far enough before you went to sleep.

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Here is the command:
be ye reconciled to God.

Here is the reason:
he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;
that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

We gain a righteous standing before God because God made Christ to be sin for us. IOW Christ took our place on the cross and paid the penalty that we, now, don't have to pay--that whosoever believes on him shall have everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation.

The payment must be received as a gift.
The reconciliation is a command that must be done.
Either way, man must accept the gift by faith and be reconciled to God.
 
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