Reformed Brethren

[preacher4truth]

Please describe how the responsibility of man works within the framework of Scripture concerning election &c.

Thanks.

 

[DaChaser1]

Please describe how the responsibility of man works within the framework of Scripture concerning election &c.

Thanks.

Do reformed Baptist cals see this different than non reformed baptist cals?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Please describe how the responsibility of man works within the framework of Scripture concerning election &c.

Thanks.

Certainly. 'The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe the Gospel!' (Mark 1:15). 'But now God commands all men everywhere to repent' (Acts 17:30).

To repent and believe the Gospel is a command to all men in all countries. All men are therefore responsible to obey that command. All those who obey will be saved (John 6:37b).

Unfortunately, due to the culpable wickedness of their hearts, men will not obey. 'And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men preferred darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19. See also Rom 3:10ff).

However, God in His boundless mercy and grace has elected a vast crowd of people from all mankind, a crowd so great that no man can number it, and has drawn these folk irresistibly to Christ.

Steve

 

[preacher4truth]

Certainly. 'The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe the Gospel!' (Mark 1:15). 'But now God commands all men everywhere to repent' (Acts 17:30).

To repent and believe the Gospel is a command to all men in all countries. All men are therefore responsible to obey that command. All those who obey will be saved (John 6:37b).

Unfortunately, due to the culpable wickedness of their hearts, men will not obey. 'And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men preferred darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19. See also Rom 3:10ff).

However, God in His boundless mercy and grace has elected a vast crowd of people from all mankind, a crowd so great that no man can number it, and has drawn these folk irresistibly to Christ.

Steve

Hey Steve, thanks for your input.

Now, when a non-cal or arminian argues "How can God hold man responsible if He hasn't elected them?", how do you address them? The same? Differently?

They place blame upon God within our theology, and declare by implication this isn't fair, and that "since God hadn't chosen them, then how can He hold them responsible?!" This is one of their "biggies" according to them.

- Peace

 

[DaChaser1]

Hey Steve, thanks for your input.

Now, when a non-cal or arminian argues "How can God hold man responsible if He hasn't elected them?", how do you address them? The same? Differently?

They place blame upon God within our theology, and declare by implication this isn't fair, and that "since God hadn't chosen them, then how can He hold them responsible?!" This is one of their "biggies" according to them.

- Peace

especially since many of them have God directly blinding sinners/hardening them off, so to them God indeed is to blame!

He cannot have a true and real oofer made to sinners, as God to them has made it so they cannot come to God, He choose to shut them out !

 

[preacher4truth]

especially since many of them have God directly blinding sinners/hardening them off, so to them God indeed is to blame!

He cannot have a true and real oofer made to sinners, as God to them has made it so they cannot come to God, He choose to shut them out !

The god of this world has blinded them, that is, all who don't see the Gospel, yet they believe by "choosing" they are set free.

That's 100% false doctrine.

It is all God, and 0% man. It is God who frees those who are in bondage, not man who does so by "choice" and no mans will is free outside of Christ, John 8.

Arminian and non-cal theology has lent itself to much false teaching in the church, has exalted man to a little god, and has made faith some power source within man. Now we have WOF, Prosperity Gospel, toxic faith Christians and a slough of other false teachings to deal with stemming from their errant theology.

No wonder these attack "Calvinists." That's the last forefront for them to bring their belligerency, those reformed brethren who give God all glory, recognizing He does all the saving.

- Peace

 

[DaChaser1]

The god of this world has blinded them, that is, all who don't see the Gospel, yet they believe by "choosing" they are set free.

That's 100% false doctrine.

It is all God, and 0% man. It is God who frees those who are in bondage, not man who does so by "choice" and no mans will is free outside of Christ, John 8.

Arminian and non-cal theology has lent itself to much false teaching in the church, has exalted man to a little god, and has made faith some power source within man. Now we have WOF, Prosperity Gospel, toxic faith Christians and a slough of other false teachings to deal with stemming from their errant theology.

No wonder these attack "Calvinists." That's the last forefront for them to bring their belligerency, those reformed brethren who give God all glory, recognizing He does all the saving.

- Peace

hey, not just the 'reformed", we Dispy belivers in DoG try to stand firm also!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hey Steve, thanks for your input.

Now, when a non-cal or arminian argues "How can God hold man responsible if He hasn't elected them?", how do you address them? The same? Differently?

Romans 9:21 seems to answer the objection adequately.

They place blame upon God within our theology, and declare by implication this isn't fair, and that "since God hadn't chosen them, then how can He hold them responsible?!" This is one of their "biggies" according to them.

- Peace

Have these people been up to heaven and had a look at the Book of Life to see who's elect and who isn't? Let's stop the arguments and bid men come to Christ. If folk will come to Him, He will certainly not turn them away (John 6:37b), but the ones who do come will find that they were chosen by the Father and given to the Son in eternity past that He should redeem them (John 6:37a; Eph 1:4-6). The rest will not come because of the hardness of their hearts.

Steve

 

[preacher4truth]

hey, not just the 'reformed", we Dispy belivers in DoG try to stand firm also!

I said nothing of eschatology! Let's not go there! :thumbsup:

 

[preacher4truth]

Romans 9:21 seems to answer the objection adequately.

Have these people been up to heaven and had a look at the Book of Life to see who's elect and who isn't? Let's stop the arguments and bid men come to Christ. If folk will come to Him, He will certainly not turn them away (John 6:37b), but the ones who do come will find that they were chosen by the Father and given to the Son in eternity past that He should redeem them (John 6:37a; Eph 1:4-6). The rest will not come because of the hardness of their hearts.

Steve

Then they are consumed and obsessed with those who are lost, and what is to them fair, instead of the Glory of God in electing those unworthy sinners who glorify Him, which would include each and every one of us.

God is righteous and just in His dealings with man, and in His choosing to show mercy to whom He wills to do so. Any who feel He is unjust and unfair in His Sovereignty to choose to show mercy on whom He wills needs to take it up with Him.

- Peace

 

[Iconoclast]

Please describe how the responsibility of man works within the framework of Scripture concerning election &c.

Thanks.

Man is created an image bearer of God...good,but untested.
Man is revealed early on to be Fallen in Adam.
Man although seperated from God is still reponsible to God;

The entrance of sin into the human race came through Adam’s willful disobedience to the explicit commandment of God (Gen. 2:16–17; 3:1–7; Rom. 5:12; 3:23).8 The human race apostatized from God in Adam as their representative head.In dealing with the origin of sin, however, we must come to terms, not only with its history as revealed in Scripture, but also with its relation to an absolutely just or righteous and holy God. Holding the Scriptures to be the inspired, infallible Word of God inscripturated, we must accept their record as to the origin of sin.[/QUOTE]

If God did not have a redemptive plan in place....all created beings would perish.All mankind having fallen was condemned.

8 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event, i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity, but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…” Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity.[/QUOTE]

1. The Scriptures hold men fully responsible for their own sins, which would not and could not be true if God were the author of sin (Acts 2:23; Rom. 1:18–32; 2 Thess. 1:7–9; Jude 14–15; Rev. 20:11–13).
2. If God were to charge men with sins for which he were really responsible, then he would not and could not be just, indeed, he would be less than just—he himself would become a criminal, a sinner! Such would be absolutely unthinkable and unscriptural. Thus, the biblical reality of human culpability would necessarily preclude God from being the author of sin.

[QUOTEThe Dutch Theologian Herman Bavinck seeks to explain this truth by an illustration:
Because man is a rational, moral being, God does not treat him as if he were a stone or a log but deals with him and addresses him in accordance with his nature. Just as a father forbids his child to touch a sharp knife though he himself uses it without injury or damage, so God forbids us to sin though He himself is able to use and does use sin as a means of self–glorification.17
• God ordains sin, but he does not command it. Sin exists as part of the Divine teleological purpose, but it is not forced upon men by necessity. Men cannot make God culpable for their own sin and breach of God’s preceptive will. They must, as moral, rational, responsible beings, bear the consequences of their own transgressions. God thus controls evil, but not in the sense that he rejoices or takes pleasure in it. To say that God does not control evil is to deny his omnipotence. To say that he wills evil in the same sense as he does what is right and holy is to deny his righteousness and holiness. To say that he controls evil in such a way that men are relieved of their moral responsibility is to deny both their free moral agency and his essential nature. To say, however, that God ordains men to contradict his Law–Word through their own willful actions, and that he controls this for the ultimate good and glory of his eternal purpose, is to assert the absolute sovereignty of God over evil and yet preserve his wisdom, righteousness and holiness. Finite creatures must leave such mystery to the infinite God.]

These quotes are from the problem of evil

Election is part of the planned remedy;
Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

 

[preacher4truth]

Thanks Iconoclast. I'm certain the answers provided will not suffice the arms and the non-cals. It all boils down to the ad nauseum mind set that they hold being that this is unfair.

This concept is seen throughout much of their theology, that it brings Sovereignty into question, reducing it while bringing man up. Some of the Omnis also come into question, especially Omniscience and Omnisapience. But this is a natural result of their errant thinking, so it also effects their theological points, bringing their theology to a place where the God within it is fair, and fits into their reason and logic.

Concerning those who are eternally lost, I wonder, are there any while on this side who desired salvation, or were all of these content to remain lost in their enslavement to sin and enjoy the pleasures of darkness forever. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, I wonder, would this be at envy and jealousy of the chosen.

- Peace

 

[DaChaser1]

Then they are consumed and obsessed with those who are lost, and what is to them fair, instead of the Glory of God in electing those unworthy sinners who glorify Him, which would include each and every one of us.

God is righteous and just in His dealings with man, and in His choosing to show mercy to whom He wills to do so. Any who feel He is unjust and unfair in His Sovereignty to choose to show mercy on whom He wills needs to take it up with Him.

- Peace

just musing here...

Do you think satan might have found it 'Not fair' that he could not share the glory with God, "not fair" that God will was supreme, and that he could not always get what he wanted?

 

[Skandelon]

"God would be just to condemn us all to hell." Or as one Calvinist put it, "The wonder of God's mercy and grace is NOT that He doesn't save everyone; it is that He even saves ANYONE!"

This is the very essence of what I believe, even as a non-Calvinist. God is not in any way morally obligated to save anyone because we deserve it. Again, this is a point upon which we can all agree.

However, God has obligated Himself, both morally and judicially, to save whosoever will come (believe). Not because they deserve it, but because He sent forth His Son to be a propitiation for sins of whole world, which is to be applied only through faith. His universal call to "every creature" to faith and repentance obligates him to save whosoever repents and believes (we, non-Cals, don't put that obligation on him, He puts it on Himself).

The doctrine that teaches that God only grants this ability to willingly repent and believe to a select few while appearing to call "every creature" is what causes the non-Calvinists to cry, "Foul!"

We don't believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because he condemns certain people to hell. We believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because He offers a pardon to all mankind while only granted a few of them the ability to receive it, all the while expressing a desire for all to come to repentance and a frustration for those who remain unwilling. This makes God appear disingenuous, at best.

It is deceptive to offer someone a gift you fully know they cannot willingly receive. Especially if you, the giver, are the one who determines the receivers natural abilities to accept or reject the appeal. That type of appeal cannot be anymore genuine than if you were to call out to deaf man who is walking away from you knowing full well he is deaf.

 

[quantumfaith]

"God would be just to condemn us all to hell." Or as one Calvinist put it, "The wonder of God's mercy and grace is NOT that He doesn't save everyone; it is that He even saves ANYONE!"

This is the very essence of what I believe, even as a non-Calvinist. God is not in any way morally obligated to save anyone because we deserve it. Again, this is a point upon which we can all agree.

However, God has obligated Himself, both morally and judicially, to save whosoever will come (believe). Not because they deserve it, but because He sent forth His Son to be a propitiation for sins of whole world, which is to be applied only through faith. His universal call to "every creature" to faith and repentance obligates him to save whosoever repents and believes (we, non-Cals, don't put that obligation on him, He puts it on Himself).

The doctrine that teaches that God only grants this ability to willingly repent and believe to a select few while appearing to call "every creature" is what causes the non-Calvinists to cry, "Foul!"

We don't believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because he condemns certain people to hell. We believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because He offers a pardon to all mankind while only granted a few of them the ability to receive it, all the while expressing a desire for all to come to repentance and a frustration for those who remain unwilling. This makes God appear disingenuous, at best.

It is deceptive to offer someone a gift you fully know they cannot willingly receive. Especially if you, the giver, are the one who determines the receivers natural abilities to accept or reject the appeal. That type of appeal cannot be anymore genuine than if you were to call out to deaf man who is walking away from you knowing full well he is deaf.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Thus then, would it be correct to say that only the reformed who hold to both unconditional election and reprobation are the only truly consistent ones in that framework?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

"God would be just to condemn us all to hell." Or as one Calvinist put it, "The wonder of God's mercy and grace is NOT that He doesn't save everyone; it is that He even saves ANYONE!"

This is the very essence of what I believe, even as a non-Calvinist. God is not in any way morally obligated to save anyone because we deserve it. Again, this is a point upon which we can all agree.

However, God has obligated Himself, both morally and judicially, to save whosoever will come (believe). Not because they deserve it, but because He sent forth His Son to be a propitiation for sins of whole world, which is to be applied only through faith. His universal call to "every creature" to faith and repentance obligates him to save whosoever repents and believes (we, non-Cals, don't put that obligation on him, He puts it on Himself).

The doctrine that teaches that God only grants this ability to willingly repent and believe to a select few while appearing to call "every creature" is what causes the non-Calvinists to cry, "Foul!"

We don't believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because he condemns certain people to hell. We believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because He offers a pardon to all mankind while only granted a few of them the ability to receive it, all the while expressing a desire for all to come to repentance and a frustration for those who remain unwilling. This makes God appear disingenuous, at best.

It is deceptive to offer someone a gift you fully know they cannot willingly receive. Especially if you, the giver, are the one who determines the receivers natural abilities to accept or reject the appeal. That type of appeal cannot be anymore genuine than if you were to call out to deaf man who is walking away from you knowing full well he is deaf.

Well, firstly you lay yourself open to Paul's rebuke in Romans 9:20-21.

Secondly, you seem to have a scenario of people desperately trying to believe and God actively preventing them. This is a travesty. Men actually prefer darkness to light (John 3:19). "But youwill not come to Me that you may have life" (John 5:40).

Thirdly, you need to consider Acts 2:23. "[Christ] being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified and put to death." Note that it was not just 'foreknown' by God that our Lord would be put to death by the Jews; it was 'determinedly purposed' by Him. Despite that, God nonetheless holds them responsible. It was their 'lawless' or 'wicked' (NIV) hands that crucified our Saviour. In just the same way, although God does not elect all men to salvation, all men are nonetheless responsible for their sin and also to come to Christ to be saved. If you don't like that, your argument is with God.

Steve

 

[OldRegular]

I said nothing of eschatology! Let's not go there! :thumbsup:

Dispensationalism is not just eschatology, though some people think it is. Their eschatology is bad. Their doctrine of the purpose of the incarnation is terrible!

 

[OldRegular]

However, God has obligated Himself, both morally and judicially, to save whosoever will come (believe). Not because they deserve it, but because He sent forth His Son to be a propitiation for sins of whole world, which is to be applied only through faith. His universal call to "every creature" to faith and repentance obligates him to save whosoever repents and believes (we, non-Cals, don't put that obligation on him, He puts it on Himself).

God will save whosoever will.

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Surely our Lord and Savior was not mistaken when he said:

John 5:40
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

The doctrine that teaches that God only grants this ability to willingly repent and believe to a select few while appearing to call "every creature" is what causes the non-Calvinists to cry, "Foul!"

We don't believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because he condemns certain people to hell. We believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because He offers a pardon to all mankind while only granted a few of them the ability to receive it, all the while expressing a desire for all to come to repentance and a frustration for those who remain unwilling. This makes God appear disingenuous, at best.

It is deceptive to offer someone a gift you fully know they cannot willingly receive. Especially if you, the giver, are the one who determines the receivers natural abilities to accept or reject the appeal. That type of appeal cannot be anymore genuine than if you were to call out to deaf man who is walking away from you knowing full well he is deaf.

Perhaps the Apostle Paul should have listened to you, Skandelon, instead of God!

Romans 9:18-31
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

 

[convicted1]

Boy, every time I put a quarter in this "jukebox", it keeps playing the some ole song.....j/k Brethern....hoping to diffuse this a tad.....:laugh:

 

[Skandelon]

God will save whosoever will.

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Amen!

Surely our Lord and Savior was not mistaken when he said:

John 5:40
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees whose hearts have grown calloused (Read Acts 28:23-28).

Read the context: "39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

They are REFUSING to come to him, by choice. But also notice the order Christ puts this in.

"...come to me to have life..."

The "coming" is before the "life," yet Calvinists teach the opposite. Maybe Jesus should have said, "yet you don't have life so you refuse to come to me."

Perhaps the Apostle Paul should have listened to you, Skandelon, instead of God!

Romans 9:18-31
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

I've gone over the correct interpretation of this chapter numerous times so I'll simple defer you there...