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Regarding Sharp Rule

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Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Surprisingly, the 1611 edition of the KJV has a comma after God at 2 Peter 1:1 [God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ], and that comma seems to have remained in most KJV editions printed up to the 1769 Oxford edition. The 1743 Cambridge and 1760 Cambridge editions had actually removed it before the 1769. Even the first KJV edition printed in America in 1782 and KJV editions printed at Oxford in 1788 and in 1795 still have a comma after God at 2 Peter 1:1. How does this comma in most KJV editions up to the 1769 Oxford affect the understanding and interpretation of this verse? Concerning this verse in his 1633 commentary on 2 Peter, Thomas Adams observed: “Some read these words by disjoining them; of God, and of our Saviour,“ which would seem to refer to the rendering in the 1611 KJV.

At its note for 2 Peter 1:1, the Reformation Heritage KJV Study Bible noted: “Literally, ‘our God and Savior, Jesus Christ,‘ describing one divine person--the same Greek phrase appears in v. 11, but with ‘Lord” in place of ‘God.‘ Christ is Lord and God (John 1:1; 20:28; Rom. 9:5)“ (p. 1829). James Scholefield maintained that this verse has “the same construction as in verse 11” where it was rendered in the KJV as “of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” (Hints, p. 157). A. T. Robertson wrote: “In 2 Peter 1:11 and 3:18, the pronoun ’our’ comes after ’Lord,’ but that makes no difference in the idiom. It is ’our Lord and Saviour,’ and it is so translated in the English versions. But we have precisely the same idiom in 2 Peter 1:1, ’our God and Saviour Jesus Christ’” (The Minister, p. 63). Robertson asserted: “The idiom compels the translation, ’our God and Saviour Jesus Christ” (p. 64). Concerning 2 Peter 1:1, Ralph Wardlaw noted in 1815: “An instance of construction, in every respect the same, occurs at the eleventh verse of this same chapter” (Discourses, p. 75). Wardlaw asserted: “It is just as improper to render the words in the first verse, ‘through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,‘ (unless the appellations ‘God and our Saviour’ be understood as both connecting with ‘Jesus Christ’) as it would be to render those in this verse [1:11] ‘in the kingdom of the Lord and our Saviour Jesus Christ’” (p. 76). Do KJV-only advocates oppose the same measures and principles being applied to 2 Peter 1:1 as would be applied to 2 Peter 1:11?

Several pre-1611 English Bibles and many post-1611 English Bibles clearly, precisely, and accurately identify Jesus Christ as "our God and Saviour" at 2 Peter 1:1. William Tyndale in 1534, Miles Coverdale in 1535, and John Rogers in 1537 translated the last part of this verse as "righteousness that cometh of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ." In his 1538 Latin-English New Testament, Miles Coverdale rendered it “righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ.” The 1539 Great Bible, 1557 Whittingham's New Testament, 1560 Geneva Bible, 1568 Bishops' Bible, 1576 Tomson’s New Testament, 1657 Haak’s English translation of the Dutch Bible, 1755 Wesley's New Testament, 1842 Baptist or Bernard's, 1862 Young’s Literal Translation, 1866 American Bible Union Version, 1982 NKJV, 1994 Majority Text Interlinear, and other English translations render it "righteousness of our God and Saviour [or Savior] Jesus Christ." Thomas Goodwin maintained that “[Theodore] Beza reads it, ‘our God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,’” and that “it clearly meant one person, viz. Christ” (Works, VIII, p. 283).


At 2 Peter 1:1, the 2005 Cambridge edition of the KJV has this note taken from the standard 1762 Cambridge edition: “Gr. of our God and Saviour.” KJV editions printed at Oxford in 1810, 1821, 1835, 1857, 1865, 1868, and 1885, and at Cambridge in 1769, 1844, 1872, and 1887 also have this same note indicating the accurate translation and meaning of the Greek. An earlier KJV edition printed in London in 1711 had the same note and a cross reference to Titus 2:13.
Concerning 2 Peter 1:1 in the Westminster Annotations printed in 1645, this note was also given: “Gr. Of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ.” Thus, the Bible scholars at the Westminster Assembly agreed with the pre-1611 English Bible translators and the editors of some standard KJV editions.
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Granville Sharp’s Canon and Its Kin:
Semantics and Significance,

"Wallace identifies the eight Christologically significant texts for Sharp: Acts 20:28; Eph 5:5; 2 Thess 1:12; 1 Tim 5:21; 2 Tim 4:1;
Titus 2:13; 2 Pet 1:1; and Jude 4 (pp. 233–34). Wallace questions four of them (Acts 20:28; 1 Tim 5:21; 2 Tim 4:1; Jude 4) because Sharp relies on doubtful textual variants." [Quote from an online rebuttal] He also questions Eph 5:5 and 2 Thess 1:12 because the author (Paul) may have used "Christ" as a proper name).

That leaves Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 as teaching Jesus is God.

Titus 2:13 KJV
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Titus 2:13 NET
as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

2Peter 1:1 KJV
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2Peter 1:1 NET
From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours.

Some of people objecting to correcting the KJV are simply KJV onlyists. Their objections are without merit.
 
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J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Logos1560 said:
Surprisingly, the 1611 edition of the KJV has a comma after God at 2 Peter 1:1 [God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ], and that comma seems to have remained in most KJV editions printed up to the 1769 Oxford edition. The 1743 Cambridge and 1760 Cambridge editions had actually removed it before the 1769. Even the first KJV edition printed in America in 1782 and KJV editions printed at Oxford in 1788 and in 1795 still have a comma after God at 2 Peter 1:1. How does this comma in most KJV editions up to the 1769 Oxford affect the understanding and interpretation of this verse? Concerning this verse in his 1633 commentary on 2 Peter, Thomas Adams observed: “Some read these words by disjoining them; of God, and of our Saviour,“ which would seem to refer to the rendering in the 1611 KJV.

At its note for 2 Peter 1:1, the Reformation Heritage KJV Study Bible noted: “Literally, ‘our God and Savior, Jesus Christ,‘ describing one divine person--the same Greek phrase appears in v. 11, but with ‘Lord” in place of ‘God.‘ Christ is Lord and God (John 1:1; 20:28; Rom. 9:5)“ (p. 1829). James Scholefield maintained that this verse has “the same construction as in verse 11” where it was rendered in the KJV as “of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” (Hints, p. 157). A. T. Robertson wrote: “In 2 Peter 1:11 and 3:18, the pronoun ’our’ comes after ’Lord,’ but that makes no difference in the idiom. It is ’our Lord and Saviour,’ and it is so translated in the English versions. But we have precisely the same idiom in 2 Peter 1:1, ’our God and Saviour Jesus Christ’” (The Minister, p. 63). Robertson asserted: “The idiom compels the translation, ’our God and Saviour Jesus Christ” (p. 64). Concerning 2 Peter 1:1, Ralph Wardlaw noted in 1815: “An instance of construction, in every respect the same, occurs at the eleventh verse of this same chapter” (Discourses, p. 75). Wardlaw asserted: “It is just as improper to render the words in the first verse, ‘through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,‘ (unless the appellations ‘God and our Saviour’ be understood as both connecting with ‘Jesus Christ’) as it would be to render those in this verse [1:11] ‘in the kingdom of the Lord and our Saviour Jesus Christ’” (p. 76). Do KJV-only advocates oppose the same measures and principles being applied to 2 Peter 1:1 as would be applied to 2 Peter 1:11?

Several pre-1611 English Bibles and many post-1611 English Bibles clearly, precisely, and accurately identify Jesus Christ as "our God and Saviour" at 2 Peter 1:1. William Tyndale in 1534, Miles Coverdale in 1535, and John Rogers in 1537 translated the last part of this verse as "righteousness that cometh of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ." In his 1538 Latin-English New Testament, Miles Coverdale rendered it “righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ.” The 1539 Great Bible, 1557 Whittingham's New Testament, 1560 Geneva Bible, 1568 Bishops' Bible, 1576 Tomson’s New Testament, 1657 Haak’s English translation of the Dutch Bible, 1755 Wesley's New Testament, 1842 Baptist or Bernard's, 1862 Young’s Literal Translation, 1866 American Bible Union Version, 1982 NKJV, 1994 Majority Text Interlinear, and other English translations render it "righteousness of our God and Saviour [or Savior] Jesus Christ." Thomas Goodwin maintained that “[Theodore] Beza reads it, ‘our God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,’” and that “it clearly meant one person, viz. Christ” (Works, VIII, p. 283).


At 2 Peter 1:1, the 2005 Cambridge edition of the KJV has this note taken from the standard 1762 Cambridge edition: “Gr. of our God and Saviour.” KJV editions printed at Oxford in 1810, 1821, 1835, 1857, 1865, 1868, and 1885, and at Cambridge in 1769, 1844, 1872, and 1887 also have this same note indicating the accurate translation and meaning of the Greek. An earlier KJV edition printed in London in 1711 had the same note and a cross reference to Titus 2:13.
Concerning 2 Peter 1:1 in the Westminster Annotations printed in 1645, this note was also given: “Gr. Of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ.” Thus, the Bible scholars at the Westminster Assembly agreed with the pre-1611 English Bible translators and the editors of some standard KJV editions.
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This undercuts the commonly made retort by KJVO that Modern versions all pervert and deny deity of Christ, yet the Nas/esv/nkjv, regardless if based upon either Mt/CT all support the deity of Jesus morer so then even the Kjv itself
 
Saved421

Saved421

Member
Dear community,

I would like to note when I say new versions attack the deity is not saying it dosen't support the deity in places. What I am saying is that there are places its lowered and changed.

Beza was well aware that the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ was the same person.

The English grammar sense in the verses in the A.V. clearly shew the Sharp Rule.

Its literally saying the same thing, Jesus is the great God and our Saviour.

There is no issue at all, and yes, modern versions say the same thing in these verses.
 
L

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Saved421 said:
The English grammar sense in the verses in the A.V. clearly shew the Sharp Rule.
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You ignore the fact that the 1611 edition and other 1600's editions of the KJV had a comma after God at 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13.

The 1611 edition of the KJV has a comma after God at 2 Peter 1:1 [God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ], and that comma seems to have remained in most KJV editions printed up to the 1769 Oxford edition. The 1743 Cambridge and 1760 Cambridge editions had actually removed it before the 1769. Even the first KJV edition printed in America in 1782 and KJV editions printed at Oxford in 1788 and in 1795 still have a comma after God at 2 Peter 1:1. How does this comma in most KJV editions up to the 1769 Oxford affect the English grammar understanding and interpretation of this verse? Concerning this verse in his 1633 commentary on 2 Peter, Thomas Adams observed: “Some read these words by disjoining them; of God, and of our Saviour,“ which would seem to refer to the rendering in the 1611.

The 1611 edition of the KJV had a comma after God at Titus 2:13 [the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ]. The first KJV edition printed in America in 1782 and KJV editions printed at Oxford in 1788 and 1795 still have a comma after God at Titus 2:13. Scrivener observed: “In regard to weightier matters, the comma put by 1611 after “God” in Titus 2:13 is fitly removed by 1769 modern, that ‘the great God and our Saviour’ may be seen to be joint predicates of the same Divine person” (Authorized Edition, p. 87).
 
Saved421

Saved421

Member
Peradventure it was a misprint, or that's how grammar worked in 1611.

Every title/jot puntucation mark matters.
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Acts of the Apostles 20:28 KJV
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

The Greek reads "with His own blood, but if the Greek Genitive is taken as "possessive" then "with the blood His own Son" is indicated.

Many, perhaps most believe this verse supports that "his" refers to "God" and therefore the one who shed His blood (Jesus) is referred to as God.
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
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Acts of the Apostles 20:21 KJV
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

I suppose a translation with a Christology agenda might be rendered "...resplendence and faith into our God and Lord, Jesus Christ.

We might file this observation under the doctrine of "if you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything."
 
Saved421

Saved421

Member
Dear fourm readers,

The King James Bible hath no translational errors, its either a misprint or unaware of differences in the English language.

Shawn
 
Saved421

Saved421

Member
Yes, those verses are stating Jesus is God.

Note: I do believe new versions do still have the deity in places.

As well, 1 John 3:16 saith:

Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
 
Saved421

Saved421

Member
Van said:
Acts of the Apostles 20:21 KJV
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

I suppose a translation with a Christology agenda might be rendered "...resplendence and faith into our God and Lord, Jesus Christ.

We might file this observation under the doctrine of "if you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything."
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Dear Van,

I would like to note, the KJB is highly written according to academic studies the same way the origonals were written.

Second, the word 'and' isn't always referring to another person or object.

Shawn
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
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Saved421 said:
Dear Van,

I would like to note, the KJB is highly written according to academic studies the same way the origonals were written.

Second, the word 'and' isn't always referring to another person or object.

Shawn
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Not sure of your point, as I quoted Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 where "and" refers to the same person in two different ways. Just because the KJV is "highly written" does not suggest in the slightest it is perfect and could not be improved, such as in the verses cited. If you are a KJV only advocate, there is little chance I could alter your view.
 
L

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Saved421 said:
I would like to note, the KJB is highly written according to academic studies the same way the origonals were written.
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The originals were given and written by a miracle of inspiration of God while the KJV was not made by any direct miracle of inspiration.


According to what the KJV itself teaches, the term inspiration would concern the giving of all Scripture to the prophets and apostles, not any post-NT process of translating.
 
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