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Regeneration and Faith

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Bob Krajcik, Jun 26, 2005.

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  1. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    If you disagree with what I have said in this post, what reason do you have?

    The ones that are the subjects of salvation are the elect (Eph 1:4). If election depends upon foreseen faith, God does not first choose man but man first chooses God. John 15:16 is another verse of Scripture to be ignored and explained away for the satisfaction of the opponents. Faith is the gift of God to man as Ephesians 2:8 clearly shows, therefore faith is not the gift of man to God.

    Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Not of works, lest any man should boast, yet some men speak of there own faith, nothing to do with God for they claim to have been first disposed to God and just needed some persuasion. Never mind that faith is a work, for some don’t like it to be that way. Yet what does John 6:29 say but that faith is a work. It is clear enough, it is the work of God yet some will not accept that for they don’t like it to be that way. Those opponents of free grace apart from works also need to explain away 1 Thessalonians 1:3 and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. The Scripture teaches that faith is a work, but the opponents claim it is not a work. After all they have liked it to be their work for years now and they know enough to admit salvation is by grace alone and not of works, so they have explained away that it is a work, and others have followed along in their churches. Yet, the Bible still says faith is a work.

    John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

    2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

    The above excerpted from:
    http://www.bright.net/~bkrajcik/regenerationandfaith.htm

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio

    [​IMG]
     
    #1 Bob Krajcik, Jun 26, 2005
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    --Faith is the gift of God to man as Ephesians 2:8 clearly shows, therefore faith is not the gift of man to God.--

    Wrong. God sending His Son to die a horrible death to make atonement for me, you, and the sins of the WHOLE WORLD (not just Rome) IS the gift of God that Ephesians 2 is speaking of!!
     
    #2 webdog, Jun 26, 2005
  3. here now

    here now Member

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    You're saying that Grace alone is the FREE gift. It can't be FREE if one must buy it with Faith.
    It's a package deal.
    Neither is of oneself.
    They are both gifts from God.
     
    #3 here now, Jun 26, 2005
  4. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Krajcik, why do you dig up this FALSE Junk?

    Each of your posted scriptures is taken out of its Context and given meanings that are not present IN CONTEXT!

    For example
    Jesus is speaking TO HIS APOSTLES from John 13:1 through 17:26...And it is important that you understand that! Judas left the scene in John 13:30 "As soon as Judas had taken the piece of bread he went out. It was night."

    Jesus Chose the 12, and Now Jesus Ordains the 11 to go and bring forth fruit.

    Ephesians 2:8,9 is Also grossly misinterpreted! SALVATION is the FREE GIFT OF GOD every where else in the New Testament, but here, you want make Paul say that Grace is the free Gift. Pure foolishness!

    Ephesians 1:3-14 Paul is explaining to the Ephesians God's plan of Salvation. Verse 4 Paul is telling the role of the Apostles! Any other interpretation is of the devil!

    John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. anyone who can read, will tell you that Jesus is telling his listeners, that the work of the FATHER is that we believe in the one He sent. Our faith in Jesus is the FATHER's work, NOT man's. Notice I said our faith is the father's work, not that our faith is a gift from the Father.

    Neither of the Thessalonian scriptures support Calvinism either, and only a foolish person would believe they do.
     
    #4 Wes Outwest, Jun 27, 2005
  5. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    Wes,

    Your forced neutrality will give you common ground with some men, but with that the Bible is made to be neutral, with no sure word. The skeptic and believer can come together if neutrality is the foundation, but that is not the foundation a believer is on, for the believer is on rock and not sand.

    You insist all is by man’s choice, no special intervention of God, and nothing is sure with your system of different experiences and neutrality of interpretation, but the Bible does not support what you say.

    You take a verse that is clear and force it to be obscure, neutral, but if you like it or not, the text does not change. The verse still says what it says. The context supports what the verse says if you like it or not.

    You have considerable difficulty with choice, be it man’s part or God’s. The Bible does address choice, but not with the neutrality as you force. The Bible speaks of man and his choice apart from the intervention of God, and says, Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. The other side is God and His choice: Blessed is ... the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance. Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

    Deal with the sure text of the Scriptures for they do not change, and put aside obscurity and neutrality, for they are only shifting sand. Put aside evidential neutrality.

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio
    June 27, 2005
     
    #5 Bob Krajcik, Jun 27, 2005
  6. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Pure foolishness, Quote my post where I have said, even once in the several years I've been posting here, that man does it by himself! I never have and I never will, because I know the reality. What I have posted here is that truth is relative. If you do not know what relationships is all about, then you will not understand what I post!

    Why do you suppose that the auto industry produces so many varieties of automobile? It is because we do not all have the same truth in cars. Your truth may be Cadillac, mine the Gogomobile! Your truth may be supported by wealth while mine is supported by poverty! Both have need of transport, but because of our different truths you go in style while I get there in a sardine can.

    The bible most definitely supports what I say, just look at the diversity of gives given. To some it is this, to other it is that, to still others it is something else! The bible speaks of the poor, the rich, and all the in-betweens. It speaks of the sick, the lame, and the responsibility of the healthy to render aid. It speaks of those who possess knowledge and those who do not! If you cannot see all that then it is you with the problem and not I!

    Truth is relative! Don't you forget it!
     
    #6 Wes Outwest, Jun 27, 2005
  7. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Again, Pure foolishness on your part.

    You take a verse of scripture and make it a stand alone doctrine when in its CONTEXT, is says something quite different that what you want it to say. You are fraudulently usurping God's clear message by doing so! STOP IT!
     
    #7 Wes Outwest, Jun 27, 2005
  8. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Bob,
    You simply do not have a clue! Get a life and get out of Calvinism!
     
    #8 Wes Outwest, Jun 27, 2005
  9. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    Well, Wes, I know it must seem like a fine idea to you. Myself, you not liking it is not valid reason for me to put aside the Bible.

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
     
    #9 Bob Krajcik, Jun 27, 2005
  10. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Well, Wes, I know it must seem like a fine idea to you. Myself, you not liking it is not valid reason for me to put aside the Bible.

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik     </font>[/QUOTE]Who said anything about putting aside the Bible? I said nothing about the bible, only about its MISUSE! Calvinism MISUSES the bible, and that is why you should get out of Calvinism!
     
    #10 Wes Outwest, Jun 27, 2005
  11. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    Wes,

    You have failed to show how any verse was misused. Scripture is what I intend to deal with. If you would deal with the Scriptures and stop with the straw men there might be some progress. You do not seem to comprehend that. As it is, various words are used such as election, atonement, regeneration, conversion, justification, righteousness etc and when you use them or refer to them in the posts of others the definition you use is different than many others posting on this forum. You argue using a different language than others posting here.

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio
     
    #11 Bob Krajcik, Jun 27, 2005
  12. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Where have you been Bob? A classic example of the abuse of scripture is Ephesians 2:8,9. Yes it is difficult, but if you know and understand grace, faith, and what the gift of God to mankind is, then you cannot interpret it as saying that Grace is the gift of God, or that Faith is the gift of God, You must conclude that "being saved" is the gift of God that Paul is expaining to the Ephesians.

    Another is John 6:29. Having faith in the one the Father sent is the RESULT of the Work of the FATHER, and not a work that we do! FAITH is not a work!

    I use the definition of words that are COMMON TO MAN! Definitions that the ordinary person understands! Too bad you have so much difficulty with common understanding. I live and work "IN THE WORLD" with common man. If I were to use the definitions you use in communicating God's word to them, they would run away at high speed. the world rejects your definitions because they are not valid! Mankind needing salvation is not attracted to those false definitions that you use.

    If you want to win souls, use the right bait!
     
    #12 Wes Outwest, Jun 27, 2005
  13. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    Wes,

    Do you suppose Jesus used the wrong language and so didn't appeal to unsaved men (Isa 53:3)? I suspect those that turned back went around some other way, not knowing their path lead to destruction(John 6:66), Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. Read in context, i.e., Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21.

    John 6:66 (KJV) From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio
     
    #13 Bob Krajcik, Jun 28, 2005
  14. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Then they did not remain disciples, BY THEIR OWN FREE WILL CHOICE!
     
    #14 Wes Outwest, Jun 28, 2005
  15. rc

    rc New Member

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    Wes,

    Truth is RELATIVE?

    Boy are you entrenched in humanistic, post-modern thinking.

    I guess when Jesus said He was THE truth, it depends on each man to believe for himself what that is. MY understanding of Jesus be the truth is Joseph Smith, Buddha, and Mohammad was truth and Jesus was then just saying He is a manifestation of those men..... NOT.

    And scripture doesn't support you. THAT's the truth.
     
    #15 rc, Jun 28, 2005
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