Regeneration or Conversion?

Frogman, EXCELLENT POST!

rufus

 

Hi Frogman;
A quote from you;
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The first thing, then, that God the Holy Spirit doth in the soul is, to regenerate it.
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My Reply;
Totally un true, not Biblical, No where does the Bible say that we are regenerated first.
Quote fro C.H. Surgeon;
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It is not a matter which springs up by a process of education, or by the example and excellent instruction of our parents; it is a thing which has to be obtained. Not imitation, but regeneration; not development, but conversion.
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Totally untrue;
We first have to be drawn by the Holy Spirit and indoctrinated by the hearing of the word. Which is education. We are not reborn or born again first This would mean that we are saved before we are saved. How absurd.

From Spurgeon;
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"faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God."
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My Reply;
Faith comes from the hearing of the word. and we hear just fine the things we want to hear.
Romanbear

 

Hi Frogman;
You need to show biblical truth not speculation and illogical assumption.The things of God are foolishness to men. Maybe this is why IMHO you don't understand them. I'll try to help you but first you have to open up your heart, a decision only you can make.
Romanbear

 

Man wanders in dregs of depravity and is sucked down underneath the mire and its putrid hellish stench... He thinks he can reach out and obtain the untainable and feels he came to it by his own will... I am regenerated because I sought regeneration and was converted when I heard the truth!... Foolish sinful man... Who gave you the ears to hear?... The eyes to see?... The heart and soul to understand?... Did you make yourself for this world?... Are you the creator?... Then why do you say you are?... You did not create yourself for this world neither did you for the next... Comments by me!

I love Spurgeon... What a great man of God... What insight... What truth... What light and beacon to show others what a great God we do have... Why others grope in the darkness Spurgeon is the torch and the reason why the darkness flees... Great Post! ... Brother Dallas... Brother Glen & Sister Charlotte

 

While Spurgeon may have gotten many things right in his proclamation he still was off on a few crucial things. I know Old School Baptists who do not give much for Spurgeon and his ministry. Spurgeon was quite unclear if not heretical on justification, and that is a serious thing. He held to the Lutheran scheme on justification, which is also the mainstream Protestant and Evangelical scheme, which is held by pentecostals, charismatics, anglicans, lutherans, presbyterians etc. etc., and most modern day Baptists. The old Particular Baptists of England, the Gillite Particular Baptists, and the Gadsbyite Strict Baptists, and some American Baptist branches as well, did not hold to Spurgeon's scheme on justification, but to Paul's. Such Baptists will I lift off my hat to.


Harald

 

Hi Frogman;
A quote from you;
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appreciate the offer Romanbear, but I remain convinced that only the Lord can and does open the hearts of men.

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Frogman this is still not Biblical. Where does scripture say that God opens the door to our hearts.
Romanbear

 

Romanbear....

You asked - Where does scripture say that God opens the door to our hearts?

How about - (Acts 16:14 KJV) And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

 

Could you please explain the difference? Thanks.

 

KenH. I will try to explain. First I will quote Spurgeon. The quotes are from a sermon of his on justification. I do not recall the name right now. It was a few years ago I collected the quotes to my files, and did not think to mention the name of the sermon. But it should not be too hard to find out if need be. It is obvious from Spurgeon's words that he was in line with Luther on justification, whom I quote after CHS. After these two I will quote some of those Baptists that did not hold to Spurgeon's and Luther's scheme on justification, but to Paul's. Comparing the two parties it should become obvious to you what I mean. Some time ago on this C/A forum in a certain thread I challenged those who hold to the Lutheran (Spurgeonic/Evangelical/Protestant) scheme of justification to show where in the Old Testament can be found their teaching of justification by faith IN the Messias. If it is not in the OT it is not in the NT, cp. Rom. 3:21 and you know what I mean. For some reason no one appeared to respond to my challenge. Besides the non-Spurgeonite Baptists I here quote I could give many more, but this post is long enough as it stands. Emphasis in the quotes are mine.

Spurgeon:

"I mention this at the commencement of this discourse, because as this is the faith which came of Abram's calling, so also does it shine in his justification, and is, indeed, that which God counted unto him for righteousness."

"Faith always justifies whenever it exists, and as soon as it is exercised; its result follows immediately, and is not an aftergrowth needing months of delay. The moment a man truly trusts his God he is justified. Yet many are justified who do not know their happy condition; to whom as yet the blessing of justification has not been opened up in its excellency and abundance of privilege."

"If Abram, when full of good works, is not justified by them, but by his faith, how much more we, being full of imperfections, must come unto the throne of the heavenly grace and ask that we may be justified by faith which is IN Christ Jesus, and saved by the free mercy of God!"

"Abram had no ceremonial in which to rest; he was righteous through his faith, and righteous only through his faith; and so must you and I be if we are ever to stand as righteous before God at all. Faith in Abram's case was the alone and unsupported cause of his being accounted righteous,"

"We are made righteous ONLY BY AN ACT OF FAITH IN the work of Jesus Christ."

"but our being righteous before God is not because of our holiness in life in any degree or respect, but simply BECAUSE OF OUR FAITH IN the divine promise."

"I would have you note that the faith which justified Abram was still an imperfect faith, although it perfectly justified him"

"If thou hast but the faith of a little child, it shall save thee. Though thy faith be not always at the same pitch as the patriarch's when he staggered not at the promise through unbelief, yet if it be simple and true, if it confide alone in the promise of God-it is an unhappy thing that it is no stronger, and thou oughtest daily to pray, "Lord, increase my faith"-but still it shall justify thee through Christ Jesus."

"So far, then, all is clear, Abram was not justified by works, nor by ceremonies, nor partly by works, and partly by faith, nor by the perfection of his faith-he is counted righteous simply BECAUSE OF HIS FAITH IN the divine promise."

"Faith justifies, but not in and by itself, but because it grasps the obedience of Christ.
I do not wish to enter into controversy as to imputed righteousness this morning, we may discuss that doctrine another time; but we feel confident that this text cannot mean that faith in itself, as a grace or a virtue, becomes the righteousness of any man. The fact is, that faith is counted to us for righteousness because she has Christ in her hand; she comes to God resting upon what Christ has done, depending alone upon the propitiation which God has set forth; and God, therefore, writes down every believing man as being a righteous man, not because of what he is in himself, but for what he is in Christ. He may have a thousand sins, yet shall he be righteous if he have faith. He may painfully transgress like Samson, he may be as much in the dark as Jephtha, he may fall as David, he may slip like Noah; but, for all that, if he have a true and living faith, he is written down among the justified, and God accepteth him. While there be some who gloat over the faults of believers, God spieth out the pure gem of faith gleaming on their breast; he takes them for what they want to be, for what they are in heart, for what they would be if they could; and covering their sins with the atoning blood, and adorning their persons with the righteousness of the Beloved, he accepts them, seeing he beholds in them the faith which is the mark of the righteous man wherever it may be"

END OF QUOTE

Luther (from his Galatians commentary, Gal. 2:16 or thereabout):

"We say, faith apprehends Jesus Christ. Christian faith is not an inactive quality in the heart. If it is true faith it will surely take Christ for its object. Christ, apprehended by faith and dwelling in the heart, constitutes Christian righteousness, for which God gives eternal life."

"Here let me say, that these three things, faith, Christ, and imputation of righteousness, are to be joined together. Faith takes hold of Christ. God accounts this faith for righteousness"

"A Christian is not somebody who has no sin, but somebody against whom God no longer chalks sin, because of his faith in Christ"

"The true way of becoming a Christian is to be justified by faith IN Jesus Christ, and not by the works of the Law."

"Here the question arises by what means are we justified? We answer with Paul, "By faith only IN Christ are we pronounced righteous, and not by works."

END OF QUOTE

Non-Spurgeonite Baptists:

Gospel Standard Articles of Faith (1800's):

7. We believe that the justification of God's elect is only by the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ imputed to them (Isa.14;24, 64;6. Jer.23;6. Mat.7;18. Luk.18;13. Acts.13;39. Rom.4;4-5&19, 10;4. 1Cor.1;30. 2Cor.5;21. Phil.3;9. Tit.3;5), without consideration of any works of righteousness, before or after calling, done by them, and that the full and free pardon of all their sins, past, present, and to come, is only through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of His grace. (Rom3;20-27, 4;22, 9;11. 2Tim.1;9. Heb.1;3, 4;22. 1Pet.3;18. 1Jon.2;1)

Goat Yard Declaration of Faith 1729 (Gill's congregation):
VII. We believe that the justification of God's elect is only by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, without the consideration of any works of righteousness done by them; and that the full and free pardon of all their sins and transgressions, past, present, and to come, is only through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of his grace.

Individual non-Spurgeonite Baptists:

”In what way is a man made righteous before God? I answer; he is not made so by any good works proceeding from himself, by his prayers, duties, and obedience, or by his faith and love to the Lord”.
- John Warburton, English Gadsbyite Strict Baptist (from the sermon ”The Righteous Glad in the Lord”, 1844)

”So nothing belonging to the poor soul can be his righteousness before God; it is not his humility and prayers, nor his love and faith, and communion with God that makes him so”. - ibid.

”So that those who are righteous before God are made so in Christ. They are a part of His mystical body, in union with the head; and all that Jesus is and has as the Head is imputed to and put upon them, the body, and here it is they stand everlastingly righteous before God. I know and am sure that when the soul is brought to know that he is righteous here, he does not want to be justified in any other way”. - ibid.

”Yet faith cannot satisfy justice nor merit the pardon of the least sin. Only Christ can do that. And that exposition that gives most glory to Christ and least to man, I believe is the truth.”
- Samuel Richardson, English Particular Baptist (from the lengthy treatise ”Justification by Christ Alone”, 1647)

”Some being apt to conceive that there is no Justification of a creature in no sense before and without faith, and so make Faith a joint-partner with Christ in the business of Justification. For, indeed, this is to me a certain truth, that whatsoever gives a being to a thing must needs be a part of that thing which it gives being to, and therefore, if there be no Justification in no sense considered, but as it has respect to faith. It is much to be feared, that that opinion claimed a great share of that glory which is peculiar to Christ Jesus alone.”
- William Kiffin, English Particular Baptist (from the foreword to the above treatise)

”The main and special thing the Apostle desired to know, and drove at in all his Preaching, was nothing else but "Jesus Christ and him crucified." And if the preaching of Christ in wisdom of words, the Cross of Christ might be made of no effect, 1 Cor. 1:17, much more do they make the death of Christ of no effect who will have any thing besides Christ alone to be their righteousness, in whole or in part”.
- S Richardson (ibid.)

”The titles given to such persons whom Christ justified, they are termed sinners, enemies, ungodly, Rom. 4:5 and 5:8,10. The Scripture does not call any that are believers, ungodly. They have their name from their better part. Therefore, believers are called holy, Saints, living stones, babes in Christ. And, therefore, seeing they were justified when ungodly, they were justified before they believed. Their believing did not justify them. Christ justified many, by bearing their iniquity;” - ibid.

” They attribute righteousness in part to themselves, in attributing it to their believing.” -ibid.

”They make justification not to consist in pardon of sin, but in a work of obedience, viz.: their believing; and deny Christ to have satisfied Justice for the sins of the elect”. - ibid.

”They rob Christ of the greatest part of his work his glory, and give it to faith, and set faith in Christ's throne. And an hundred errors more may be reckoned up that will follow their opinion”. - ibid.

”Many Make Their Faith Into Their Salvation and Their God Many make a god of their believing, and depend upon it, and fetch all their comfort from it, and venture all their salvation on it.” - ibid.

END OF QUOTING


Harald

 

The lost do not "wake up one morning and discover they are justified, forgiven, born again Christians. Then go seek out a Christian evangelist to tell them about the Gospel" as the Calvinist scenario at the start of this thread "proposes".

Rather - the Lost - REMAIN lost while they HEAR the voice of Christ as He DRAWS them. They are to CHOOSE life by that drawing and so with Christ on the OUTSIDE they OPEN the door and let Him come in (Rev 3:20)- at that point they are BORN again and it is "no longer I who live but Christ who lives IN me". Gal 2:20

In Christ,

Bob

[ May 04, 2003, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

John 3:3 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdon of God.

Every Christian knows the truth of these words, but how often do we consider the order of the actions of "born again" and "see the king dom of God? By tradition it is taught that a person sees the kingdom of God, desires to enter into it, and then believes, resulting in regeneration. Yet, Jesus taught that the unregenerate person cannot even see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, "You must be born again."

The contrast between flesh and spirit, unregenerate and regenerat, spiritually dead and spiritually alive, is complete, making the new birth an absolute necessity. You must be born again.


Mike

 

That is very nice Bob but sorry I don't agree!... You say they and point to the other fellow... What are you going to do with these verses... As the they is you and I and everyone else on here?

Romans 3:[9] What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

[11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

[12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

How did the they become regenerated and coverted?... Did they have anything to do with it?... Question... Peter when thou art coverted strength the brethren... Wasn't Peter already regenerated when this commandment was given?... Why did he need conversion and who performed the work... Peter?... Brother Glen & Sister Charlotte

 

Without regeneration, there can be no conversion. However, they are closely connected. Here is a good illustration. Conversion is like putting ice in the sun with the heat being regeneration. The sun melts the ice, but the changing from a solid to liquid is conversion. Scientists even use the word "conversion" to denote this change.

 

The verses I reference were Rev 3:20 and John 12:32. Christ stands OUTSIDE the door and knocks - "If ANY one hears AND OPENS the door I will then COME IN and dine with HIM". Christ DRAWS ALL mankind to him - The LIGHT shines in darkness - for Christ is the LIGHT that enlightens EVERY person. John 1.

Seems to work as the Arminian model predicts it would.


Romans 3:[9] What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

[11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

[12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


Certainly BOTH Calvinist and Arminian can agree - to the depravity of the sinful nature of man and the results of that nature APART from the DRAWING of Christ who DRAWS ALL mankind, who is the LIGHT that brings light to EVERY MAN, who stands OUTSIDE the door and knocks.

Yes - they CHOSE life - because while LOST - while UNSAVED they HEARD AND OPENED the door and THEN Christ came in. While LOST they were ENABLED by the supernatural "drawing" of Christ - enabled to OPEN the door -- and Christ THEN came in.

But there is no such thing as a born again - SAVED Christiant that does NOT have Christ "IN YOU the hope of glory" Colossians 1. So while Christ is standing OUTSIDE the door - they are ENABLED to open and then He comes IN.

Peter had already CHOSEN Christ at that point EVEN when many other disciples were leaving Christ (See John 6 last half of chapter).

Peter had ALREADY been filled with the Holy Spirit and had been given spiritual gifts and sent out to evangelize the lost (See Matt 10 first half of chapter).

Christ was not dealing with "the LOST" in the text you cited.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob... Excuse me!... Have you ever heard of a dead man hearing the knock or opening the door?... I've heard of a regenerated man doing it as he is alive and not dead but a dead man never!... Read Ephesians 2:1 for further enlightenment... In fact read chapter one that emphasises the reason for the quickening... I might as well say it here I get tired of hearing about this pitiful Christ knocking at the sinner heart to be let in... The Calvinist and Primitive Baptist brethrens Christ would kick the door down!... Brethren that is my GOD!... Like I say to each his own!... Brother Glen

[ May 04, 2003, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]