Regeneration verses God's Drawing?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

In a recent debate with Drfuss under the heading “Security of the Believer Beliefs” I attempted to get a straight answer as to a distinction Drfuss made concerning the nature of was termed by Drfuss as a ‘drawing’ by God which he obviously objected to it being categorized as a regeneration by God in what he termed as 'Calvinistic sense.' Although he used the word regeneration, Drfuss insisted upon a distinction from the sense employed and any Calvinistic sense. When I asked specifically if this drawing included in any way the granting of abilities to accept or reject salvations offer, Drfuss closed the debate.

Would there be anyone on the list that might be able to explain to the reader as to what this distinction Drfuss claims exists is all about? Does the drawing of God, from the eternal security perspective cited as the #2 viewpoint, involve the granting of abilities to accept or reject the offer of salvation in clear opposition to, or a completely differing sense, the generation or granting of abilites the Calvinist speaks about?

 

[BobRyan]

God "Draws ALL" as we see in John 12:32 - this not only "convicts the World" as we see in John 16 it also ENABLES all the CHOICE to accept salvation that depravity disables (as even Calvinists agree)

Though all are "drawn" NOT ALL are "born again" -- to be born again you must choose to go through the Romans 10 sequence.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: God "Draws ALL" as we see in John 12:32 - this not only "convicts the World" as we see in John 16 it also ENABLES all the CHOICE to accept salvation that depravity disables (as even Calvinists agree)

Though all are "drawn" NOT ALL are "born again" -- to be born again you must choose to go through the Romans 10 sequence.

HP: When does this drawing come that you say all men receive? Do we have this drawing from first light of moral agency, or does it come later in life? Is it possible to die before one receives this drawing? Does man have to be regenerated, i.e., be granted special gracious abilities, before he is able to accept or reject this offer of salvation?

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 10 says ALL have heard.

Romans 1 says that even pagans are without excuse regrading the clearly seen "invisible attributes of God".

Romans 2 shows us the case of a pagan who has no access to the Bible at all - being considered a "chosen Jew".

John 16 Says God "convicts the WORLD"

John 1 says that Christ comes into the world and "enlightens EVERY MAN"

Of course I agree that infants do not know this - they are saved.

In John 3 Christ says that the work of God on the human soul is not fully understood by the one being draw.

The "cheese exists" even before the lab rat is fully aware of the cheese. The conditions of the maze and the placement of the rat and the cheese are all being worked out long before the rat is fully informed.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR, I have never heard a single politician dodge the questions better than you just did. :laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

hmm - I never thought of those Bible texts as dodging something

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: hmm - I never thought of those Bible texts as dodging something

HPossibly a demonstration might shed some light on the subject. Ask me a question and I will respond with a Scripture.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Romans 1 says that even pagans are without excuse regrading the clearly seen "invisible attributes of God".

HP: Being without excuse has nothing to do with the cure.

BR: Romans 2 shows us the case of a pagan who has no access to the Bible at all - being considered a "chosen Jew".

HP:In light of the omniscience of God, why could not this be said? What does that have to do with the unfounded presupposition you hold to that all have had the gospel presented to them?

BR: : John 16 Says God "convicts the WORLD"

HP: Conviction of what? There is a slight difference between the universal conviction of sin and whatever you might be trying to inject into that verse.

BR: John 1 says that Christ comes into the world and "enlightens EVERY MAN"

HP: He certainly does. But that in no way establishes that that light is anything more than conscience.

BR: Of course I agree that infants do not know this - they are saved.

HP: Now I would be especially interested in seeing that verse.

BR: In John 3 Christ says that the work of God on the human soul is not fully understood by the one being draw.

HP: That is indeed true, but that verse does not grant you the right to interject an unfounded absurdity into the mix as you have done with the unfounded presupposition that God has given to all men the gospel message.

 

[BobRyan]

Curious that you left out the FIRST one - from Romans 10

Here it is again -

Romans 10
17 so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 but i say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; “their voice has gone out into all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”



The full text quoted in vs 18 above is as follows


Psalms 19
1 the heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of his hands.
2 day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 there is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard.
4 their line has gone out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world. In them he has placed a tent for the sun,
5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 its rising is from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them; and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

Clearly Paul is appealing (again) to nature's voice in declaring the truth of God
(as we already saw in Romans 1) - so that "they (the people - Jew and gentile) did hear" - fulfilling the
condition –

 

[drfuss]

HP: When does this drawing come that you say all men receive? Do we have this drawing from first light of moral agency, or does it come later in life? Is it possible to die before one receives this drawing? Does man have to be regenerated, i.e., be granted special gracious abilities, before he is able to accept or reject this offer of salvation?

drfuss: The answers given here do not seem to satisfy you. Perhaps we could communicate better if we found out what you have in mind by asking you some questions.

1. When asking how does this drawing come, are you expecting an answer involving psychiatry, emotions, unconscious effects, etc.?

2. Concerning regeneration, how does that occur in terms of the type of answers you desire?

3. If an unsaved visitor comes into a church on Sunday morning and accepts Christ at 12 noon, when does regeneration take place according to the Calvinist model? How long does it take?

 

[BobRyan]

? Is it possible to die before one receives this drawing? Does man have to be regenerated, i.e., be granted special gracious abilities, before he is able to accept or reject this offer of salvation?

#1. Gen 3 God said he would supernaturally place enminty between the lost race of man and the serpent - you seem to question that.

#2. In John 12:32 God SAYS He draws ALL and in John 16 Convicts ALL - the WORLD -- and in John 1 that Christ is the "LIGHT" that coming into the world "enlightens EVERY man" -- but you seem to question that as well.

#3. You equate "regeneration" with the "ability to choose" - but in fact it is the DRAWING of God that "ENABLES what depravity DISABLES" by way of choosing to accept the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

drfuss: The answers given here do not seem to satisfy you. Perhaps we could communicate better if we found out what you have in mind by asking you some questions.

1. When asking how does this drawing come, are you expecting an answer involving psychiatry, emotions, unconscious effects, etc.?

HP: No. I am simply trying to establish first what time in life does this drawing come. Here are some possible answers. 1. At birth 2. At first light of moral agency. 3. At some time subsequent to moral agency. 4. When the message of salvation is heard and understood.

Secondly I am trying to understand the nature of this drawing, whether or not man is granted any abilities to respond to salvation in this drawing, or if in fact all men have the necessary abilities to respond apart from this drawing. I am trying to determine whether or not this drawing is again passive, i.e. inline with a mere influence or persuasion to act upon the light of salvation, or if in fact this drawing is coercive in nature, granting man abilities that without which no man could accept or reject the gospel.

Drfuss: 2. Concerning regeneration, how does that occur in terms of the type of answers you desire?

HP: My purpose is not to lead you into responding in a certain way. My purpose is to hopefully force the listener to fairly examine not only ones beliefs, but the logical consequences of them. My hope would be to be instrumental in aiding the listener to thoughtfully consider his views and to seek eliminate any and all absurdities from ones views. We may have many uncertainties, but we should allow no clear absurdities to exist.

As to my personal views, I cannot accept the notion that God regenerates the soul antecedent to repentance and faith. To believe that God must regenerate the soul antecedent to accepting or rejecting salvation, places an absurdity into ones views if one believes that Christ died for all, that the atonement was made for all, and that there are indeed conditions to salvation.

I see a great inconsistency if not absurdity for one to say "I do not believe in a limited atonement," while holding to the very fundamental necessities of a limited atonement, i.e., the necessitated granting of abilities to reject or accept salvation antecedent to accepting salvation.

Drfuss: 3. If an unsaved visitor comes into a church on Sunday morning and accepts Christ at 12 noon, when does regeneration take place according to the Calvinist model? How long does it take?

HP: First, if the individual is actually saved, it has nothing in actuality to do with what happened on that Sunday morning according to the Calvinistic model. That is simply the day that the individual comes into a cognizance of what was accomplished for them two thousand years ago on the cross when their sins were paid for. It has nothing to do with how long it takes. It was already done for them. The salvation experience is just when they become personally aware of what has already been done, and come to realize for the first time that they have always been part of the elect, today simply being the day they were cognizant of it.

If my answers are not direct and answering your questions as you feel they should, just ask again and explain why I did not answer them directly. I will always try my best to be as open and honest as I can possibly be.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: #3. You equate "regeneration" with the "ability to choose" - but in fact it is the DRAWING of God that "ENABLES what depravity DISABLES" by way of choosing to accept the Gospel.

HP: Now explain to us the questions I asked before that you have not given a direct answer to. When does this drawing come to man? You say that all have received this drawing. If that is true, is it not universal in scope? If it is universal in scope, it is already been accomplished in the past. Nothing needs to be done now for any, or you cannot say “all have received.”

Your position is as foreign to any semblance of logic as one can imagine. If you take the position that all have (past tense) received this regeneration consisting of ability to respond, then logic demands there never has been a time when God has not granted this ability. If you take the position that all have not yet received this drawing, this granting of abilities to receive, you have to admit that God has not granted this ability to everyone. Reason would demand that the possibility exist that one could die prior to receiving this ability, therefore such a one could never have had any opportunity to receive the gospel, forcing the logical conclusion that God predestines the damned by withholding the needed abilities. Your reasoning clearly appears to fall apart logically and entertains absurdities from every angle.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said

BR: #3. You equate "regeneration" with the "ability to choose" - but in fact it is the DRAWING of God that "ENABLES what depravity DISABLES" by way of choosing to accept the Gospel.

The point being HP - you are saying "regeneration" is when you have the ability to choose - but not proving it. Where is the response to that?

I simply point out that many among BOTH Calvinists and Arminians admit that it is in the DRAWING that one is enabled as we see in John 6.

John 12:32 God DRAWS ALL
John 6 - that DRAWING ENABLES men to choose Christ

HP: Now explain to us the questions I asked before that you have not given a direct answer to. When does this drawing come to man? You say that all have received this drawing. If that is true...

I realize it fits your argument better to say "BOB says that God draws all" instead of "John 12:32 CHRIST says I will DRAW ALL" - but we both know this is in John 12.

It's just that it is harder for you to phrase it as "God says He will draw ALL... if that is true..." so you stick me in - in the place of God - because I can be questioned.

HP

If that is true , is it not universal in scope? If it is universal in scope, it is already been accomplished in the past.

Universal - yes. See Romans 1, Romans 10 as already pointed out.

In the past - yes -- see Roman 10 as already pointed out.

Nothing needs to be done now for any, or you cannot say “all have received.”

Where is the logic in that?????

Just because one CAN act does not mean all DID act.

Just because you reject ONE source, ONE level of persuasion does not mean you will reject ALL levels of persuasion.

Your point "does not follow".

Your logic flawed.

It does not work in every day life - it does not work at all.

Your position is as foreign to any semblance of logic as one can imagine. If you take the position that all have (past tense) received this regeneration consisting of ability to respond, then logic demands there never has been a time when God has not granted this ability.

First of all - I challenge your false definition that "regeneration" is where ability is granted - and you simply keep repeating it and claiming that I claim ALL have been regenerated.

Again - your logic is seen to be flawed.

But if we can stay focused on the actual point I am making - I do agree that ALL DRAWN means ALL enabled to CHOOSE - and that is true for all of time since the fall of man.

Reason would demand that the possibility exist that one could die prior to receiving this ability

The only case for that is infants who do not have the ability to reason to be drawn to understand right vs wrong.

"To Him that KNOWS to do right and does it not - to HIM it is sin"
"Whatever is not of faith is sin"

Again - the Bble is correct on this point as well.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[drfuss]

HP: As to my personal views, I cannot accept the notion that God regenerates the soul antecedent to repentance and faith. To believe that God must regenerate the soul antecedent to accepting or rejecting salvation, places an absurdity into ones views if one believes that Christ died for all, that the atonement was made for all, and that there are indeed conditions to salvation.

drfuss: Right now I don't have time to answer your entire post. However, based on the above, are you saying that you do not believe in any regeneration? I think most Calvinists believe regeneration occurs just before repentance and faith.

 

[DQuixote]

You probably should have defined regeneration and "first drawing" in your OP, HP -- your definitions, anyway.

From one of your subsequent posts:

4. When the message of salvation is heard and understood.

Secondly I am trying to understand the nature of this drawing, whether or not man is granted any abilities to respond to salvation in this drawing

.

Your #4 is correct, and for your "secondly", it is called Grace. Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me. Even our faith to believe, to step out in response to hearing and understanding, comes from Him. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, God's mystery is revealed to us. It is that sudden "AHA!" experience that I described to college students years ago. Some call it a "twinge" of conscience; I call it a spiritual revelation, a holy insight, totally outside the realm of human intellect.

In response to this electrifying event, some of us say "Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord, Yes!" --- and go on our way, rejoicing. Nothing, no thing, can ever take away from that marvelous revelation, that Divine Moment, that I am His and He is mine. God grant that everyone who hears the Good News enjoys an equally exciting, delivering, life-changing response.

:godisgood: :jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Bob said
Quote:
BR: #3. You equate "regeneration" with the "ability to choose" - but in fact it is the DRAWING of God that "ENABLES what depravity DISABLES" by way of choosing to accept the Gospel.


The point being HP - you are saying "regeneration" is when you have the ability to choose - but not proving it. Where is the response to that?

I simply point out that many among BOTH Calvinists and Arminians admit that it is in the DRAWING that one is enabled as we see in John 6.

John 12:32 God DRAWS ALL
John 6 - that DRAWING ENABLES men to choose Christ

HP: We all believe in the regeneration of the soul in one sense or another. The sense that I feel is inaccurate is the sense in which the word regeneration is used to depict the Holy Spirit acting upon the soul, enabling it to respond by the granting of abilities to do so antecedent to salvation. One cannot avoid deterministic fatalism with such a view.
I maintain that the soul is well able to respond to the gospel message without any such enabling, for God grants to every man the measure of faith and needed abilities to not only respond to the gospel but to act in accordance to benevolence, IF they would only choose to. Bear in mind, that once one has committed the first sin that no amount of benevolence will atone for one solitary sin. Since all have sinned, there is no possibility in our dispensation that any would not or will not need a Savior. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God and no amount of benevolence can or will atone for their sins, We need an Advocate!
When I use the word regeneration in reference to what I believe, I am using the term to express the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation, NOT the granting of abilities to respond antecedent to salvation as do the Calvinists and even some Arminians. Some Arminians prefer to call prevenient grace what I find little difference in that the regeneration of the Calvinists. If frankness is what this discussion calls for, I will tell you right now that there is one reason for the false notion of regeneration or prevenient grace (when thought of as the granting of abilities to respond to the gospel), ie., the false Augustinian notion or original sin. Both the Arminians and the Calvinists have developed these two notions as cover for the false doctrine of original sin, thinking that these doctrines somehow rectify their idea of sinful man being unable, according to original sin, to do anything benevolent, including the accepting of the gospel. I believe both camps are in Scriptural and logical error.

BR: I realize it fits your argument better to say "BOB says that God draws all" instead of "John 12:32 CHRIST says I will DRAW ALL" - but we both know this is in John 12.

HP: Yet another fine example of reading into the text your presupposition of God granting to all the opportunity of salvation. The Scripture has a little word “IF” that qualifies the all. It does not say that all will be drawn to salvation, but rather says that IF Christ is lifted up He will draw all me to Himself. If all men hear the gospel, all men that hear have the opportunity to respond. Nothing more can be fairly made of the text.

It should be clear to the reader that BR has one consistent problem. He makes no distinction between all men having a conscience awareness of sin and some idea of God and at least some obligation to Him, and the opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel. This is a fundamental error of great importance. God has indeed granted to men light and understanding of His existence, and in some measure right from wrong. Just the same this in NO wise can be extrapolated into suggesting that all have or will have the opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel. Such a notion as BR and others falsely make concerning God granting to all men the opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel, is yet another cover doctrine for the false notion of original sin. They must somehow, in the far reaches of their minds, believe by adding this false notion that it somehow justifies God for creating men as sinners unable to do right yet condemned. What they have not came to realize is, that even with the false notion that all hear and have an opportunity to respond they cannot avoid God being unjust in His condemnation of the sinner if the dogma of Augustinian original sin is correct.

BR: Universal - yes. See Romans 1, Romans 10 as already pointed out.

HP: What is universal in it’s application? The gospel message? Far from it. God will have mercy on whomsoever he wills.



Quote:

HP: Nothing needs to be done now for any, or you cannot say “all have received.”

BR: Where is the logic in that????? Just because one CAN act does not mean all DID act.

HP: Your position is that all have the opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel. IF that position is true, there is nothing now that could be undertaken by God now to see to it that all would hear, for by doing so it would validate the point that up until that time some have not heard. If you cannot follow that logic, I cannot help you. If all have had the opportunity to respond and hear, the gospel would OF NECESSITY be nothing more or less that a natural inclination from birth. If the possibility that one could be alive that has not heard the gospel yet, it could not be said that all have received the opportunity. It would be an ongoing process. If that is true, logic would demand that some will in fact die before the chance ever reaches them to hear and respond, for we know that infants, teens, and adults all die at all stages of development. That simply shatters the logic that all have or will hear the gospel, unless you are to say that the gospel message is inherent in our very make up and gene pool. Which is it? Trust me. There is a logical trail for you to follow in this part of the discussion although up until this point you have failed to do so.

 

[webdog]

HP: Now explain to us the questions I asked before that you have not given a direct answer to. When does this drawing come to man? You say that all have received this drawing.

Ecc. 3:11. Mankind was born with the desire for immortality, and to seek that.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

WD: Ecc. 3:11. Mankind was born with the desire for immortality, and to seek that.

HP: The question remains whether or not this desire, or any other natural propensity or desire, equates to hearing the gospel, and if it is a natural propensity or desire, does God have to provide special grace (in this case that of abilities) to take advantage of the offer of salvation that some are indicating is natural to man?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DQ: Your #4 is correct, and for your "secondly", it is called Grace. Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me. Even our faith to believe, to step out in response to hearing and understanding, comes from Him. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, God's mystery is revealed to us. It is that sudden "AHA!" experience that I described to college students years ago. Some call it a "twinge" of conscience; I call it a spiritual revelation, a holy insight, totally outside the realm of human intellect.

HP: What you denote as grace, I denote as justice IF, I say again IF, man is created as a sinner without hope and condemned for eternity for failure to do the impossible, i.e. overcome necessitated fate.