Regeneration verses God's Drawing?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: What "we consider" is of no consequence.

HP: That depends on whether or not what one considers is in light of the principles of truth and justice God places within our hearts and minds.

Do you deny that God has enlightened man’s conscience with truths of justice? Is it of no consequence to judge in accordance to or in opposition to such enlightenment?

 

[BobRyan]

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Why??

Why not simply accept that this is the supernatural Work of God "For ALL" as he "Convicts the WORLD" and "Draws ALL" unto Him - and that without it all you have left is the depravity described in Romans 3?

What is the problem with that? Just "preference"?

In Christ,

Bob

HP
HP: Scripture, reason, and experience clearly informs us that there is a distinction between conviction of sin, some knowledge of a Supreme Being, and having the gospel presented to them.

In my statement above I do not argue that all details of the gospel are present when the H.S convicts. Even John the Baptizer did not have them.

As to the depravity represented by Scripture, it is as far from Augustinian original sin as light is from darkness. Romans 3 in no way supports the false notion that sin lies in the flesh of man and not in the will.

Romans 7 says "SIN IN ME" and "IN my FLESH" there is war.

If that is what you are trying to resist then resist the text no longer.

Having said that - I am not arguing in favor of all that Augustine said in his doctrine regarding original sin and the lost state of infants.

So now back to my previous question - setting aside Augustine and the idea that the full gospel details must be presented before God can convict and save.

If God ENABLES all even though the sinful nature would "naturally" DISABLE all - why not accept that?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: In my statement above I do not argue that all details of the gospel are present when the H.S convicts. Even John the Baptizer did not have them.

HP: If the details of the gospel are not presented when the Holy Spirit convicts, is it your opinion that all have the gospel presented to them? If so, what verse states that your assumption is true?

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 10 -

"surely they have never heard have they?? indeed they HAVE!"

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: "surely they have never heard have they?? indeed they HAVE!"

HP: An astute and reasonable reader of the text just might in fact have a question to ask themselves. 'WHAT' have they heard?? The gospel? I think not.

 

[BobRyan]

I do not deny that "THEY HAVE HEARD" is the argument made in Romans 10 for "FAITH comes by hearing and HEARING by the Word of God".

The basics of the ONE Gospel message that goes into all the World via nature.

Rom 10

12 for there is no distinction between Jew and greek; for the same lord is lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on him;
13 for “whoever will call on the name of the lord will be saved. ”
14how then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 how will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “how beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
16 however, they did not all heed the Good News; for isaiah says, “lord, who has believed our report?”

Now the part everyone knows --

Romans 10
17 so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 but i say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;“their voice has gone out into all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”



The full text quoted in vs 18 above is as follows


Psalms 19
1 the heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of his hands.
2 day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 there is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard.
4 their line has gone out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world. In them he has placed a tent for the sun,
5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 its rising is from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them; and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

Clearly Paul is appealing (again) to nature's voice in declaring the truth of God
(as we already saw in Romans 1) - so that "they (the people - Jew and gentile) did hear" - fulfilling the
condition –

And using that Ps 19 context – Paul then continues…

Romans 10

vs 17 so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18but i say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

and this - is in perfect agreement with the opening context of the book of Romans - chapter 1.

Romans 1:

18 for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unGodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20for since the creation of the world his invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Clearly - they are without excuse because God did manifest himself as described in the text and still they refused the God that "draws all men unto him".

21for even thoughthey knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22professing to be wise, they became fools,
23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

So although Paul points to the witness of God's creation in Ps 19 as proving that
Israel is "without excuse" and did have the opportunity to "believe" - he also points to the motive of jealousy as God's witness to non-Hebrew people results in salvation.

Romans 10
19but I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,
“I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation,
by a nation without understanding will I anger you.”

20and Isaiah is very bold and says,
“I was found by those who did not seek me,
I became manifest to those who did not ask for me.”21 but as for Israel he says, “all the day long i have stretched out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

Again – Paul emphasizes the Gospel message of Isaiah (the Gospel prophet) confirming Paul’s statement that the Gospel message was given and that men rejected it then as they do today.

Indeed - God's chosen race, royal priesthood, holy nation - seemed to be rebelling against the God that called them, that chose them - in spite of the witness we see proclaimed in the OT and in Psalms 19 regarding creation itself

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR: "surely they have never heard have they?? indeed they HAVE!"

HP:

An astute and reasonable reader of the text just might in fact have a question to ask themselves. 'WHAT' have they heard?? The gospel? I think not.

GE:

The text and context is clear, it is the cold-hearted Law of Judgement no one ever, escapes from which they have all heard -- the condemnation Calvinism consistently presupposes; which every human being is personally responsible for.
The Gospel was that strange thing which Paul now introduced to these damned souls as the only way out.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:

"Again – Paul emphasizes the Gospel message of Isaiah (the Gospel prophet) confirming Paul’s statement that the Gospel message was given and that men rejected it then as they do today."

GE:

Yes, "in fact the Gospel was preached to them", says Hebrews 4. But nature did not proclaim it to them; nature or 'law' only condemned them. The prophets was it who proclaimed to them -- the very privileged to hear -- the Gospel!

Now, by your own admission, what do they all do with this Good Tidings? "...the Gospel message was given and .... men rejected it then as they do today" ....unless --- UNLESS by the grace and favour of God they in fact accept it. So says 'Calvinism'.