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Regeneration

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Bob Krajcik, Jun 21, 2005.

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  1. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    “[Regeneration] ...is entirely a supernatural act of God in response to the faith of the man,” (Major Bible Themes; p 99; Chafer, Walvoord). First, Do any have answers as to why this statement of Chafer and Walvoord should not be thought of as simply decisional regeneration? Second, Would any show reason why you would agree, the statement is showing decisional regeneration?

    Myself, I find that faith is in response to regeneration. Saying that regeneration is in response to the faith of the man appears to be decisional regeneration slipping in by some other name.

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio
     
    #1 Bob Krajcik, Jun 21, 2005
  2. exscentric

    exscentric Well-Known Member
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    Not sure what you mean by "decisional regeneration" - will assume you mean, as indicated, the regeneration is based on the decison for God. I'd say that is a fair estimation of Chafer's thought from the statement and not sure why you would suggest a "slipping in by some other name." as I think he was right up front with the statement.

    Because he doesn't use your coined phrase to describe it does not make it not so.
     
    #2 exscentric, Jun 21, 2005
  3. dale kesterson

    dale kesterson New Member

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    "Regeneration is the spiritual change wrought in the heart of man by the Holy Spirit in which his/her inherently sinful nature is changed so that he/she can respond to God in Faith, and live in accordance with His Will (Matt. 19:28; John 3:3,5,7; Titus 3:5). It is an inner re-creating of fallen human nature by the gracious sovereign action of the Holy Spirit (John 3:5-8). This change is ascribed to the Holy Spirit. It originates not with man but with God (John 1:12, 13; 1 John 2:29; 5:1, 4). It extends to the whole nature of man, altering his governing disposition, illuminating his mind, freeing his will, and renewing his nature." (JI Packer from "Regeneration")

    "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee."(Psalm 65:4)

    "That there is such a thing as a spiritual and divine light immediately imparted to the soul by God, of a different nature from any that is obtained by natural means." - Jonathan Edwards

    "The new birth is necessary before a person can believe in Jesus Christ. To understand why, an examination of what the Bible teaches regarding the fall of man into sin and its consequences is necessary." Brian Schwertley from The New Birth

    Faith is a response to regeneration, not the other way around.

    dale
     
    #3 dale kesterson, Jun 21, 2005
  4. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    exscentric:

    Based on your response I take it you say Chafer-Walvoord are advocating decisional regeneration.

    I said what I said because there are those that claim to deny decisional regeneration yet nevertheless accept regeneration being in response to the faith of man.

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio
     
    #4 Bob Krajcik, Jun 21, 2005
  5. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    Dale:

    Thanks for your comments showing defense of faith being a response to regeneration.

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio
     
    #5 Bob Krajcik, Jun 21, 2005
  6. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    Here is additional support showing faith is in response to regeneration:

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    mansfield, Ohio
     
    #6 Bob Krajcik, Jun 21, 2005
  7. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Bob,

    I don't disagree.

    But here's my question.

    Do you agree that regeneration, faith and repentance are simultaneous? We are discussing the logical order, correct?

    If this is true, is it correct to say that the conditions of salvation are faith and repentance?

    Logical order: regeneration, faith, repentance, salvation (Romans 10:9-10, 13).

    It happens simultaneously, but the logical order indicates that the condition of receiving salvation is exercising the gifts of faith and repentance that are bestowed in regeneration.

    If this is true, does failure to distinguish between regeneration and salvation cause the problem cited above concerning Chafer?
     
    #7 Paul33, Jun 21, 2005
  8. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    Paul:

    There is no salvation apart from faith, and there is no faith apart from regeneration. Regeneration is essential before there be any repentance or faith. Faith is granted to man by the operation of God. That operation is regeneration, IMO, and I think that is what is discovered in the Scriptures. The logical order is regeneration, repentance and faith, IMO. There is no time between regeneration, repentance and faith, that is to be measured by the standards men use, yet regeneration is first in logical sequence. I find reason for saying Chafer-Walvoord teach decisional regeneration, and see no reason for saying any different.

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio
     
    #8 Bob Krajcik, Jun 21, 2005
  9. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    This supports faith being a response of regeneration:

     
    #9 Bob Krajcik, Jun 21, 2005
  10. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    It seems to me very many churches teach decisional regeneration, but use words to make it appear they are not teaching decisional regeneration.

    Regeneration is in response to the faith of man, or instead, as I believe is correct, faith is in response to regeneration.

    “[Regeneration] ...is entirely a supernatural act of God in response to the faith of the man,” (Major Bible Themes; p 99; Chafer, Walvoord). First, Do any have answers as to why this statement of Chafer and Walvoord should not be thought of as simply decisional regeneration? Second, Would any show reason why you would agree, the statement is showing decisional regeneration?

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio
     
    #10 Bob Krajcik, Jun 21, 2005
  11. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Bob,

    Again, I don't disagree. But you failed to address my questions.

    Regeneration is the supernatural act of God in a person's life and it results in salvation.

    Faith and repentance seem to be the conditions of receiving salvation.

    Regeneration starts the process.

    So my question is: Failure to distinguish between regeneration and the result of regeneration, salvation, causes a misunderstanding and results in statements like Chafer's.

    Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 10:9-10, 13 seem to distinguish between salvation and regeneration.

    God regenerates, man excercises the gifts of repentance and faith as conditions of receiving salvation, and salvation is experienced and received.

    Logical order, yet simultaneous.
     
    #11 Paul33, Jun 21, 2005
  12. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    Paul:

    Paul, you say, “Again, I don't disagree. But you failed to address my questions.”

    Well, I think I did address your questions. Following is your questions word for word, and my answers from the previous post word for word.

    Paul asked the question:
    Do you agree that regeneration, faith and repentance are simultaneous?

    In reply,
    There is no time between regeneration, repentance and faith, that is to be measured by the standards men use, yet regeneration is first in logical sequence.

    Paul asked the question:
    We are discussing the logical order, correct?

    In reply,
    The logical order is regeneration, repentance and faith, IMO.

    Paul asked the question:
    If this is true, is it correct to say that the conditions of salvation are faith and repentance?

    In reply,
    There is no salvation apart from faith, and there is no faith apart from regeneration.

    Paul commented and asked the question:
    It happens simultaneously, but the logical order indicates that the condition of receiving salvation is exercising the gifts of faith and repentance that are bestowed in regeneration. If this is true, does failure to distinguish between regeneration and salvation cause the problem cited above concerning Chafer?

    In reply,
    I find reason for saying Chafer-Walvoord teach decisional regeneration, and see no reason for saying any different.

    To explain, I think my answers did answer your questions. I simply did not agree with the conclusions you have shown.

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio
     
    #12 Bob Krajcik, Jun 21, 2005
  13. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    Paul:

    You said:
    So my question is: Failure to distinguish between regeneration and the result of regeneration, salvation, causes a misunderstanding and results in statements like Chafer's.

    In reply,
    That really is not a question. I previously address the conclusion you are proposing. I do not agree with what you are proposing. Again, I find reason for saying Chafer-Walvoord teach decisional regeneration, and see no reason for saying any different.

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio
     
    #13 Bob Krajcik, Jun 21, 2005
  14. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    I think Chafer-Walvoord understand the distinction between regeneration and salvation, and so they recognize they are separate and distinct. I find reason for saying Chafer-Walvoord teach decisional regeneration, and see no reason for saying any different.

    “[Regeneration] ...is entirely a supernatural act of God in response to the faith of the man,” (Major Bible Themes; p 99; Chafer, Walvoord). First, Do any have answers as to why this statement of Chafer and Walvoord should not be thought of as simply decisional regeneration? Second, Would any show reason why you would agree, the statement is showing decisional regeneration?
     
    #14 Bob Krajcik, Jun 21, 2005
  15. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Bob,

    Forgive me for being dense. What conclusions did I make that you don't agree with?
     
    #15 Paul33, Jun 21, 2005
  16. exscentric

    exscentric Well-Known Member
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    "Based on your response I take it you say Chafer-Walvoord are advocating decisional regeneration."

    You did not tell us if decisional regeneration is what I gathered you meant, so I can't really say one way tuther.
     
    #16 exscentric, Jun 21, 2005
  17. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    Paul:

    At first you asked the question, "...Does failure to distinguish between regeneration and salvation cause the problem cited above concerning Chafer?" I responded to that showing I did not think that to be so. After that, in a different post, you said, "So my question is: Failure to distinguish between regeneration and the result of regeneration, salvation, causes a misunderstanding and results in statements like Chafer's." You called it a question yet I took it as a statement since I had answered a question regarding that matter previous, and the way you worded it the second time showed it o be a conclusion. If it was not a conclusion, then I was wrong about you having made a conclusion. That would have been the conclusion that I did not agree with.

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
     
    #17 Bob Krajcik, Jun 21, 2005
  18. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    Say, this is getting difficult, and the two original questions have barely been dealt with yet. exscentric, at first you said, “Not sure what you mean by "decisional regeneration" - will assume you mean, as indicated, the regeneration is based on the decison for God. I'd say that is a fair estimation of Chafer's thought from the statement and not sure why you would suggest a "slipping in by some other name." as I think he was right up front with the statement.” Later, you said, “You did not tell us if decisional regeneration is what I gathered you meant, so I can't really say one way tuther.

    In reply, What I mean is that Chafer-Walvoord are teaching decisional regeneration, when they say, “[Regeneration] ...is entirely a supernatural act of God in response to the faith of the man,” (Major Bible Themes; p 99; Chafer, Walvoord).

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio

    [​IMG]
     
    #18 Bob Krajcik, Jun 21, 2005
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ. Whereas the unregenerate person has no disposition, interest, or desire for the things of God the regenerate person is a new creation and is now receptive to the ‘effectual call’ of the Holy Spirit. In regeneration God through the richness of His grace grants to His elect spiritual life so that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.[Ephesians 2:7]

    John Dagg who wrote the first Southern Baptist Book on theology notes [Manual of Theology, pages 277ff]:

    “So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed. With reference to the mode in which the descendants of Adam came into the world, the change is denoted regeneration; and the subjects of it are said to be born again.”

    Dagg further notes:

    “The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”

    “The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”
     
    #19 OldRegular, Jun 21, 2005
  20. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik New Member

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    OldRegular:

    Great remarks, and I agree with most all you have posted here. Would you address specifically whether regeneration is the response of the faith of man, or if instead faith is the response of regneration?

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio
     
    #20 Bob Krajcik, Jun 21, 2005
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