That has no bearing on the statement. The verse does not say those who do not come were not drawn.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Relationship of Jn 6:44-45 with 6:64-66
- Thread starter Dr. Walter
- Start date
Dr. Walter
New Member
Yes it does (vv. 64-65). "Draw" in verse 44 equals "give unto" in verse 65 and Jesus explicitly says that those in verse 64 was not given unto or not drawn by the Father and that is the explicit reason Jesus says they did not come to him (v. 65).
Dr. Walter
New Member
The words "therefore I said unto you" in verse 65 are in response to his statement about "some" who beleive not in verse 64. Verse 65 is given to explain why they did not believe in him in verse 64. That is not my conjecture that is the plain common sense explanation by Christ.
He is explicitly explaining why "some" did not believe in him. It is becuase it was not "given unto" them by the Father. the words "given unto" is equal to the word "draw" in verse 44 as Jesus substitutes it for the word "draw" and therefore the explanation is clear and simple if you have eyes to see.
They did not beleive in him because it was not given unto them by the Father to believe in him which means they were not drawn by the Father.
Additionally Drawing is defined in John 6:45 as being Taught by God. How many are taught by God? ANSWER: "ALL" How many taught by God come to the Son in faith? ANSWER: "EVERYONE" that has been taught "cometh unto me".
Clear and simple. The only thing that prevents you from accepting explicit black and white truth is your doctrine.
I don't think anyone is denying that the Word of God is His method of speaking to us.
Remember, when these things were said, Jesus was here in the flesh and "coming to Him" had a physical component to believing in Him as He was orally revealing things not yet fully revealed.
Now in the 21st century, when folks "come to Christ" it is through the Spirit inspired words of the apostolic witness of the NT.
So the Word can be read or heard by an individual but if not revealed by the Father through the illumination of the Spirit (in this age as opposed to Christ in the flesh before the giving of the Spirit) one will continue on in blindness.
Those who are taught by the Father through the Spirit's ministry of the reproval of sin and the enlightenment of the Word of truth will be drawn to the light - Jesus Christ ("I am the light of the world" John 8:12).
Even at that however, this post does not address the responsibility of man in this "drawing" whether active or submissive.
HankD
Last edited:
Well, some Calvinists teach that a person can be regenerated as an infant before they can read, write, or have faith in God's word.
So, if R.C. Sproul believes what his assistant V.A. Voorhis believes, then they both believe a person can be born again, regenerated, made spiritually alive without the word of God.
The scriptures say otherwise. In Hebrews 6 it speaks of men who have been enlightened, have been partakers of the Spirit, who have tasted of the good word of God but are lost.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
You have 2 possibilities here that I can think of:
#1 a person can be saved and lose their salvation
#2 a person can be enlightened by the Holy Spirit and yet not be saved.
I personally believe #2 is the answer. I believe an unregenerate man can be enlightened by the word of God and the Holy Spirit to clearly understand that he is a sinner worthy of death, and that Jesus died to pay his sin, and that he must trust Jesus to save him, but this man refuses Jesus. I believe that this verse could be teaching that this man will be hardened, he will never again be brought again to this point of decision or repentance.
If there is another possibility, I cannot think of it.
Last edited by a moderator:
Dr. Walter
New Member
Hebrews 6:3-9 teaches neither option. Look at the context. At the close of chapter five they are admonished becasue of their stunted growth due to not applying what they have learned. They are told that "meat" belong to those who are "full age." The same Greek term translated as "full age" in verse 5 is translated as "perfection" in 6:3.
He does not want them to lay again the foundations but to go on to "full age" or maturity. He then says this they will do "if God permits." He introduces this exception and then explains the only reason that God would not permit them to go on to maturity in verses 4-6.
Using the subjunctive mode to introduce a hypothetic situation he says the only reason God would not allow them to go on to maturity is "IF" a true child of God could lose their salvation. Why? Because "IF" that hypothetical situation occurred then it would be "IMPOSSIBLE" to "renew them again unto repentance." In other words IF a true child of God could lose their salvation they could not go on to maturity nor be brought back to a state of repentance and be saved. Why? Because such a saved and lost condition does not reflect upon the one being saved and lost but upon the Savior. It puts Him to open shame because He has failed to save this person as He is the savior. Therefore one cannot be truly saved then lost and resaved.
This is illustrated by two types of soil demonstrating that all men are either lost or saved. You are either like the soil that has never been prepared, planted and cared for = lost state or you are like the soil that when prepared, and planted will produce fruit. In other words what God begins God will finish and therefore if you are saved you can go on to maturity.
This interpretation is then solidified by verse 9. There are certain things that "accompany salvation" that make the previous hypothetical consideration impossible. Where there is true faith there will be fruits (vv. 10-11) and perseverance in saving faith because salvation is founded upon God's promise and Christ's provisions as our Substitute which is both sure and stedfast.
So neither of your options are biblical or applicable to this text.
He does not want them to lay again the foundations but to go on to "full age" or maturity. He then says this they will do "if God permits." He introduces this exception and then explains the only reason that God would not permit them to go on to maturity in verses 4-6.
Using the subjunctive mode to introduce a hypothetic situation he says the only reason God would not allow them to go on to maturity is "IF" a true child of God could lose their salvation. Why? Because "IF" that hypothetical situation occurred then it would be "IMPOSSIBLE" to "renew them again unto repentance." In other words IF a true child of God could lose their salvation they could not go on to maturity nor be brought back to a state of repentance and be saved. Why? Because such a saved and lost condition does not reflect upon the one being saved and lost but upon the Savior. It puts Him to open shame because He has failed to save this person as He is the savior. Therefore one cannot be truly saved then lost and resaved.
This is illustrated by two types of soil demonstrating that all men are either lost or saved. You are either like the soil that has never been prepared, planted and cared for = lost state or you are like the soil that when prepared, and planted will produce fruit. In other words what God begins God will finish and therefore if you are saved you can go on to maturity.
This interpretation is then solidified by verse 9. There are certain things that "accompany salvation" that make the previous hypothetical consideration impossible. Where there is true faith there will be fruits (vv. 10-11) and perseverance in saving faith because salvation is founded upon God's promise and Christ's provisions as our Substitute which is both sure and stedfast.
So neither of your options are biblical or applicable to this text.
I am fully aware that the writer was not speaking directly to his listeners as he said, "But beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though thus we speak".
That does not negate the fact that the writer (probably Paul) speaks of people who have been enlightened, have partaken of the Holy Ghost, who have tasted of the word of God..., who fall away.
In the parable of the sower, Jesus said his word was sown in the heart of the wayside soil.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
I don't think the writer would write about an impossibility. I believe it to be a clear warning. The scriptures speak of others who fall away from the faith. If a person who is enlightened cannot possibly fall away, then why mention it?
You twist the scriptures here. Jesus showed the type of soil to be the responsibility of the hearer, not God. Immediately after telling this parable he said:
Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
Last edited by a moderator:
Dr. Walter
New Member
Friend the subjunctive mode and the word "IF" they fall away not that they shall "fall away." It is a hypothetical question raised and denied by Paul.
The parables of the four soils is jerked out of context by you. The first three soils do not represent true believers but three types of false professors. All are said to have received the seed/word. The first are those who profess but the word makes no difference at all in their lives. The second are those where it has only SUPERFICIAL impact but the "word of God" offends them. The third are those where it is no different than anything else in their lives and no priority in their lives. The last soil, is the only soil, broken up in contrast to the first, plowed deep in contrast to the second, productive of one crop in contrast to the third. It is the only soil that represents the whole RANGE OF DIFFERNCES between TRUE BELEIVERS - "some ten..some...some..."
Finally, you don't understand the context of this chapter. From chapter nine the leadership of Israel and the people of Israel have consistently rejected both John the Baptist and Jesus. In the final part of chapter thirteen the family and home town of Jesus rejected him. This is a context of rejection and Christ is explaining to His disciples why PROFESSING PEOPLE OF GOD reject Christ and His Word.
1. There is a HEART problem - all who profess are not saved
2. There is a COUNTERFIT problem in the professed kingdom of God
3. There is a DECEPTION problem
True believers receive Christ because it is given unto them (Mt. 13:10-18) and true believers are the "seed" among these tares in God's professing kingdom. The characteristics of the first three soils/hearts reveal who the false professors are and counterfit Christians within the PROFESSING kingdom.
The parables of the four soils is jerked out of context by you. The first three soils do not represent true believers but three types of false professors. All are said to have received the seed/word. The first are those who profess but the word makes no difference at all in their lives. The second are those where it has only SUPERFICIAL impact but the "word of God" offends them. The third are those where it is no different than anything else in their lives and no priority in their lives. The last soil, is the only soil, broken up in contrast to the first, plowed deep in contrast to the second, productive of one crop in contrast to the third. It is the only soil that represents the whole RANGE OF DIFFERNCES between TRUE BELEIVERS - "some ten..some...some..."
Finally, you don't understand the context of this chapter. From chapter nine the leadership of Israel and the people of Israel have consistently rejected both John the Baptist and Jesus. In the final part of chapter thirteen the family and home town of Jesus rejected him. This is a context of rejection and Christ is explaining to His disciples why PROFESSING PEOPLE OF GOD reject Christ and His Word.
1. There is a HEART problem - all who profess are not saved
2. There is a COUNTERFIT problem in the professed kingdom of God
3. There is a DECEPTION problem
True believers receive Christ because it is given unto them (Mt. 13:10-18) and true believers are the "seed" among these tares in God's professing kingdom. The characteristics of the first three soils/hearts reveal who the false professors are and counterfit Christians within the PROFESSING kingdom.
Last edited by a moderator:
Dr. Walter
New Member
Brother,
I owe you an apology. I should not tell you what I think you know or don't know or that I think you jerk things out of context. That does not promote good discussion and I apologize for that. I should simply present what I beleive is the truth in the best format that I can. I am sorry and will try keep just with data. I am getting old and I have found out that my patience even with my grandchildren is wearing thin.
I owe you an apology. I should not tell you what I think you know or don't know or that I think you jerk things out of context. That does not promote good discussion and I apologize for that. I should simply present what I beleive is the truth in the best format that I can. I am sorry and will try keep just with data. I am getting old and I have found out that my patience even with my grandchildren is wearing thin.
Dr. Walter
New Member
My friend,
You cannot take an illustration from one context and use it to interpret another illustration in another context unless all things are equal in each context.
All things are not equal. Paul presents only TWO types of Ground whereas Jesus deals with FOUR. Paul's reason is give a hypothetical reason why they would not be able to continue in their spiritual growth. Jesus' reason is to demonstrate why all in the professing kngdom of God are not true children of God.
The subjunctive mood manifested by "if" in verse 6 demonstrates only the hypothetical but unrealistic consideration that could prevent them from continuing in spiritual growth. The limitation to only two types of contrasting soils support it only a hpothetical consideration. The fact that Paul says there are things that "accompany" salvation that make it an ureal hypothetic consideration.
The first soil was never cultivated at all, never planted, but is characterized only be land that has never been cared for or developed. The second soil is one that has been cultivated, cared for and produces. There is no third soil that begins as cultivated, planted, and cared for but then turns to an overgrown field of weeds.
The blame for such a possible hypothetical case of apostasy of real children of God is placed on Christ not the person apostatizing. If Christ could not save him the first time neither could he save them by dying again and again for him. It would put Christ to open shame not the apostate.
Finally, Christ says this hypothetical case is not possible (Jn. 6:37-39). He explicitly denies that not ONE of those given to him by the father will be lost and ALL those given do come to him and NONE that come will be lost.
John explains that the only kind of professors in Christ that depart are those who never really part of us for if they had been really part of us "they would no doubt have continued with us" but they depart that we may know they were never of us. - 1 Jn. 2:19
Last edited by a moderator:
Well, I disagree, I believe this is speaking of persons who have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit and the word of God, yet do not commit themselves to Christ.
And Matthew Henry believed very similar.
I did not develop my interpretation of this passage from Henry, in fact I was a bit surprised that his views were so similar to mine.
This is a problem for Calvinism, because Calvinism teaches the unregenerate cannot possibly understand spiritual teachings. But the scriptures show the unregenerate man can to at least a small degree understand.
I agree fully that a person cannot lose their salvation, although I believe in preservation of the saints, not perserverance.
And as concerning the soils in the parable of the sower and in Hebrews 6. I disagree with your interpretation.
It is understandable that a person would believe the farmer responsible for the condition of the soil that he sows seed in. In practical real life conditions this is very true.
But in the parable of the sower, Jesus showed the hearer (the soil) is responsible for their own condition.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Verse 12 shows those that hear the word, but do not receive or believe it. It is like seed falling on hard, trodden down soil. It does not penetrate, but lies on the surface and the birds come and steal it away.
Verse 13 shows those that hear the word and receive it. I personally believe this is a saved person. But they fall away when difficulties or tribulations come along.
Verse 14 also shows persons who hear and believe (receive) the word of God, but let the cares and pleasures of life distract them. They never bear fruit.
But verse 15 are those that hear and believe and apply the word of God to their lives. These are disciples who live for Christ and proclaim his word, bringing new converts into the church (bearing fruit).
So, Jesus clearly shows the hearer (the soil) responsible for hearing, believing, and applying the word of God to their lives. And immediately after explaining the parable, Jesus tells his disciples to be very careful to what they listen to and believe. He promises to those who will listen and believe his words, more will be given. But to those who do not believe what has been revealed to them, even that revelation that was given them will be taken away. I believe this especially to be speaking of the seed that fell by the wayside.
Luke 18:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
And in Hebrews 6 it is the same.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
When God pours rain upon the earth, he expects and demands results. This rain represents his word and grace. He gives his word and a measure of grace to all men. Even a Calvinist must admit the word of God is available to all men.
But that soil that brings forth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing. Perhaps this is speaking of a saved person who is not lost, but their unfruitful works will be burnt, but they will be saved.
1 Cor 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
So, perhaps this is speaking of a saved person who wastes their Christian life in unprofitable works which shall be burnt up, and they shall receive not rewards.
But I also believe this passage in Hebrews 6 is speaking of persons who have heard the gospel and been illuminated to understand it. They understand fully that they are sinners in danger of perishing. They understand that Jesus died for their sins and rose from the dead. And they understand they need to trust Christ for salvation. But because of a love of sin they turn away and reject Christ. And I believe this passage is showing that a person who does this once and for all shall never be brought to this point of repentance again, they are hardened. From this point on, when they hear the gospel they will be more hardened against it. It is like Pharaoh, the more grace he received from God in seeing the plagues, instead of repenting, became more and more stubborn and obstinate. And at a certain point, God gives them up or over to a reprobate mind.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Calvinism teaches the unregenerate cannot understand anything spiritual, but Romans chapter 1 shows all men have some knowledge and revelation from God and are therefore responsible to respond positively to him. But to those who stubbornly resist God's grace, at some point he will give them over to believe a lie and deception.
2 Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
So, I believe that in both the parable of the sower, and the soil shown in Hebrews 6, it is the hearer that is held responsible for the condition of the soil.
It is understandable that a person would believe the farmer responsible for the condition of the soil that he sows seed in. In practical real life conditions this is very true.
But in the parable of the sower, Jesus showed the hearer (the soil) is responsible for their own condition.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Verse 12 shows those that hear the word, but do not receive or believe it. It is like seed falling on hard, trodden down soil. It does not penetrate, but lies on the surface and the birds come and steal it away.
Verse 13 shows those that hear the word and receive it. I personally believe this is a saved person. But they fall away when difficulties or tribulations come along.
Verse 14 also shows persons who hear and believe (receive) the word of God, but let the cares and pleasures of life distract them. They never bear fruit.
But verse 15 are those that hear and believe and apply the word of God to their lives. These are disciples who live for Christ and proclaim his word, bringing new converts into the church (bearing fruit).
So, Jesus clearly shows the hearer (the soil) responsible for hearing, believing, and applying the word of God to their lives. And immediately after explaining the parable, Jesus tells his disciples to be very careful to what they listen to and believe. He promises to those who will listen and believe his words, more will be given. But to those who do not believe what has been revealed to them, even that revelation that was given them will be taken away. I believe this especially to be speaking of the seed that fell by the wayside.
Luke 18:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
And in Hebrews 6 it is the same.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
When God pours rain upon the earth, he expects and demands results. This rain represents his word and grace. He gives his word and a measure of grace to all men. Even a Calvinist must admit the word of God is available to all men.
But that soil that brings forth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing. Perhaps this is speaking of a saved person who is not lost, but their unfruitful works will be burnt, but they will be saved.
1 Cor 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
So, perhaps this is speaking of a saved person who wastes their Christian life in unprofitable works which shall be burnt up, and they shall receive not rewards.
But I also believe this passage in Hebrews 6 is speaking of persons who have heard the gospel and been illuminated to understand it. They understand fully that they are sinners in danger of perishing. They understand that Jesus died for their sins and rose from the dead. And they understand they need to trust Christ for salvation. But because of a love of sin they turn away and reject Christ. And I believe this passage is showing that a person who does this once and for all shall never be brought to this point of repentance again, they are hardened. From this point on, when they hear the gospel they will be more hardened against it. It is like Pharaoh, the more grace he received from God in seeing the plagues, instead of repenting, became more and more stubborn and obstinate. And at a certain point, God gives them up or over to a reprobate mind.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Calvinism teaches the unregenerate cannot understand anything spiritual, but Romans chapter 1 shows all men have some knowledge and revelation from God and are therefore responsible to respond positively to him. But to those who stubbornly resist God's grace, at some point he will give them over to believe a lie and deception.
2 Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
So, I believe that in both the parable of the sower, and the soil shown in Hebrews 6, it is the hearer that is held responsible for the condition of the soil.
Last edited by a moderator:
Dr. Walter
New Member
My friend,
Your original point for your interpretation of Hebrews 3 and 6:4-6 and Matthew 13 and the soils was to prove that real born again persons can apostatize from the faith and be lost. If not, then what is the point for using those texts and interpreting them that way?
You disagree with my interpretation of both texts which is an interpretation that demonstrates true children of God cannot be lost and that these passages do not support true children of God becoming lost.
My interpretation agrees with the clear and explicit precepts of Christ in John 6:37-39 that denies one single solitary person given by the Father to the Son will fail to come or will be lost but your intepretation flatly contradicts the very explicit words of the Son of God.
You can't have it both ways. Either Christ lied in John 6:37-39 or your interpetations of Hebrews and Matthew 13 are wrong. He said that "of all which he hath given me I SHALL LOSE NOTHING," he did not same "of SOME which he hath given me I SHALL LOSE NOTHING."
Your intepretations of Hebrews 3 and 6:4-6 and Matthew 13 require that SOME of those the Father gave him shall be lost and that flatly makes Christ not only to be a liar in John 6:37-39 but confused as He is the author of Matthew 13 as well as John 6:37-39.
Your original point for your interpretation of Hebrews 3 and 6:4-6 and Matthew 13 and the soils was to prove that real born again persons can apostatize from the faith and be lost. If not, then what is the point for using those texts and interpreting them that way?
You disagree with my interpretation of both texts which is an interpretation that demonstrates true children of God cannot be lost and that these passages do not support true children of God becoming lost.
My interpretation agrees with the clear and explicit precepts of Christ in John 6:37-39 that denies one single solitary person given by the Father to the Son will fail to come or will be lost but your intepretation flatly contradicts the very explicit words of the Son of God.
You can't have it both ways. Either Christ lied in John 6:37-39 or your interpetations of Hebrews and Matthew 13 are wrong. He said that "of all which he hath given me I SHALL LOSE NOTHING," he did not same "of SOME which he hath given me I SHALL LOSE NOTHING."
Your intepretations of Hebrews 3 and 6:4-6 and Matthew 13 require that SOME of those the Father gave him shall be lost and that flatly makes Christ not only to be a liar in John 6:37-39 but confused as He is the author of Matthew 13 as well as John 6:37-39.