Revelation's Harlot

Hillary Clinton.

Or maybe Dame Edna.

COme to think of it, are they the same person? I've never seen them in public at the same time...

 

H = 1 ........ R = 1 ....... C = 1

I = 1 ........ O = 1 ....... L = 1

L = 1 ........ D = 1 ....... I = 1

A = 1 ........ H = 1........ N = 1

R = 1 ........ A = 1 ....... T = 1

Y = 1 ........ M = 1 ....... O = 1

.................................. N = 1

6 ................ 6 ............... 7



Wife of the Anti Christ = Whore of the Revelation.

Yupper. Seems Scriptural to me.

(Sorry. It's early in the AM and I just could't resist that one!!)

Bro. Curtis ...

Thank you for posing your question "without teeth" as it were. It is both a fair and legitimate question for any believer.

Have you studied in detail the Preterist position on this? This position could be a foundation for further discussion on this position.

Now, as for the Scripture which proves that point:

Consider that God regarded NATIONAL ISRAEL (not the Jews ethnically, but the nation which was comprised of the Jews which was given the name "Israel") as His BRIDE. There is a sexual conotation to this:

Eze 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.

Interestingly, this goes back to our discussion of the covenant also, for here we see God, in very graphic language of the day, spreaking His skirt over Israel, which is to say, taking her as His Bride into the marital bedroom.

(I remember many, many years ago when I read the story of Jacob and Leah how it struck me that the sexual act was seen to be the culmination and completion of the marriage.)

God took Israel to be His wife. But LOOK at what happens:

Ho 1:2 ¶ The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.

Read all of the book of Hosea and you will see that God is lamenting that His beloved Bride has become a HARLOT and given herself to other lovers (false idol gods).

There is also a hint of God's divorcing the Jewish people as "the Israel of God" and taking upon Himself the Gentiles who knew Him not:

Ho 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

This could only be the Gentiles who were, at the time of Hosea's prophecy, "not my people" yet who would become Israel as the sand of the sea.

Ho 2:2 Plead with your mother, plead: for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband:let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts;

3 Lest I strip her naked, and set her as in the day that she was born, and make her as a wilderness, and set her like a dry land, and slay her with thirst.

4 And I will not have mercy upon her children; for they be the children of whoredoms.

Call me an anti-semite and bigot if you wish, but the last verse is the description of the Jewish people today. Children of whoredoms, and their persecution of Christians proves it. The children of the bondwoman persecute the children of the free born.

Notice as you read Hosea that God promises restoration to ISRAEL. He promises that there will be a new day coming for Israel in which He will restore the covenant with Her (New Covenant) and build with Her a new relationship. It is very beautiful language, the language of faithfulness and love to HIS PEOPLE. It is NOT to the Jews as an ethnic race, but rather to the Body which is the Bride of Christ. This Body includes BOTH Jew and Gentile and is a far better covenant that in mercy it includes now the whole world. If you mix the term "Jew" with the term "Israel" you will be confused by this language and will, of necessity, have to be a dispensationalist to make any sense of it at all. The only problem then comes when you see the verses in the NT where Christ speaks of the setting aside of the Jews as the administrators of His Covenant.

The beauty of the New Covenant is that it not only includes those Jews who would accept Messiah, but the whole of the non Jewish world in God's love.

Let me try for an anology. I hope it makes sense. I have been married for 30 years. My wife is dreadfully sick, and in her sickness, she becomes quite irrational and hateful to me. She begins to cheat on me and do terrible things to me, yet I still love her.

One day (remember this is fictional!!) the doctors tell me that a new science has developed life like bodies which only need to have heart and brain transplanted into them. I agree to the operation and my wife is once again the loving and faithful woman she was. Yet, she is different. She looks different, even though she speaks the same language to me which we are familiar with.

This is what God did with His Wife, Israel. The old body of Israel (the Jews) was cut away, and the heart (continuation of liturgical system in the fulfillment of Christ -- Sacramental system) and the mind (OT to NT - prophetic fulfillment in Christ) remained. But the BODY was different. No longer was Israel composed of just Jews with the Gentiles looking in from outside. Now the Bride is composed of those who were outside and those who were inside.

Sorry. It's a weak analogy I know. I'm not real good at things like that. Maybe someone else can improve upon it.

So try to think of the book of Revelation in Jewish terms. The first believers were Jewish, and in hearing this terminology, their minds would have gone back to these (and other) prophecies which used this sexual language in regards to the relationship of the corporate nation with God. In their understanding, ONLY NATIONAL ISRAEL had a marital union with God which made Her special among all members of the earth. And the Israel of God, which we Catholics believe is the Church, still has that special place as the Bride of Christ. (Again, note the marital language of the NT). Think in those contexts!!

Anyway, great question, and one which I hope will make for a long and fruitful thread. From here, let's take specific incidents in the book of Revelation and discuss them to see if Revelation really could be about the final days of Jerusalem (Preterist view) and if there is any legitimacy to this view, okay?

Nice talking at ya this AM.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Interesting That The Figure Is A Woman..Someone Wanting To Be The Head But Isnt.

Like Proverbs..The Foolish Woman, or The Adulterous Woman, or The Evil Woman
Like The Foolish Virgins without Oil..

Wanting To Be Something But Isnt..and Chooses To Live Alternately Their Own Way.

She Represents The False Religion Of People..A Religion
Based On The True Religion..Jesus The Christ, But Not Following Him As Lord
The Disobedient Children Within The Body Of Christ..The Children Of Wrath.
Ever Wanting To Know The Truth But Continually Opposing Themselves with Their Own Imaginations..

Not Abiding In Christ, Not Being Indwelt With The Holy Spirit.."Saved" But Disobedient.

John Dreams A Colorful, Imaginative Vision But Its The Same Old Story Throughout History.. The Church or Body Of Christ Is Composed Of Two Groups Of People..
Both Saved (Atoned) but One Group Abiding in Christ and The Other Not Abiding..Carnal Christians..They are Adding Law To The Law Of Liberty or Adding Law (or Carnal Judgements) To The Gospel Of Grace..

Example:

God Says To Love Your Brother..You Dont Want To..You Made A Judgement Of Who Your Brother Is...You Are Not Submitting To The Will Of God..Or Submitting To The Will Of The Lord..( Remember The Lord Lord, I Never Knew You..Not Submitting To A Jesus As Lord). Its That Easy...You Are To Love, You Are The Bread Of The Covenant Meal..You Are To Be Broken For Your Brother , You Are To Submit..That is Abiding With Jesus Within You, and As Lord....Its Sounds Easy, But If Your Disobedient..Its The Hardest Thing In The World to Do of Your Own Will and Without God Directing Your Life.....To Love Your Enemies....To Love All Men...

The Harlot Is An Embodiment Of A Character Representing All Of THe Disobedient Children Within The Body Of Christ..Or The People Who God Has Drawn To Jesus.
They Have Just Refused To Accept Him As Lord..

Remember..Baby in Christ, Child, Young Man, Father..Their Between Child And Young Man..Their Choice Is To Accept Jesus As Lord..Yea or Nea? Nea..Remain a Child..A Disobedient Child. Yea..Grow into a Young Man..Abide in Christ. Wash your Mind at the Laver (OT Tabernacle) Sanctify Yourself To The Lord. Enter The Veil..Or The Door..or The Kingdom Of God..The Sanctuary....Walk in The Light..The Golden Candlestick, Fellowship..The Shewbread. Revelations and Jewish Traditions Still Parallel With The Christian Walk. Wise Virgins..Come On In...Foolish Virgins, Sorry..Low on Holy Spirit oil of Annointing..or Simply "Not Abiding".

Sanctification and Regeneration Of The Mind Has Two Components. Knowledge and Instruction (or Experience). Failng In One of The Two Parts of These Expereinces of Faith disallows you to Progress in Your Relationship Of Discovering Who God Is. It Requires Total Submission To A Sovereign Lord. Its Not A Choice..Its A Command.
Refusing To Successfully Accomplish Your Trials of Faith only Creates Wrath Within Yourself. You've Given Your Best. But Its Not Good Enough For God..Try Again..Total Submission...Its A Growing Process.

Think About Judging Your Brother. Do We Have That Right?. To Hold Him Under Condemnation and Judgement. God Says Love..Offer Mercy..Offer Forgiveness..Offer Compassion..Offer Yourself. Not Judgement and Condemnation (Thats Carnal and Selfish) ...But Some Do.

So That The Two Groups Within The Church Are Identified But Exist Together For A Purpose..To Eat Together..A Covenant Meal.. Vessels of Mercy Offering Themselves To The Vessels Of Wrath.. Christ Loving His Children...By Feeding Them. Obedient Feeding Disobedient.. and Notice in the OT Terminology..We "Fellowship" Together in The Outer Court of The Tabernacle. Where All People Meet.Good and Bad. Right and Wrong. Truth and Error.

The Harlot Doesnt Represent Any Persons outside The Body of Christ..
The Harlot Doesnt Represent Any Persons Who God Has Not Drawn To Jesus.
The Harlot Represent All Of The People Living Under The Law....Sinners living by Law.

Heres A Deeper Statement..The Harlot Represent All Belivers That Are Not To Be Called "Sons Of God". She Represents Priests Who Cannot Enter The Santuary Because Of Blemishes and Spots.They Are Citizens Of Gods Kingdom. Even Priests serving God But For Some Reason Cannot Enter Into Gods "Rest". His Sanctuary.

Babylon..The False Religion That Is Represented By Allowing Judgement To Triumph Over Grace...Law Over Liberty, death Over Life. By Adding Law To The Sacrifice of Jesus. Simply By Failing To Live By The Commandments of God...Love God, Love Man
with Your Entire Being. Allowing The Law To Rule Your Life. Your Carnal Mind, To Rule Your Life Instead Of The Spirit Of God.

The Blood Of The Saints Were Killed By These People..Figuratively..Killed With Hatred Of Refusing The Truth..Carnal Christians Killing their Brothers..with Hatred, Envy, Strife, Malice, Unforgiveness, Bitterness...The Usual Evil Stuff. But The Tricks On Them..We Offer Ourselves As Sacrifices.. They Dont Kill Us..Were Already Dead. So There Is No Offence Towards Us..They Dont Offend Us or God. And If There Are Any..We Immediatly Offer Forgiveness For Them..Every Defilement Within The House Of God Is Covered By The Blood Of Jesus.


Thats Enough To Chew On for Now..or would you like some Warm Milk and cookies...

Me2

 

I don't the the HotR is a body,person, or organization that exists today. I think it's one that will eventually come into existence.

Can't really back that up with scripture, because it seems scripture is a bit silent on that issue.

It could very well be people from our own pews, together with people from other pews, who go off to form the HotR.

Just my $.02

 

When a woman is used as a symbol in the Bible (In James 4 for example) we have the idea of a church - an impure woman is a church in apostacy - a pure woman (Rev 12) is seen fleeing into the wilderness - an impure woman in Rev 17 is seen coming out of the wilderness.

Pagan Rome persecuted the pure Christian church and drove it into the wilderness - the symbol that we see in Rev 12.

2 Thess 2 predicts apostacy just as does Acts 20.

In Christ,

Bob

 

When a woman is used as a symbol in the Bible (In James 4 for example) we have the idea of a church - an impure woman is a church in apostacy -a pure woman (Rev 12) is seen fleeing into the wilderness - an impure woman in Rev 17 is seen coming out of the wilderness.

And what "woman" was found in the wilderness according to the Scriptures?

Pagan Rome persecuted the pure Christian church and drove it into the wilderness - the symbol that we see in Rev 12.

You know, this is hilarious really. Rome is never once mentioned in the book of Revelation. You "sola scripturalist" guys can be really picky about using only the Bible for your doctrines -- until you get to one of your pet teachings. Then the rules for interpretation seem to go right out the window.

Perhaps we should do a little detective work inside the book itself to come to an answer

Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

WHO was it that began from the start to make war with the seed of the woman who had the testimony of Jesus Christ? Was it the Romans or the JEWS??

Re 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

The beast which carries the woman is the Roman empire, so designated by the scarlet color which is known historically as an IMPERIAL COLOR. The woman carried is the Jewish nation which "rode upon" the beast in receiving all her substance from the occupying Romans.

Re 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Notice that the woman is arrayed in the colors of purple (royalty) and scarlet (imperialism), decked with gold and precious stones (Rev. 18: 6 and 21:9). By comparing this language with the language of Rev. 18 and 21, we see that the woman is identified with the city of Jerusalem. This city, and the Jewish religion which Jerusalem represented, was the Bride of God (Eze. 16: 8). But as I mentioned in my first post in this thread, the Bride of God, decked out in her royal wear, had become the harlot of Revelation by turning Her back upon Her divine Husband.

Re 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Long before Christianity came to Rome and the Roman persecution began in earnest, the Jews were killing Christians. Observe Saul, going forth "breathing threats and murders" to exterminate this new sect from the face of the earth. He is but one of many who were drunken with the blood of the early believers.

Re 17:7 ¶ And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Then further on we see:

Re 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

This is a very exact description of what the armies of Titus did to Jerusalem in AD 70. The city was so leveled to the ground that passersby remarked that had they not known that there had once been a city there, they would have never known.

Re 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

According to J.S. Russell in his book THE PAROUSIA, this verse is interpreted by vs 10, which says that the 7 mountains are 7 kings. This would point to the 7 governors of the Roman empire who bore rule in Jerusalem: Cuspius, Fadus, Tiberius Alexander, Ventidius Cumanus, Antonius Felix, Portius Festus, Albinus, and Gessisus Florus. Nero himself was the eighth, and yet of the seven, he himself being the beast of the Revelation.

Re 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Jerusalem reigned over the kings of the earth by virtue of having the true religion of God. She may not have been the largest of the nations, or the most influential politically, but in Her was the salvation of God in the coming Messiah, and the ordinances which would forgive sins. In Her was the true worship of God. Thus, in this, the truest sense, did She rule over the nations, for all nations will be judged by how they related to Her.

Revelation is a book which speaks of things which are said to be ready to happen "soon" and were to "shortly come to pass". 2000 years does not fit this language at all, for such a period of time is neither shortly to pass or soon. Revelation records the end of the aion of Jewish rule of the kingdom, the transistion into the next aion, and the coming of the New Covenant kingdom.

Premillenialism is a fanciful idea which was cooked up in the 19th century. It was not known prior to that time. Hopefully, some day it will disappear from the earth as a teaching and be seen as a curious antiquity without substance.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Catholic Convert:
Please don't lump all of us orthodox Protestants ("sola scripturalists") in with Dispensationalists. That would be like one of us blaming all Roman Cathlic priests for being homosexual child molestors just because the practice has been widespread in recent years. It would be ridiculous if we made that assertion, wouldn't it?

You're thinking of Dispensational Premillennialism. Check your history, bub. Classic / Historical Pre-Mill. was the prevailing view in the Early Church. The prevailing view changed when St. Augustine taught Amillennialism.

 

OK, I'll jump in. I know of only one city that is 'clothed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls,' and who has given 'glory and luxury to herself.'

It is Vatican City.

It wasn't Rome. Rome was primarily slums once it had become an actual city. Rev. 18:3 says "ALL" the nations 'have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries.' Rome never influenced ALL the nations of its time. China, Japan, and the Central American civilizations, for instance, could have cared less about Rome.

And this 'woman' leads the world astray. Roman Catholicism certainly has done that. It has, as well, definitely become drunk with the blood of the saints.

And it is the Pope now who is one of the forefront leaders for worldwide ecumenism -- the merging of all religions (under him, of course...).

So there it is, out in the open. What a lot of people think but not many will say.

 

Helen, I agree!

MEE

 

I know of only one city that is 'clothed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls,' and who has given 'glory and luxury to herself.'

It is Vatican City.

I dunno. Vatican City by todays standards, while ornate with renaissance art and architecture, has been surpassed by countless cities since. There have been numerous churches that make St Peter's look small. Likewise, there have been other cities that have museums that are more ornate and of greater size than Vatican City.

I've been to Vatican City and I gotta chime in that you really feel the attention to Jesus and the Bible when you're there. I didn't remotely get the idea that this was a shrine built to edify a pope, but that it was a temple built to glorify God. Those rennaisance artsy folks were pretty good. Too bad we non-Catholics don't at least incorporate some of that.

Of course, I was a student of art and architecture in college, so maybe I'm biased

 

John, I started to say, "Spoken like a true Catholic," but then I see it was the art that really got your attention. Silly me!

BTW, I asked before, does anyone have a link that was posted that was called "The Vatican?" It had pictures of the leaders of the RCC dressed in scarlet and purple, as well as a tremendous amount of literature. I would love to be able to have it to read the rest of what it had to say.

MEE

 

Yeah, it seems that in post-reformation times, many churches shunned a lot of art and architecture, in an arttempt to distance themselves from cultural catholicism at the time. I think we all got ripped . I think enough time has passed that we could inject a little more culture into our church property, don't ya think? Wouldn't it be cool if non-believers stopped by a local baptist church just to see the artwork, and ended up learning something about Christ? Okay, I could go on a tengent with that...

I think the clerical robes of a bishop or cardinal are still traditional black, but with piping or accents in scarlet or purple. They're not scarlet and purple per se.

I could be wrong (yeah, it happens )

[ October 14, 2002, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

Both Catholic and Protestant scholars admit that it is Pagan Rome in Rev 12 that is waiting to kill Christ at his birth. The idea that we can not find "Rome" in the book of revelation is just silly. You are not even making the Catholic argument let alone a Protestant one.

It was Rome - the Jews had no objections at all to a Hebrew child being born in Bethlehem. In fact it was not the Jews klling baby boys in Bethlehem - it was the Roman puppet government.

And after Pentecost it was the Romans that killed the Christians - and Hadrian that banished all Jews from Palestine for 500 years.

The seven heads and Ten Horns does show the Pagan Roman empire - but the impure woman - is in fact a perversion of the morally pure. The woman was "supposed" to be pure - but was not.

It is - as James states - a church in apostacy. "You adulteress" James 4:4. The term is applied to Christians that are compromising with the World "Friendship with the world is hostility toward God" - James 4:4.

Re 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

The jews "ceased" to be "Any kind of Force" after 70 ad and the destruction of their nation.

The church IS the bride of Christ according to the NT authors AFTER the resurrection of Christ. The Pure woman After the resurrection - is the church - even by Catholic standards.

The imipure woman - according to James "the adulteress' is the christian church - compromised with the World. No guessing - James states it explicitly - and oh yes - John and James knew each other.

Your reasoning is just flawed - Rev 17 predicts the destruction of the harlot - but the Jews had already been decimated by the Romans BEFORE John started the book. This is so - Not the persecuted/wiped-out/decimated Jews that it is not funny.

Premillenialism is spelled out explicitly in Rev 19 and 20. In 19 we have the 2nd coming. In 20 we have the FIRST resurrection - remember 1Thess 4? and then the 1000 years and then the 2nd resurrection "the resurrectoin of the wicked".

It's all there - spelled out for you. First century A.D.

In Christ,

Bob

[ October 14, 2002, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Bro. Curtis all you have to do is find in scripture who first played the harlot and there is your answer. I'm not getting into this mess here again!... Brother Glen

 

Brother Curtis,

Just wondering if you could point me to the verse(s) that states that the "antiChrist" will have nothing to do with women. Also, I'd like to see your studies that have led you to believe that a future Pope will be Jewish. Thanks, and God bless,

Grant

 

Bro. Curtis, why wouldn't the anti-Christ be Arab, you know, descended from Abraham/Ishmael? Did you know, for instance, the King of Jordan traces his father's lineage back to Muhammad and from Muhammad back to Ishmael? They are Hashemites. (His mother is British.) Just thought I'd throw that in, not suggesting he is the anti-Christ, but just tossing it out here.

The anti-Christ could emerge as the Peacemaker between Palestine and Israel. (Not Arafat, someone else.)

BTW, the Bible says the anti-Christ will be a hater of women.

 

I don't know any priests who hate women. As someone who has felt and accepted my call to such a vocation, I know this from personal experience. Many of my best friends are female, and the person that I confide in most is female. Nor do I frown (AT ALL) on marital relationships; they are wonderful, wonderful things. I'm simply not called to that, for I find peace in devoting my life to God entirely. It's in no way a hatred.

I'd hate to think you'd make this equation (priests = haters of women = antiChrist) when it's so utterly ridiculous.

God bless you,

Grant