Right Islam vs. Wrong Islam

KenH · Jan 1, 2006

http://tinyurl.com/7e7gn

fromtheright · Jan 1, 2006

Ken,

Very interesting article. Do you believe that AQ is seeking technology for a nuclear weapon to detonate within the U.S. or that they would so so if they had it?

KenH · Jan 1, 2006

Al Qaeda is made up of a bunch of bad folks and I would not put it past them to do harm anywhere, any time, to anybody using whatever was on hand to use.

You are a really fast reader, ftr.

fromtheright · Jan 1, 2006

Actually, I'm a pretty slow reader but I'm fairly familiar with Wahhabi'ism so I skimmed over most of the first half and honestly had not yet read the last half (recommendations), which I've now done.

The question I raised was actually to get back to the NSA wiretap issue and my point that it is a national security and not a law enforcement issue. I understand your point, though, about simply following the law, and appreciate the honesty of your earlier qualification that if the law was broken, there must be accountability. My point is that when confronted with such a palpably evil, rabidly fanatic, and deadly enemy, we should avail ourselves of such tools, even cutting some slack for violation of safeguards if it increases the chances of catching such vermin and stopping such attacks.

KenH · Jan 1, 2006

I appreciate your comments, ftr. I would also be interested in your comments about the column that I linked to begin this thread.

fromtheright · Jan 1, 2006

Ken,

Touche'. I was using it as a nice segue back to your earlier posts.

The short answer, in addition to promoting moderate Islam (which is quite silent, BTW; timid souls we aren't getting much support from at the moment), is to locate and DESTROY the enemy.

Most of it is a bunch of liberal pipedream crap:

(1) Human dignity. Great. Yes, it's there. So what exactly do we do with it to combat this evil?

(2) "the ability to mobilize immense resources to bring to bear on this problem, once it is identified and a global commitment is made to solve it". What resources do we use exactly and how do we (a) mobilize them and (b) bring them to bear on anything?

(3) "the ability to leverage resources by supporting individuals and organizations that truly embrace a peaceful and tolerant Islam" Again, they're pretty silent. And how do we turn that warm embrace into something to counter these monsters?

(4) "nearly 1,400 years of Islamic traditions and spirituality, which are inimical to fundamentalist ideology" They haven't been ALL hugs and kisses until the Wahhabi's showed up.

(6) "the power of the feminine spirit" Give me a break.

(8) "the ability to harness networks of Islamic schools to propagate a peaceful and tolerant Islam" Ability? As demonstrated by what? The only ones who have shown such ability are the fanatics who are using those schools. And how will that be turned around?

(9) "the natural tendency of like-minded people to work together when alerted to a common danger" Time for a group hug before we go teach the bad guys about tolerance.

Numbers eleven (counter ideology based on moderate sects) and fifteen (the nation-state) are the only ones of the remainders that make any sense. That's nation-state, as in the U.S. As in the U.S. locating and KILLING the enemy.

Pardon me if I'm not enthralled at this, mostly puffy, excuse for a strategy.

LadyEagle · Jan 1, 2006

The author of this piece has a nickname, Gus Dur.
Born of a wealthy family, he was President of Indonesia for a very short time. After being run out of the Royal Palace on a rail for charges of corruption, etc., he sought refuge for medical treatment in the US at Johns Hopkins, and it was unsure if or when he would ever go back to his country.

He became embroiled in a corruption scandal when his personal masseur fled, allegedly with more than $4m of state funds.

Mr Wahid himself was accused of misappropriating donations from the Sultan of Brunei.

He was censured by parliament, despite his repeated denials of wrongdoing and the somewhat circumstantial evidence against him.

The world's fourth-largest nation now lies in a mess.

Some supporters want to fight a "holy war" for Wahid

Under his stewardship, the country was blighted by economic turmoil, with the freefall of the rupiah, as well as recurrent violence.

Jakarta has seen bloody political protests, with ethnic and religious bloodshed elsewhere, and separatist tensions in far-flung provinces.

The enormous archipelago appears to be fraying at the edges.

Shortcomings

All the qualities that were once hailed about Mr Wahid now appear to his shortcomings - his tenacity is seen as stubbornness, his outspokenness viewed as diplomatically dangerous, and he has upset some foreign governments.

His erratic behaviour and conflicting statements may have helped him survive the Suharto era, but in a president they appear sorely out of place.
Click to expand...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1356392.stm

Seems, as President, he didn't do too much to address human rights abuses, according to HRW.

Despite the horrific record of the armed forces since 1965, not a single high-ranking military officer was prosecuted during his tenure. For every step forward, it seems, there was a step backward. Gus Dur publicly apologized for the role played by his own organization, the NU, in mass killings of communists and suspected communists in the mid 1960s, but he did not take a firm stance in support of creating a framework for public resentments to be aired and a more honest telling to emerge. On occasion, he publicly expressed support for tribunals for past atrocities, but he did almost nothing to see that such tribunals were established and, to date, they have not been. Indeed, soon after ousting Wiranto in February 2000, Gus Dur unilaterally announced that he would pardon Wiranto if Wiranto were found responsible for the carnage in East Timor. A year and a half later, no moves have been made to prosecute Wiranto. On the critical issue of establishing accountability for abuses so that the violent policies of the past are not repeated, a near silence prevailed under Gus Dur.

Click to expand...

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2001/07/27/indone425.htm

As President, he didn't do too much to help Christian persecution, either, except to say forced Christian conversion to Islam is "not right."

A partial list of Christian persecution under Gus Dur's Presidency from Persecution.org.

December 24, 2000 -- Several churches were destroyed and at least 19 people were killed as bombs exploded in or near Christian churches all over the country. Several Catholic churches in Jakarta were targeted as well as churches in West Java, Batam Island, and Sumatra. By God’s grace many other bombs were discovered before they were able to detonate.

December 22, 2000 – President Abdurrahman Wahid publicly admitted the reality of forced Islamization, saying "There is an effort by Islamic extremists to convert Christians to Islam. This is not right."

December 18, 2000 – A team that was sent to Kasiui to investigate allegations of forced Islamization returned along with approximately 172 Christians who were then sent to refugee centers. The group consisted mainly of women and children. Many of the Christians were prohibited from evacuating. An estimated 800-1000 are still being held against their will. The team felt their investigations were hampered by the presence of Muslims while converts were questioned about whether they had come to Islam of their own free will.

December 8, 2000 – Muslim and Christian groups from Maluku met in Yogyakarta for "Baku Bae" (reconciliation talks). However, even if local Muslims want peace in Maluku, extremist factions are pushing to continue the jihad and some local Muslims have been threatened to continue the jihad or be killed themselves.

December 2, 2000 – Five men were wounded when residents of the Muslim neighborhood of Batumerah began firing mortars towards the Christian neighborhood of Mardika in Ambon.

December 1, 2000 – On Kasiui island teachers David Balubun and E. Rumatera were beheaded for refusing to convert to Islam.

November 23, 2000 – Four Christian villages on Kasiui island were attacked by the Laskar Jihad. While around 500 people fled to a neighboring island, at least 760 people fleeing into the woods were kidnapped by Muslims and held hostage. A survivor reported that most of the Christians were forced to convert to Islam while as many as 100 Christians died for refusing to recant their faith.

September 27, 2000 – The Civil State of Emergency called by President Wahid in June ended.

September 26, 2000 – Muslim men clad in white fired mortars on Christians in Hative Besar, killing at least 5 people and razing nearly 60 homes. Suli and Galala villages were also attacked by members of neighboring villages.

September 24, 2000 – The village of Hative Besar on the island of Ambon was attacked during Sunday service. At least 20 people were killed and several more were wounded.

September 20, 2000 – Muslim holy warriors swept across the island of Saparua in Maluku province, attacking the villages of Sirsori Islam, Ulat, Iha, Nolot, Ihamahu and Pia. These attacks resulted in the burning of several homes, the destruction of a church in Pia and one possible death.

September 17, 2000 – Christian Kaleb Situmorang was killed in a drive-by shooting in Medan. Mr. Situmorang was mistaken for Pastor Benjamin Munthe because he was driving the pastor’s car and wearing similar clothing. This was the third attempt on the life of Pastor Munthe, who also survived two attempted bombings. Mr. Situmorang was Pastor Munthe’s assistant and a member of the rapidly-growing Victorious Faith church.

Ongoing – Violence between Muslims and Christians began on January 19, 1999 during a dispute between a Christian bus driver and a Muslim passenger. Insiders say, however, that the incident simply provided the necessary catalyst for militant Muslims to instigate a premeditated plan of violence against Christians. As of February of 2001, an estimated 8,000 people have been killed in the resulting violence and at least 500,000 have been displaced.

Ongoing – As of December 2000 it is reported that as many as 5000 Christians have been forced to undergo Muslim conversion rituals to convert to Islam. Those refusing to embrace the Islamic faith are often beheaded. Their heads are then paraded around the village to strike fear into the hearts of other Christians.

Click to expand...

http://www.persecution.org/Countries/indonesia.html

Sorry, Ken, FTR is right. It's meant to tickle the itching ears of the naive. No kumbaya from me.

LadyEagle · Jan 1, 2006

Matthew 7:[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
[16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
[17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
[19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Right Islam vs. Wrong Islam

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Right Islam vs. Wrong Islam

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