Rightly dividing scripture & OSAS

[DQuixote]

Bob Ryan, in another thread, makes salvation conditional upon the perserverance of the individual. Among other citations, he cites Romans 11:22ff.

The warning there, however, clearly involves and identifies the nation of Israel and the world of Gentiles. It is not directed to the individual born-again authentic Christian believer.


Romans 11:24
"For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed (the availability of certain of God's promises in the NT), contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, (the Nation of Israel) which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?"

If God took that which was natural, broke it off, set it aside and grafted in we Gentiles, and He's been letting us as individuals participate in the offer of salvation by grace through faith, and then sees the Gentile world rejecting Him (as is happening today in the USA and around the world), he will end the church age and will graft national Israel back in. This is precisely what will happen after the church, the Body of Believers, has been raptured and the Great Tribulation has taken its toll (1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 is very encouraging for we born-again authentic Christian Believers. Here again, Paul is adddressed the "brethren," a group of Christian Believers.) Israel will be grafted back in, Peter will have the "keys to the Kingdom" of the 1,000 year reign on earth for the Jewish nation, with Jesus seated on the Throne of David. (So much for the idea that Peter was the first pope - the keys are to the Kingdom established for the 1,000 year reign).

For a reference, not for a binding contract on Christian Believers, see Jer_3:4-5; Jer_3:21-25; Jer_3:50.

.........and now to bed, you sleepy head.........

 

[LeBuick]

I'm not much on eschatology but Israel has a promise, do they not?

Who do you believe are the 144K (12K from each tribe)?

 

[BobRyan]

Here is the supposed "quote of Bob" that the OP speaks to -- find "BOB" in this.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.



Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able tograft them in again.


However one "bogus" solution for this debunking of OSAS is to "re-invent hell as purgatory" - hence the OP

#1. Who is the "YOU" in this text. "A Nation of Gentiles" who must "Fail as a nation" to be condemned in this way?

Do Roman gentiles have to confer with Chinese gentiles to see if the entire group of gentiles "is failing"???

OR is the OP suggesting that the Roman Gentiles and the Chinese Gentiles are now the new "Chosen nation" and that their nations could fail as did the nation of Israel?

2. What kind of logic is actually being used in the OP when denying that the letter of Paul is read by individuals acting as individuals would "reading scripture"??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DQuixote]

The 144,000 witnesses, LeBuick, are Jewish converts to Christianity who, during the Great Tribulation, will attempt to lead non-Christian Jews to Christ, as well as non-Christian gentiles trapped in the Trib. Those they win over will lose their life during the Trib, but not their eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is the gospel, pure and simple. Since it is the gospel, and since we have so many scriptural examples to go by in context, we know that the language here is not saying that salvation is contingent upon hanging on to it, about daily striving to stay saved, about wondering what our status is. On the contrary, the language here clearly indicates that we have to understand and know that we are believing because God is calling us, the Holy Spirit is witnessing to us; we have to know what and why we are believing in a spiritual confrontation with Christ, not a fleshly decision to "join the club," to impress others, or out of some self-righteous, egotistical motive.

Paul says it like this: if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. Too many people don't know what they believe. They don't know what they thought they believed. They can't remember (keep in memory) because they don't know what they believed! There are folks all over the south and midwest who, when asked about their standing before God, will respond with "I'm a babtist." They don't have a clue about salvation by grace through faith, the gift of God. They have some idea about what it means to be a Christian but can't put it into words. They just hope they've understood. They just hope they've got it right. And it isn't a conscious, day-by-day hope, it's put on the back burner. They may go forward in a service, get "babtized", with no idea what they are doing. They did it because a friend did it. They did it because Mom or Dad did it. They did it for recognition as a "good person." And after that they just forget it and go on about their day.

That's what Paul is talking about. In essence, he is saying "If you understand what I preached to you, unless you really don't", or "If you understood what I preached to you, unless you really didn't." It is so plain we are to believe the Gospel. Here is the Gospel that saves each of us in verses 3 and 4:

"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins, and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day." Where-when did he receive that? On the road to Damascus was where it all began. He received it from Jesus Himself, our Risen Lord! He sends Paul out to the Gentiles with the instructions that salvation comes from believing the Gospel. How shall they know without a preacher? How will they know if none is sent? Paul says, in effect, I'm not talking about the first five books of the Bible, I'm not talking about Jewish traditions, I'm not talking about some mystical formula, I'm talking about John 3:16-17, John 14:6, Romans 10:8-13, and all those other relevant scriptures. Paul says that Christ died for us, was buried, and He rose again. And he says "You can believe it!" Believing it results in a changed life for some instantly. For others, it takes a little longer. Bottom line, they are saved, sealed, sanctified, will be glorified, and will live with Him forever. Their status before God depends entirely upon what Jesus did, not upon some daily effort on our part. To say that we have to work for salvation is to deny the efficacy of His incredible sacrifice, Tetelestai! Amen!

 

[BobRyan]

Your argument is to try to spin Romans 11 into saying "IF you are someone who is saved and has faith you are fine -- but if you have no faith and were never saved at all then you REMAIN outside of Christ and REMAIN separated from the Gospel until you choose to accept Christ". Your message is "if saved you REMAIN so and should not fear. IF LOST then you REMAIN lost until the day comes when you choose faith"

But is Romans 11 talking to the UNSAVED who HAVE NO faith and is it calling them "TURN from their present course and to HAVE faith"??

Let's see -- may the objective unbiased reader find this to be incredibly easy to read.

Rom 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.


22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.[/b][/b]

 

[LeBuick]

The 144,000 witnesses, LeBuick, are Jewish converts to Christianity who, during the Great Tribulation, will attempt to lead non-Christian Jews to Christ, as well as non-Christian gentiles trapped in the Trib. Those they win over will lose their life during the Trib, but not their eternal life.!

So you believe there are only 144,000 Judeo Christians? Don't we begin counting them with Paul, Niccodemus and other disciples to include some of the 3000 at pentecost? 144,000 in all these years???

I admit this is not my strong subject but that's a hard pill to swallow.

 

[DQuixote]

12,000 from each of the 12 tribes will be chosen to witness during the Tribulation, LeBuick. They will be Jewish witnesses for Christ. Read Revelation. There are several references, but try Revelation 7 and Revelation 14 for starters.

As to Bob's response, the simple truth is that these passages tell the brethren the letter is written to, to declare 'whazup', "unless they believed in vain." When I was a kid my grandmother told me that taking the name of God in vain was profanity. Now I know that it means claiming to be a Christian without ever having acknowledged Christ as Savior. There are lots of folks like that today in various denominations. Ask them what they believe and they will respond with something like "I was baptized at birth." "I was confirmed at age 14." "I've been a good person all my life." "My daddy was a missionary, I'll have you know!"

The warning to the followers is that the time will come when the church age will end, as I have said. The rapture will snatch up the Body of Christ, not based upon an individual's works, but based upon His sacrifice. The day of the catching up is very close when one looks at the condition of those who claim to be Christian and who are not. The world is going to hell in a handbasket, as the saying goes. Counterfeits and frauds abound among so-called "Christian" groups. They have their reward. Once the church is gone, that dread and awful appearance of antichrist will be a fact, followed by the Great Tribulation, during which unsaved persons of every race, creed, color, national origin, and religion (Christianity is not a religion) will be challenged by the 144,000 on the one hand and satanic intervention on the other, God saving a remnant, then turning in grace to establish the Kingdom once offered to Israel and establishing the 1,000 year reign. The church will have been "cut off" and the Nation of Israel grafted back in to their own olive tree.

Romans 9:1 through 11:36 has been aptly titled "The Jewish Interlude" by dispensationalists. It is a parenthesis in the Book of Romans. It is written to Christians in Rome about Paul's great concern for his fellowmen, the Jews. The topic throughout is the Jews.

As EricB posted in another thread (and I read this after I posted the above):

To understand "believing in vain", we must remember that many people in the New Testament, beginning with the ministry of Jesus Himself while still here, were hastily accepting Christ, but they did not understand what the purpose of His mission was. So they "believed" (John 8:31), but eventually their true fruits surfaced (v.37ff). Most others of this class, while not disputing Jesus to His face would show their true colors when persecution would come and they quickly abandoned Him. It's in this context that we have all the scriptures on perseverance until the end. Like the others, these people "believed" and followed for the wrong reasons.

...............Many gentiles had also fallen into a similar misunderstanding or misuse as well. (Such as those described who would rise up and apostasize, drawing away their own following, thus using the Church for control). Yet if people "persevered" in faith, then it would have shown that they truly understood Christ's purpose (i.e. the true Gospel). Today we have many cults, liberals, etc. who "believe" in Christ, but knowingly twist or reject parts of the Bible; in effect creating a whole different concept of Christ (as different as the political Messiah of Israel), and most do not even speak of thinking they are "saved", or if they do, they make up their own idea of how to be saved (being good, keeping certain works, being baptized into their group, etc.). All of these are the people who "believed in vain", not someone who really believed they were saved, but fell into sin.

 

[Oasis]

Hi DQuixote,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts in this thread! It really lifted my spirits. :thumbs:

Besides the whole of Romans chapter 8, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is my favorite passage of Scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

Your argument is to try to spin Romans 11 into saying "IF you are someone who is saved and has faith you are fine -- but if you have no faith and were never saved at all then you REMAIN outside of Christ and REMAIN separated from the Gospel until you choose to accept Christ". Your message is "if saved you REMAIN so and should not fear. IF LOST then you REMAIN lost until the day comes when you choose faith"

But is Romans 11 talking to the UNSAVED who HAVE NO faith and is it calling them "TURN from their present course and to HAVE faith"??

Let's see -- may the objective unbiased reader find this to be incredibly easy to read.

Rom 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.


22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.[/b][/b]

Notice Paul NEVER questions the CURRENT belief - rather HE WARNS against ever TURNING FROM the CURRENT belief.

Some try to spin this into "if your current belief is genuine then pay no attention to this text because you need not fear nor worry about CONTINUING in that belief -- it just happens all by itself in that case".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[UnchartedSpirit]

Bob, the passage in question has nothing to do with salvation; nor did I say anything about salvation in respect to 1Cor.14. You have misrepresented me. If a woman disobeys that which is written in 1Cor.14, then obviously it is a matter of disobedience, not salvation. So, what are you trying to prove?

So disobediance won't send a Christian to hell? So then does turning away from belief not a form of disobedence? Otherwise, why does God hold that plus blaspheming as something unforgivable rather than someone who backslides or never gets free of a nasty habit?

 

[BobRyan]

Did you mean to post that on "this" thread?

 

[UnchartedSpirit]

I thought my question would deter from the topic which I took the quote from, and I didn't want to get any complaints about that...

 

[Amy.G]

The 144,000 witnesses, LeBuick, are Jewish converts to Christianity who, during the Great Tribulation, will attempt to lead non-Christian Jews to Christ, as well as non-Christian gentiles trapped in the Trib. Those they win over will lose their life during the Trib, but not their eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is the gospel, pure and simple. Since it is the gospel, and since we have so many scriptural examples to go by in context, we know that the language here is not saying that salvation is contingent upon hanging on to it, about daily striving to stay saved, about wondering what our status is. On the contrary, the language here clearly indicates that we have to understand and know that we are believing because God is calling us, the Holy Spirit is witnessing to us; we have to know what and why we are believing in a spiritual confrontation with Christ, not a fleshly decision to "join the club," to impress others, or out of some self-righteous, egotistical motive.

Paul says it like this: if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. Too many people don't know what they believe. They don't know what they thought they believed. They can't remember (keep in memory) because they don't know what they believed! There are folks all over the south and midwest who, when asked about their standing before God, will respond with "I'm a babtist." They don't have a clue about salvation by grace through faith, the gift of God. They have some idea about what it means to be a Christian but can't put it into words. They just hope they've understood. They just hope they've got it right. And it isn't a conscious, day-by-day hope, it's put on the back burner. They may go forward in a service, get "babtized", with no idea what they are doing. They did it because a friend did it. They did it because Mom or Dad did it. They did it for recognition as a "good person." And after that they just forget it and go on about their day.

That's what Paul is talking about. In essence, he is saying "If you understand what I preached to you, unless you really don't", or "If you understood what I preached to you, unless you really didn't." It is so plain we are to believe the Gospel. Here is the Gospel that saves each of us in verses 3 and 4:

"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins, and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day." Where-when did he receive that? On the road to Damascus was where it all began. He received it from Jesus Himself, our Risen Lord! He sends Paul out to the Gentiles with the instructions that salvation comes from believing the Gospel. How shall they know without a preacher? How will they know if none is sent? Paul says, in effect, I'm not talking about the first five books of the Bible, I'm not talking about Jewish traditions, I'm not talking about some mystical formula, I'm talking about John 3:16-17, John 14:6, Romans 10:8-13, and all those other relevant scriptures. Paul says that Christ died for us, was buried, and He rose again. And he says "You can believe it!" Believing it results in a changed life for some instantly. For others, it takes a little longer. Bottom line, they are saved, sealed, sanctified, will be glorified, and will live with Him forever. Their status before God depends entirely upon what Jesus did, not upon some daily effort on our part. To say that we have to work for salvation is to deny the efficacy of His incredible sacrifice, Tetelestai! Amen!

Great post! :thumbs:

 

[hillclimber1]

Great post! :thumbs:

Amen, DQuixote, great post.:godisgood:

 

[BobRyan]

When I review that list of OSAS debunking texts from scripture -

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1041638#post1041638

I have to admit - it is hard to believe that people would cling to OSAS "anyway".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In the case of Romans 11 who is the "YOU" that is being warned?

Russia? Some gentile "nation"??

OR "YOU" the one who "stands by your faith"???

Is Romans 11 talking to the UNSAVED who HAVE NO faith and is it calling them "TURN from their present course and to HAVE faith"??

Let's see -- may the objective unbiased reader find this to be incredibly easy to read.

Rom 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.


22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.[/b][/b]

 

[BobRyan]

So that means OSAS is man-made tradition and the warnings in scripture about the danger of losing salvation is correct doctrine.

 

[steaver]

Amen, DQuixote, great post.:godisgood:

Amen as well :wavey:

"regeneration".....understand this as you will understand OSAS!

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

So that means OSAS is man-made tradition and the warnings in scripture about the danger of losing salvation is correct doctrine.

The point is that you can not have forgiveness revoked and "still be saved anyway".

you can not be severed from Christ (John 15, Rom 11) and "be saved anyway".

you can not be "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4 and "still stay saved anyway".

you can not be "severed from christ" Gal 5:4 John 15, Rom 11 and still "be saved anyway".

Rather these are all the condition of being lost. The opposite of these conditions is "salvation".

in Christ,

Bob