Romans 1 or ABiogenesis: Pick one

[BobRyan]

In Romans 1 we find this -

Rom 1
Unbelief and Its Consequences

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress
the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.[/b]
20 For since [b]the creation of the world His invisible attributes[/b], His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. [/b]
21 For even though they knew God[/b], they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations,
and their foolish heart was darkened.


#1. God thinks the World itself was "created"
#2. God thinks the unbelieving pagans are presented with the "Invisible attributes of God CLEARLY SEEN in the THINGS that HAVE been MADE"
#3. The Divine nature INCLUDES "Intelligence" as the BASIS for all other attributes (Obviously).
#4. The foolish mind is darkened to the point of rejecting what they have no excuse for rejecting. (Recall that the fool starts out saying "There is NO God")

Now let's consider 3 groups.



Group 1. (Atheists who believe in the doctrines of Atheist Darwinism)

When debating between Christians and atheist darwinists over the topic of atheist darwinism - you will occassionally find a very very few atheist darwinists willing to abandon their primary rule "There is no God" long enought to honestly and objectively consider the evidence for God "Clearly Seen in the things that have been made".

But as a rule - Atheist Darwinism will insist that there is NO evidence at all of God "cearly seen by unbelievers" in the THINGS that have been made SINCE there "IS NO GOD". Romans 1 shows the role of the fool in doing that. Therefore for atheist darwinism science and nature can have NO feature/puzzle/ability whose "solution" or "author" is God. EVEN if you want to talk about living cells -- for Atheist Darwinists it is "Spontaneous Generation" from non-living matter -- (Abiogenesis) NOT "God did something"

Group 2. Evolutionists that accept Intelligent Design but not Christianity.

In fact that objective acceptance of "What is clearly seen" among non-Christians is precisely what we find in the evolutionists promoting "Intelligent desigh". It is a group that has given up on "There is NO GOD" but still cling to evolutionism. They claim you CAN clearly see the evidence of intelligence in the things that have been made. They NEED NO "abiogenesis" Myths about living cells popping into existence from non-living matter so they don't engage in such gross fictional "storytelling".


Group 3. Christians that compromise their faith with Atheist Darwinism.

But what about debating believers in "atheist darwinism" that are INSIDE the Christian church? What harm does atheism do when inserted into the Christian faith? After all the Anglican church, the Catholic Church, the Lutheran church, many Presbyterian churches -- And their teaching institutions teach Atheist Darwinism "as fact" as if it's beliefs and doctrines were "Science fact".

HAS that atheist doctrine had debilitating effects on the thinking of those who embrace such contradictions as atheist principles IN Christianity?

When you see these devotees to Atheist darwinist doctrines attacking non-Christian evolutionists who DO accept intelligent design, is this not "reverse-evangelism" coming from Christians?

Do we do right in providing safe-harbor for atheism? ("Safe harbor" as in passively accepting it's programs teachings among Christian leaders, institutions, expressing no interest in its progress or inroads into Christianity, making no effort to expose it - etc)

What say you?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

If one DOES decide to confront atheist darwinism INSIDE the Christian church - how do you do it?

Should we really go after the most speculative and still unnexplored frontiers of science and make that our plase to say "HERE is where truth is clearly seen" -- our staging ground for exposing the blunders of atheist darwinists? Isn't it MORE true that the lies and half truths of atheist Darwinism are best "hidden" and "disguised" when the list of "Knowns" are FEW??!!

Isn't it more reasonable to take them to CLEAR areas of science fact, logic and reason where all variables are fully exposed.

For example:

1. Romans 1 - vs the claims against Intelligent design. Here they are exposing themselves to the world as atheist darwinist taking a "distinctively atheist" position in opposition to Intelligent design. Thereby finding NO ROOM for Romans 1. This is easy to point out.

2. Statistics: This is a "hard science" unlike the junk-science of evolutionism. There is in fact no way to "mess with it" as they do with purely imaginative junk-science topics.

In this case it is easy to show that the complexity of life itself argues (statistically) against abiogenesis and atheist darwinism's need for a solution to that problem that fits their primary rule "There is no God".


3. Areas where Christian devotees to Atheist Darwinism become so compromised and so extreme in their cultish devotion to the doctrines of darwinism that they even oppose the "frank confessions" of actual Atheists who ADMIT to the blunders, Gaffs and flaws committed by atheist darwinism in the history and evolution of that system of junk-science and atheist religion.

 

[BobRyan]

D. James Kennedy had another good analysis of atheist darwinism today and the flawed argument for abiogenesis as noted by the Mathmatician Fred Hoyle.

 

[Helen]

Actually, it's "the Bible or abiogenesis...pick one..."

 

[BobRyan]

That is very true Helen. There are "some" on this board confused enough to call themselves "Theistic Evolutionists" but they believe in atheist darwinism not "GOD doing something in Creation".

Atheist darwinism NEEDs abiogenesis because it insists "There is no God".

But Romans 1 contends that even unbelieving pagans are "Without excuse" because the invisible attributes of God ARE CLEARLY SEEN - IN the things that have been MADE!

What a powerful testimony and affirmation of what God has done from the NT text!

Good to see you posting.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Those who believe in the myths associated with abiogenesis typically flee any reference to the Bible -- especially Romans 1!!

Romans 1 is not the friend of Darwinism because it exposes it as "Atheist".

Romans 1 is not the friend of those who bash the Intelligent Design guys - because it shows the ID-bashers to be arguing FOR atheism!!

 

[BobRyan]

The question is - will Christians stand by idle as Atheist Darwinism infects more denominations ?

 

[BobRyan]

Here we have the same thing as we see with the Purgatory thread VS the Word of God - and TRUTH -- you can not have BOTH!

In this case - atheism is SHOWN to be completely opposed to Romans 1 and the statement God makes about "What is CLEARLY SEEN by the unbelieving pagans in the THINGS that HAVE been made".

Why do those who bash Intelligent Design not defend their views in light of Romans 1?

 

[BobRyan]

God starts the child of God in Genesis 1.

If you are going to deny the Creator - then it is no wonder you would deny the Romans 1 fact that "can be clearly seen" even by unbelieving pagans. How can Christains knowingly downplay this attack on God's Word?

 

[El_Guero]

Bob

Are you being hard hearted again? Why won't you just let people die in their sin and go to judgement? That is what they want to do. They don't want you to help them.



Do you see "all those lonely people", do you "still wonder where they go"? Or do you hurt because you know where they will go?

God bless Bro'!

Wayne

 

[BobRyan]

I agree that the compromised Christian group that embraces atheism over the Bible really does not "want help".

But what I want to know is -- "how about the other Christians"? There is almost a "political correctness" like we see with the Gay agenda in some churches -- Where Bible believing Christians will not "Allow themselves" to address this problem inside the church.

 

[BobRyan]

Why not simply abandon the "Atheists doctrine" of abiogenesis that EVEN non-Christian Intelligent Design evolutionists reject??

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 1
Unbelief and Its Consequences

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


The subject context is the pagans, the wicked within mankind - those “without excuse” who “suppress the truth” who do not believe and are in bold opposition to all that God stands for. The point is that EVEN THEY “clearly see the invisible attributes of God IN the things that are made”!!

When you see a slug crawling on the floor you see its visible attributes – how it moves, how big it is, how slow etc. But what about it’s “invisible attributes”??

When you see a slug inching its way across the sidewalk do you ask “I wonder how loving and kind and gentle that slug is toward others”??

Probably not! It is unclear that the slug has enough intelligence to have such invisible “attributes”.

But the family dog may indeed appear to “have the intelligence” to be “kind and loving and gentle”. But is the family dog morally pure, merciful, just?? Well there again it is not clear that the family dog as the requisite “intelligence” to exhibit such “invisible attributes”.

The “most basic attribute” is intelligence. AT certain levels various other invisible attributes “are possible”.

When you see a Rembrandt or the equations of Einstein or Maxwell do you say “I don’t know that these guys had enough intelligence to understand and exhibit justice, mercy, morality” ?

Probably not. It is likely that you fully understand that they had the requisite intelligence for such invisible attributes.

Romans 1 What a defeat for atheist Darwinist evolutionism!

Step 1 you have to ADMIT that “things were MADE” by God.
Step 2 you have to admit that even pagans can “clearly SEE IN the things that are made” the “invisible attributes of God”.


Paul declares that what is Known about God is KNOWN through what He has made – “being clearly SEEN and understood through what has been MADE”.

His invisible attributes made known and “Clearly seen” by “what has been MADE” by God. (Not by what has evolved on its own – nothing else needed – fully explained WITHOUT God).

Not since “the evolution of the world” but since the “creation of the World”

Paul relies on the fact that God MADE that which we SEE rather than arguing it “simply evolved – from nothing and EVERY step is fully explained by the junk science of evolutionism”.

His conclusion” so they are without excuse” could not be true IF it is impossible to conclude that God actually MADE what we see.

 

[BobRyan]

One thing that is for sure - God's Word can be trusted even when the traditions of man "prefer" the atheist darwinist doctrines that say God "DID NOT create the World in six days and rest on the seventh day".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

On a board like this almost every statement of scripture - every basic principle of the Gospel will be challenged.

In this case - Genesis 1-2:3 and Exodus 20:8-11 claim that God created this World, the Sun and the Moon and all life on this planet in 6 literal days (equated with the days of the week at Sinai in Exodus 20) and rested on the 7th day.

But the response of some on this very board is in the form "oH did He really? I doubt that He did that just as it is stated". They prefer the teachings of atheist darwinism over the Bible in that specific case.

When God says "God is Love" some on this board will say "Oh is He really? Well only toward the FEW that He arbitrarily selects for heaven." They prefer the teachings of limited Gospel, limited Love, Limited God over "God so loved the WORLD that He gave..."

When God says "The Sabbath was MADE for mankind" some on this board say "Oh was it really? Surely not!"

When God says the resurrection in the future that takes place at the Rev 19 event is accompanied by the "FIRST resurrection" which takes place at that time - and then 1000 years occurs before the next resurrection "event" -- that too is seriously questioned.

Some would even argue that we should not follow the Words of Christ spoken prior to the Cross because they are simply wrong-ideas meant for the "Old Covenant" of death.

It seems at times that there is no point of scripture that is not open for debate and question.

In Christ,

Bob