Romans 10.14

I thought it might help stimulate the discussion to show following verses that shed light on it, IMO. I don't normally use Young's Literal Translation but I like it here.

This is actually the part that I find interesting.

`to all the earth their voice went forth, and to the ends of the habitable world their sayings.'

 

I don't know if I should call you Bro Dallas or froggie.

Anyway Bro. Dallas.. They cannot, that includes the elect also does it not....

I would answer more, but i'll follow you....

 

Can you call upon someone or something that you do not believe exists? Why?

You can only call upon that which you believe in!

Pretty basic!

 

God calls, we hear. Some believe the evidence offered, some do not believe. All that believe the evidence do not believe unto faith. Faith being a desire and will to obey, love and trust. Everyone that believes the word are not saved. We are saved when we submit, volitionally, not irresistibly.

Can you not see that the will of man is unaffected until God act’s upon it. He just does not act irresistibly. Salvation is still all of God, none of man. Condemnation is because of man’s refusal to submit. He has the opportunity before him, he rejects the offer of the only begotten son of God. He is therefore justly judged unworthy of salvation. Does God love him? Yes. Is his demise part of God’s plan? NO!! Is he rejected before the foundations of the world? NO!! He is rejected in time, when his rejection becomes irreversible, he is condemned.

God is in no hurry to get him into hell, God is perfectly patient, not willing that any should perish. God will judge no man before the time. There is no elect group headed to heaven, unless they have made a volitional confession of faith and submission to God. God is the initiator of all…

Calvin looses it at irresistible grace and predestined salvation...

 

I am not trying to antagonize you but how can you believe this and not embrace open theism? If man truly has free will then God cannot possibly foreknow their choice. For if He can foreknow it and He is omnipotent then He can change the choice. Whether you believe God will or won't "violate man's free will", the fact that He has that ability negates man's free will from the equation.

Under such a premise, God makes plans regarding the history of the world based on His expectation that certain people will "choose" to be saved and others will not. If someone truly had the free will to make a different choice then God must subordinate His will to man's. This makes the each individual sinner sovereign over history with God reacting to the whims of men.

 

Or God works both inside and out of time, allowing God to both know the future and allow man a completely free choice. We see a God in the Bible who does command one thing, and then relents based upon man's actions. We see a God who also knows the beginning and end of time. Because we see both sides of God, it seems foolish to limit him to one or the other. Just because God knows what will happen does not mean that He made it happen.

This subordination only occurs if man making a different choice was not permitted by God. If, instead, God allows man to determine various things about his (lowercase) salvation, his path in life, and such, then God is not subordinate to anyone. God allows man such volition.

Both of your examples are false dilemmas. Neither is an either-or proposition.

 

It is being supposed by some of our Calvinist bretheren that IF God draws all men unto Him by the voice of nature itself (as Romans 10 argues) - that possibly this voids God's work in enabling the lost sinner to respond and to "hear My voice and Open the door" of the heart.

The test case is Romans 10 - so lets "see" if God is highlighting unniversal "appeal" and "Drawing" or IF He is pointing out "arbitrary selection" as some Calvinist suppose.

Saved - Salvation to those who BELIEVE. The fact that one who BELIEVES and is saved will CONTINUE to read and study and obey - does not abolish the fact of salvation
JUST as stated above - at the time we believe.

(Ps 19 is quoted here)

“THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”


The full text is as follows


1 The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
2 Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.
4 Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.
In them He has placed a tent for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber;
It rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 Its rising is from one end of the heavens,
And its circuit to the other end of them;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.


Clearly Paul is appealing (AGAIN) to NATURE's voice in DECLARING the
truth of God - so that "they (the people - Jew and Gentile) DID HEAR" - fulfilling the
condition -- Vs 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

And this - is in perfect agreement with the opening context of the book of Romans - chapter 1.

Clearly - they are without excuse BECAUSE God DID manifest Himself as described in the text and STILL they refused the God that "DRAWS ALL MEN unto Him".

So although Paul points to the witness of God's creation in Ps 19 as proving that
Israel is "without excuse" and DID have the opportunity to "BELIEVE" - He also points to the motive of Jealousy as God's witness to non-Hebrew people results in salvation.

Indeed - God's chosen race, royal priesthood, holy nation - seemed to be rebelling against the God that called them, that chose them - IN SPITE of the witness we see proclaimed in the OT and in Psalms 19 regarding creation itself.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 01, 2002, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Based upon the action of Christ on the Cross. Not man's action, if God determines anything according to man's action he is subordinating Himself to man.</font>[/QUOTE]How does your statement follow mine? The OT is full of instances where man determined his own destiny, even when God said otherwise.

Not if he chooses to allow man a choice. Then he is not relenting to any man, he actively chose to give man a choice. Your reasoning is faulty.

 

That's right. All throughout the old testament men are given choices to follow God. they are given choices and they are presented with the reprocusions of not doing as God Commanded.

Really?? That's interesting Philosophy.. what do you do with the Case of Ninevah?

God SAID He would destroy the city. that was his decree. 40 days..city would be overthrown

The people heard what jonah said they belived what he said they then Repented and God Spared them.

"and God saw THEIR works that THEY turned from their evil way: and GOD REPENTED of the evil that he said he would do unto them and he did it not."

Jonah Prayed and said "I knew thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil"

God didn't make them repent he was going to destroy them. they chose to repent God Spared them.. as it was true in the case of Ninevah so is it true in the case of the sinner.

Choice is there despite the depravity of man.

[ November 01, 2002, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: shilo ]

 

So basically what you guys are saying is that God does not accomplish His will. He waits to see what man will do then reacts???

 

It is not a coincidence that Open Theism, the idea that God learns as time goes on, comes from Arminians...